Good News!

Started by Jack, April 17, 2010, 12:54:52 am

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FrankB

yup.

IF there's any money left, I would add a very silent cooler. The stock one is crazy when it goes full throttle - and you are going to hear it at full speed when rendering! I went for the Noctua cooler. It has very good cooling performance, large fans and goes slow and silent. Mind you, you have to have a spacey case for it to fit though.
It's only 50 Euro, so pretty affordable and got great ratings from users: http://www.alternate.de/html/product/CPU_Luefter/Noctua/NH-U12P_SE2/367523/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Cooling&l2=CPU-K%C3%BChler

Frank

piggy

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 04:19:04 am
Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 02:46:47 am
Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 01:10:45 amor is it worth upgrading the cpu to this?
http://www.elive.co.nz/intel-core-i7-920-cpu-sy2114.php
i7 920 costs about USD100 more than AMD Phenom 955. If I were you I would rather use that money to up my RAM because i7 920 doesn't run that much faster than the Phenom 955.

I am assuming you do not OC your processor.
I disagree. What on earth would he want with more than 8GB right now? I am assuming the main hardcore use case for this machine is rendering with TG2, in which case it can't consume more than 4 GB at once, until the 64bit version come out, but nobody knows when that will be. Over time, RAM always got cheaper in the past 20 years, so pre-investments are futile.
Also - although I haven't taken the time to find a proof - the i7 should be much faster in rendering than the AMD. The 920 can also be slightly overclocked, although I don't find that necessary, as the i7 is really pretty fast anyway.

Frank
If he is only going to use his entire computer to run only TG2, then you are correct. 4GB is enough.

Over time RAM price will go down, again you are correct. But over how long?

Don't you ever forget that RAM prices go through a 3 year up, 3 year down cycle. The last downward price cycle ended at the end of 2009. Which means, price will only go up and up and up and peak somewhere until sometime 2012.

Wetbanana, are you willing to wait that long for the RAM price to come down?
Quote from: domdib on April 17, 2010, 04:44:04 amYes, remember the core i7 has hyperthreading, so it's effectively like having an 8 core processor. I don't think the AMD has (but please, correct me if I'm wrong)
Remember hyperthreading only works on programs that are hyperthreading aware !

And the 4-core CPU = 8 core with hyperthreading is very misleading. All evidence tell us that the "hyperthreaded core" are about 35% more, which means, a 4-core CPU with hyperthreading works out about 4 X 1.35 or about a little bit more than 5 cores.

But then you are correct again, 5 cores are still better than 4 cores. If that extra core worth USD 100 more, and Wetbanana is willing to pay for it, so much the better.

domdib

TG2 is hyperthreading aware, although I think you have to tell it to use a minimum of 8 threads.

freelancah

With core i7 920 he should get 6 gb of ddr3. 3x2gb sticks. Otherwise the 3 channel benefit goes to waste

FrankB

Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 05:36:59 am

Over time RAM price will go down, again you are correct. But over how long?

Don't you ever forget that RAM prices go through a 3 year up, 3 year down cycle. The last downward price cycle ended at the end of 2009. Which means, price will only go up and up and up and peak somewhere until sometime 2012.


yes there are certain peaks, but they don't last 3 years. Check this out, it's not easy to digest, but I wouldn't worry :)
(apart from the fact that RAM technologies change. You might buy DDR3 today, but what do you need in 3 years for a new PC? )

Regards;
Frank

piggy

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 08:45:08 am
Quote from: piggy on April 17, 2010, 05:36:59 amOver time RAM price will go down, again you are correct. But over how long?

Don't you ever forget that RAM prices go through a 3 year up, 3 year down cycle. The last downward price cycle ended at the end of 2009. Which means, price will only go up and up and up and peak somewhere until sometime 2012.
yes there are certain peaks, but they don't last 3 years. Check this out, it's not easy to digest, but I wouldn't worry :)
(apart from the fact that RAM technologies change. You might buy DDR3 today, but what do you need in 3 years for a new PC? )

Regards;
Frank
"The ongoing DRAM shortage is causing a panic among PC makers, which now have less than one month of inventory, according to Nanya Technology spokesperson Pei-Lin Pai speaking at the company's recent investors conference. The chip shortage has even affected shipments of some first-tier PC vendors, Pai pointed out."

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20100414PD215.html

I should know about the DRAM market. I am one of the purchasers dealing with DRAM manufacturers for one of the major PC maker, and currently we have about 6 week inventory left. :)

Henry Blewer

Good news indeed!

Buy the best processor and power supply you can afford now. Everything else can be upgraded as time passes. This has worked well for me. My five year old Dell is able to handle everything I have thrown at it, though slowly these days.
http://flickr.com/photos/njeneb/
Forget Tuesday; It's just Monday spelled with a T

FrankB

Hi Piggy, I truly believe that you truly believe what you are saying. No doubt about that.

There was this one story that crossed the wires a few years back, about a factory that was destroyed by a fire, and I recall that the market and experts and journalists were panicking about the chip prices and because of the reduced production capacities. In the end nothing much happened to the prices that had last long. That's my outsider view of the story. Sometimes it's interesting to hear an outsiders, non expert view. That is also true for the software industry, that I am familiar with, but that discussion would lead us somewhere else. Anyway, that's why I'm saying all this, and because of the fact that indeed prices for memory (and computing power) are ever decreasing, if you look at a long enough time period.

As an outsider, I would think, like with that fire a few years back: if there's ever increasing demand, sombody will arise to meet this demand, and the market will regulate and calm down again relatively quickly. Maybe the current producers would just build another plant, or extend their existing ones, or switch to producing 24 hours (if they don't already, or another chip facility in another country will see reason to grow and produce for masses... whatever. And why would that be so? My view is that once supply is cut short, prices rise, and that provides incentive enough for someone to stand up and try to make money from it.
This is why I don't buy in to the panick, from a consumer stand point, whereas I realize that the threat is real for business that are part of the supply chain, as they might experience a temporary break down. The consumer would just sit and wait a little bit longer, that's all.

Hope you don't mind my humble point of view, and I am not attempting to step on your toe.

Cheers,
Frank

Jack

thanks for the help guys
my budget is about 1500nzd so around 1050usd
(my Grandad is paying for my new rig as its for education ;D)

My terragen gallery:
http://wetbanana.deviantart.com/

Jack

would this be a good cpu fan?
http://www.elive.co.nz/cooler-master-v8-fan-p2016.php

If i include some of my own saving the budget will be about 2000nzd
My terragen gallery:
http://wetbanana.deviantart.com/

piggy

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 12:53:42 pmHi Piggy, I truly believe that you truly believe what you are saying. No doubt about that.

There was this one story that crossed the wires a few years back, about a factory that was destroyed by a fire,
Ah !

I know which one. :) That factory in Japan which made the ceramic that is used to seal the chips.

Indeed those experts were alarmed and told the world how disastrous it was for the chip industry world wide. But then those so-called "experts" are not "experts", they are "columnists", meaning, they earn money not by being in-the-field but by WRITING STUFFS about the industry.

Those so-called "experts" didn't know, back then, that there were more than enough inventory in the channels to last 2 years. :)

But this time, my dear friend, it's different.

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 12:53:42 pmAs an outsider, I would think, like with that fire a few years back: if there's ever increasing demand, sombody will arise to meet this demand,
I am not disputing what you said as it's true.

However, in this case, we need to deal with the timeline problem.

Building a fab takes years.

And the last price fall cycle for DRAM had bankrupted 40% of the DRAM manufacturers.

2 manufacturers in Europe completely closed shop, with their fabs and their equipments sold to buyers in China, Taiwan and elsewhere. And those equipments are being used to produce SOLAR PANELS, not DRAM.

2 more DRAM manufacturers in Taiwan also faced bankrupcy. One has opted out of commodity DRAM market and is concentrating on specialized memory products, and the other one has sold 80% of its equipments to other manufacturers.

Which means, there are only 60% of the original capacity remaining to make DRAM.

But this gets worse.

As 3 DRAM manufacturers in Taiwan, the ones that survive intact, have opted to shift some of their manufacturing lines to make NOR Flash chips instead.

NOR Flash chips price is skyrocketting, much more than DRAM. The spot price for NOR Flash chips have soared over 400% since last December, and is still going up and up and up, thanks to the demand from the Mobile Phone market, the IPad market, the SSD market, and so on.

Taking into account what is happening, only 48% of previous capacity is actually devoted into making DRAM today.

Why no expansion?

Well ... two fold.

1. No new DRAM fabs are being build.

2. The Immersion Technology equipments are in very very short supply.

As the lithography of chips goes down beyond 50nm, they need to use very very deep ultraviolet light to do the lithography.

And to make that work, they need to do it all immersed under water.

And to do that, you need new equipments, the immersion technology equipments and those are in very very short supply.

Which means, even if in existing fabs they have the space for the new equipments, they still can't do anything right now because there is not enough new immersion technology equipment for them to make the new chips.

All that mean one thing - all the 2nd tier DRAM manufacturers have to make do with old 63nm technology to produce DRAM and it's costing them a lot.

Unless of course someone got BILLIONS and BILLIONS to spend that they can buy up GlobalFoundries from the Middle Eastern fellas and turn all the capacity into producing DRAM instead.

But sadly that's not happening. :)

The earliest increase production for DRAM that I can foresee is in 2nd quarter, 2011.

Henry Blewer

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 06:57:03 pm
would this be a good cpu fan?
http://www.elive.co.nz/cooler-master-v8-fan-p2016.php

If i include some of my own saving the budget will be about 2000nzd


Looks like it will do the job. The important thing about a CPU cooling system is the contact between the heatsink and the chip.
http://flickr.com/photos/njeneb/
Forget Tuesday; It's just Monday spelled with a T

rcallicotte

Pretty good idea.  And get a recognized name by shopping on Newegg and seeing what rates well.

Quote from: wetbanana on April 17, 2010, 02:54:10 am
I will get about a 600w i think
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

PabloMack

Quote from: FrankB on April 17, 2010, 04:19:04 am
I disagree. What on earth would he want with more than 8GB right now?


One instance of TG2 rendering and another one to model with might use more than 4 GB in Windows 7-64. 

Oshyan

I agree that getting a solid PSU is key. Brand is at least as important as overall wattage. Good brands are Enermax, Antec, CoolerMaster, Silverstone, and a few others. You may pay a bit extra there but it's worth it.

For the CPU I'd consider an i7 860. Actually clocked slightly higher than the 920 and in many cases cheaper. The only potential disadvantage is dual channel vs. triple channel memory, and a different CPU socket that changes your upgrade options. In actual benchmarks the 860 is usually either as fast or faster than the 920. If the 920 beats 860 for price where you're buying, then it may be the better purchase, but you should also note that the motherboards for the 860 are cheaper, which should factor in to your decision.

For RAM, I think 8GB is a good point to aim for, just make sure you get at least 2GB modules (4GB modules are usually too expensive still anyway). With 4 (typical) RAM slots for a dual channel system you'd max out at 8GB anyway. With a triple channel you usually have 6 slots so 12GB is the ceiling with 2GB DIMMs. Being triple channel, 2x3GB is your other best option there, which is only 6GB, so in that case I might recommend going all the way for 12GB. Again this could be seen as an advantage for the 860 since you can get a nice middle ground at 8GB, which I would say is something of a "sweet spot" for price vs. practicality.

- Oshyan