Am I the only person who senses that a handful of people are TG2 geniuses and I'm missing something? <boo-hoo> Anyway, seriously we have some great talents on this site and I'm worried that I need a class. I took the beginner's class awhile ago, but I think someone needs to give a serious explanatory of the basics of the raw materials of TG2 (not beginner's stuff), perhaps basics of the functions, and particularly basics of the pixel-world understanding we have here on Planetside's forums. This could be gladly in a classroom for $$ I'm willing to pay. I really believe this would help me to understand this beautiful application.
If I'm not the only one who feels this sense of "just coping" with TG2, please join me in asking Planetside to either create some educational courses (for what I explained above) or let us know where we can go for this sort of understanding.
For example, when Volker and Project X took off with their recent discoveries (and generous offerings on this site) of strata and canyons, wow! I want to understand how they got there and both are anything but stingy with their knowledge. They're very helpful, in fact. But, the challenge is knowing even how to ask about some of the minutiae of information that is the basis of these two bright men's knowledge.
Quote from: calico on July 24, 2007, 03:04:37 PM
Am I the only person who senses that a handful of people are TG2 geniuses and I'm missing something? <boo-hoo> Anyway, seriously we have some great talents on this site and I'm worried that I need a class. I took the beginner's class awhile ago, but I think someone needs to give a serious explanatory of the basics of the raw materials of TG2 (not beginner's stuff), perhaps basics of the functions, and particularly basics of the pixel-world understanding we have here on Planetside's forums. This could be gladly in a classroom for $$ I'm willing to pay. I really believe this would help me to understand this beautiful application.
If I'm not the only one who feels this sense of "just coping" with TG2, please join me in asking Planetside to either create some educational courses (for what I explained above) or let us know where we can go for this sort of understanding.
For example, when Volker and Project X took off with their recent discoveries (and generous offerings on this site) of strata and canyons, wow! I want to understand how they got there and both are anything but stingy with their knowledge. They're very helpful, in fact. But, the challenge is knowing even how to ask about some of the minutiae of information that is the basis of these two bright men's knowledge.
You said the words i have been thinking about since i visit this forum :-\ if i compare my stuff to stuff other people make,i feel ashamed :-\ xD
I don't think we should feel ashamed. Everything is where we are right now. That's why I want a class - to get us to a place of understanding. If I thoroughly understand this application, then I can make it work. It's deep. I believe the grasp will take awhile. For example, look at Oshyan, Jo, and Matt. These guys know it inside and out and are still learning. It would be good to have a tiered grasp of knowledge.
Maybe a library set written by Oshyan and authored by Jo and Matt. --> THIS WOULD BE AWESOME and I'd pay good money for it. I'm pretty sure Oshyan knows what I'm talking about, after having seen his ability to communicate on this site.
The ashamed part wasnt serious :P The problem is that not everyone can pay for it, when people are underaged (like me) or they just dont have the financial power to do it.
Good point, mavcat.
Both things are possible - online tutorials and the books I'm talking about.
Please, someone listen.
To be fair, there's a lot of free knowledge running around here if someone has the energy and time to figure it all out. Many generous souls enter these learned halls :P Nevertheless, the level of understanding could be enhanced beyond scientific microscopic studies of the spores of TG2 (read Jo and Matt and Oshyan here) to bringing it to view so that those of us who are dedicated and unlearned can breed some of our own beauties with understanding. Eh?
What about making our own info? Search the web,look for info and gather it in 1 place?
I don't care ...
whether to make a book, a class or a couple of tutorials :D
@mavcat - That's not a bad idea, but the info is fairly easy to find. It's the putting it all together in a cohesive package, like I think Oshyan can do (I keep picking on him for good reason) alongside Matt and Jo who could fill these volumes with their knowledge as a reference, that I believe could really be an end-all for a foundational grasp of the way this all works as well as a handy reference from its founders.
@volker - Dude, I've mentioned something about you and someone else I can't remember on this site who could put together something and maybe even get it sanctioned by Planetside that could take us beyond the beginning stages. Understanding where the Atmosphere tab is and how to put clouds into the scene by using the Atmospheric section and nodes is good to know, when we don't know anything about TG2. But, to understand how to use a function to shape the clouds like ngen did takes understanding. That's where I think you and some others could help many of us.
Quote from: Volker Harun on July 24, 2007, 03:55:11 PM
I don't care ...
whether to make a book, a class or a couple of tutorials :D
Can i buy you as a personal teacher? ;D
@ Calico,sounds as a good idea :)
You have a great idea. I already asked this and the reply I got is that it is too much to put together, just ask questions. I don't think I am that advanced to ask intelligent questions as I might not know how to implement the answer. I can make basic scenes, but I can't seem to comprehend the X Y Z of it, so I have problems with placing objects. I am going to try to register in a TG2 course offered by LVS Associates. Has anyone had experience with this outfit ? I love TG2 otherwise. Normhol.
I took the TG2 for Beginners class from them and found it helped to place the pieces in a sufficient order to understand the necessary basics of the application. This was a good experience. I'm hoping for something more from them in the future.
Quote from: normhol on July 24, 2007, 04:44:20 PM
You have a great idea. I already asked this and the reply I got is that it is too much to put together, just ask questions. I don't think I am that advanced to ask intelligent questions as I might not know how to implement the answer. I can make basic scenes, but I can't seem to comprehend the X Y Z of it, so I have problems with placing objects. I am going to try to register in a TG2 course offered by LVS Associates. Has anyone had experience with this outfit ? I love TG2 otherwise. Normhol.
Hay all,
I'll wade in a bit here I think.
I agree with all of you as I have seen where people are floundering with making it work for them and they have gotten so used to using TG v 09 and this is not the same beast by any means. Yes in some ways it is brain surgery, but in others easy to understand from other basic apps I have used over the last few years. What I think is the most confusing and also the most powerful is the nodes and how they work.
I underestimated them when I first started working in tgd2 and almost got burned bad by my own stupidity and have since learned and working on growing from my mistake at the start. I as well need and am looking deeper into nodes and a cool feature using nodes the .tgc files we have been passing around in the forums. By the way you can stick them all kinds of places for all kinds of effects I am finding and having a gas figuring it all out myself on my spare time.
I also think us doing contests and sharing different ways of doing the contests, EXAMPLE: the Orbital render contest that MeltingIce hosted was a great place to learn about planets and how to get different kinds of effects. So helping on the renderosity terregan forums would help people. Also I think someone who has allot of time on there hands could start to garner all the data of all these posts and fixes and or Work arounds and maybe get it all into one huge place. I was hoping Brother MeltingIce would take that on, but when school let out, so did he ROTFL hahaha lolol. I would volenteer, but there ain't enough hours in the day for me to do what I need to and help out in that way with the tgd2 tutorial gathering. But I would be on hand to help make more tgd2 contests and will get on it right away if I have some help and someone tell me how to get it all set up. That would help us allot just to work in it more.
I agree with you all though, it would be nice to be able to get into a book with the deep end in mind for the people that have gotten past the beginning levels of tgd2. I am sure they will get that end of this all when they release the final version and it is kinda done, lololol then maybe we see a more indepth Tutorilas, but they are still trail blazing it like us in some ways /chuckles.....Ya and I am trying to get the duckets to buy the fukll version myself, maybe for my Birthday in December I get a copy /winks. But I would also like to see planetside give full versions to people for winning the tgd2 contests if they do not have a full version yet, and I am sure that would get all of you working harder at learning this wonderful software more if you could get a full version and a set to the party, don't ya think? I know I do. hahaha.
I been planning to contact their PR dept, as that is a idea I have heard they were doing for a while until it went under, server or something not sure bout that part, but hay we sure could use that here on the main forums and on Renderosity I think. OK out of the water and drying off, that was my idea and take about all this. I work with Oshyan sometimes and we have http://texturesource.org (http://texturesource.org) is our joint website, and that boy is hella busy, not sure if he could get the time to do what you ask Calico, but I agree, he would be a good choice for doing it and he is a master in so many ways besides tgd2. By the way I know this is shamless, but if you have not been there you should go and share your textures and grab some new ones, we put it together for you guys and we have been so busy it has been running itself for Months. hahaha, just remember to register in both places and get some killer Textures from me, Monks, and many other good friends.
DeathTwister
The most practical/ feasible option may be user-contributed tutorials in the documentation. While I'm no TG master I have managed to put out the odd good image using background knowledge from other areas of my expertise. I have planned to write some tutorials from the tests I have run as well as posting the results of various tests, and figured that the best place for them would be in the documentation section of this forum.
The biggest problem is finding the time, which is why many of my plans get put on hold while other ideas are developed. The other reason why I've held off writing tutorials is that a lot of the stuff I have developed has included workarounds for current problems which will be fixed prior to the release, or hacks that may not necessarily work in the final release (or could be done more effectively in a different way). I still intend to write some tutorials... I just can't promise when for now.
@DT - This forum has loads of wonderful assistance, wisdom, and generosity and if what I've said seems to detract from it, then to HELL with that. I'm so overwhelmed at the flood of good knowledge here that this is what has actually brought me to the place of saying this. So, it's not because of any lack here. It's because I want to see this is in a manual somewhere that includes users from this forum giving their best tutorials and includes Oshyan's voice throughout (with Jo and Matt explaining the way it works in the reference).
@bigben - Thank you for all of your help. It has been you and others here who have been willing to show us what they're doing that has led us to understand so much that I'm overwhelmed. That's a great thing, Ben. So saying you don't have time for a tutorial is like saying the ocean doesn't have time to go swimming.
Just because I want something doesn't make it so, but I'd really love seeing this -
Oshyan authors a set of manuals. Beginning. Intermediate. Advanced. Matt and Jo are the reference in all and the final volume is written by all three - a final thick total Bible of TG2 technology and understanding. Somewhere in the first three volumes could include user tutorials from this forum from people who have been asked by Planetside to do something. If this didn't rock and catch our house on fire, then my user name isn't calico.
In case anyone wonders what sparked this, it was when moodflow explained his canyon maker TGC and mentioned something about how the white and black pixels worked. It was then that I realized I understood enough to be dangerous. I really want to understand this application, God help me.
I'd love to find a decent lighting tutorial. I come from a game creation background, and lighting there can best be described as comical. I see some works on here that look amazing simply because of the lighting.
Hay guys,
QuoteIn case anyone wonders what sparked this, it was when moodflow explained his canyon maker TGC and mentioned something about how the white and black pixels worked. It was then that I realized I understood enough to be dangerous. I really want to understand this application, God help me.
Oh wow could you shoot us a link? I seemed to have missed that one. Thanks Cali.
Quote@DT - This forum has loads of wonderful assistance, wisdom, and generosity and if what I've said seems to detract from it, then to HELL with that. I'm so overwhelmed at the flood of good knowledge here that this is what has actually brought me to the place of saying this. So, it's not because of any lack here. It's because I want to see this is in a manual somewhere that includes users from this forum giving their best tutorials and includes Oshyan's voice throughout (with Jo and Matt explaining the way it works in the reference).
Oh yes it does I agree whole heartedly with you there Calico /smile. And I didn't mean to imply if I did, your art and work and Knowledge is awesome I have found over the time I have known you. I was mainly talking about in general what I have heard and seen in Contests from people talking and so on, forums, and so on it seems there are allot of people that are having trouble with the learning curve is all, and I agree that a good help file and a better area for Tutorials would be a huge boon to all of us.
OMG I have learned what I know with everyones helps and posts here myself, and scene files to actually look at to see how it all goes together, so yes yes, it would be a very good thing to have some kind of learning help that at this time does not seem to be what the end user needs, and could use much more help then has been set forth so far. But I bet Planetside is is well aware of that, and has decided for now to center of getting a good product out first, then the right learning info second considering I bet it changes from one build to another, kinda hard to set things in stone maybe atm?. I think. /looks a bit confused here....haha.
Good post here and good questions. I would like to see more node stuff and stuff on the .tgc files more, they are awesome to play with and seem to have huge posabilitys in what they can do and it looks like they have more power then I first thought from the basic concepts.
DT
Hmm I actually had a dream last night where I was looking at a large format (I think it was A4 Landscape) colour Terragen reference book, lots of screen shots and articles written by the guys at the cutting edge of the field. The point is that tutorial books written by software developers are rarely as good as the books written by the artists who actually use the product. Its like Planetside has designed a beautiful new kitchen, were the cooks who will make our masterpieces within it and Planetside may be able to help in some areas (wheres the mixer, oven etc) but the rest is up to us, the cooks. I'm sure once TG2 is launched in its final state there will be many books available but untill then we just gota figure it out bit by wonderfull bit and who knows the authors of my dream book may well be part of this forum now.
Richard
Quote from: calico on July 24, 2007, 10:33:28 PM
In case anyone wonders what sparked this, it was when moodflow explained his canyon maker TGC and mentioned something about how the white and black pixels worked. It was then that I realized I understood enough to be dangerous. I really want to understand this application, God help me.
Hi Calico, I don't think it was me who did the canyon maker? But alot has happened in the past. I've learned a TON from this site.
A class would sure be a good thing. But I will tell you folks one thing... this application hasn't even TOUCHED what it can do yet! We are all still experimenting. The node-based network design is amazing in the fact that it can be used in ways even the creators could never forsee. So there will be things even they never knew would be possible.
If I could pass on one tip, it would be this:
Never settle, and experiment as much as possible with aspects you want to master! I sometimes spend a solid day working out solutions for aspects I want to master in TGTP. And with this, I am building a huge toolset of clip files. I'll definitely share some of these as time goes on and they are dialed in. Hopefully others will want to share theirs as well.
With this large tool set, as time goes on, images will become easier and faster to make, with better effects.
the link - http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=1266.msg18481#msg18481 (this was ProjectX and not moodflow - apologies)
I would much rather Planetside comes up with its product before documentation. I guess I'm ready for the manual and it's time to be patient and wait. I can wait.
Quote from: DeathTwister on July 25, 2007, 11:28:30 AM
Hay guys,
Oh wow could you shoot us a link? I seemed to have missed that one. Thanks Cali.
DT
Thanks Calico for the link brother. yes there are lots of tutorials and discussions on the forums, and I agree with everyone above bout all this. Woohoo I go check another tut out /winks I love learning this software it is hella fun to figure out, kinda like a good puzzle on a rainy day only we get to play every day /smiles...
DT
cyphyr: ,-)
A very good point!
This is definitely an important subject and one that is not necessarily simple to resolve. There are many questions, such as where does Planetside's obligation begin and end, what is reasonable to expect of the user community, and what of commercially motivated authors and artists who may also write such materials on their own and for their own benefit?
For Planetside's part I can say we intend to provide a full set of documentation of Terragen 2. However what this entails is not necessarily what everyone wants or expects. We will cover, at a minimum, the full range of controls and settings, the overall UI, basic scene construction and a full node reference describing the specific functions and settings of each node. This does not necessarily cover how to accomplish any specific effect, an undertaking which would be extremely daunting if you were to attempt being really comprehensive. An advanced scene creation section may be included which could cover some of these things, but really by the very nature of TG2's flexibility and power it is impossible to document everything. Even one particular effect may be achieved in many ways most of the time, and there may not even be a "best" approach, depending on your specific needs. We will also be including a library of basic and perhaps some advanced effects and presets which should help, but again they would just be a starting point and a lot will depend on a user's ability to experiment and learn from that basis.
That being said I do think there is a lot of room for user-created tutorials on specific things, as BigBen mentioned. Further to that I think cyphyr's point that artists are the ones who can really make the most of these programs is very valid. I very much hope that we can generate enough interest in the user community and the graphics community as a whole to justify some books on TG2. As far as I know there is only 1 current Vue book and it is not even on advanced topics. I would like to see us do better with TG2, but of course it is not entirely up to us.
Calico I also think your idea of a basic structure for the documentation writing process is a good one, and is similar to how I have envisioned things in some ways. I am currently contemplating how best to approach the overall documentation as we get nearer to actually being able to write it based on a more final application (it would be wasteful to write too much based on the pre-release, of course). The simple truth is while I have a decent technical knowledge of TG 0.9 and TG2, my artistry, creativity, and general sense of the more complex interactions of things is not the best. There are definitely others who more consistently produce fantastic images and novel techniques. If that is any judge of knowledge or ability, and that may somehow be transmitted or taught, then it is worth capturing. I would definitely enjoy working with other talented people to bring the best possible documentation to our users, and I will investigate these possibilities as much as I can.
The other thing to keep in mind is quite frankly some people are simply predisposed to being good with systems like this, and with creating landscape scenes in general, others are not. This is not even a comment on the ease of use of Terragen or any other software - it is a simple fundamental artistic reality. An amateur but accomplished painter may still feel that the brush in their hand must not be the same brush, or there must be some obscure way of using it, that the master knows. But that is not necessarily so - they may simply see differently, or there is some other unknown factor in play. The simple fact is that Terragen is like any other artistic tool. Some can weild it better than others and no amount of schooling can make up for that. That doesn't mean one shouldn't try to learn or that lessons are not valuable, only that one should set expectations reasonably and not get *too* frustrated that some people seem to be able to do this naturally, nor expect those people to teach it, or even that it necessarily *is* teachable.
I think if there is one thing to learn, one practice that will further your knowledge and ability more than anything, it is the ability to experiment. Gaining intuition and always remembrring the freedom to try things without fear of the consequences is fundamental. A grounding in math can't hurt in playing with function networks too. ;)
- Oshyan