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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 01:35:13 AM

Title: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 01:35:13 AM
Detail 0.25 yes too low bad desktop...
ray trace everything checked
ray trace objects checked
No postwork...
any comments...

N.KAID
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Gforce on December 23, 2009, 02:32:37 AM
the sky is still very nice for being rendered at .25.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: EoinArmstrong on December 23, 2009, 04:36:16 AM
Yeah - this is great for 0.25 - the sky colours are lovely
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Hannes on December 23, 2009, 05:22:15 AM
One question: why did you check "raytrace everything"? I think in this case it doesn't make sense and only increases render times.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 06:50:32 AM
Quote from: Hannes on December 23, 2009, 05:22:15 AM
One question: why did you check "raytrace everything"? I think in this case it doesn't make sense and only increases render times.
that's why I got nice cloud at 0.25...ehh I think..

N.KAID
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: PorcupineFloyd on December 23, 2009, 06:51:11 AM
Yeah, I'd turn off ray-trace everything, increase quality to 0.5 (or 0.55 but no more than that) and leave ray-trace objects on. It should result in better water quality without breaking sky details.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Henry Blewer on December 23, 2009, 07:51:31 AM
I like it. How long was the render with everything ray-traced? I think that the ray-trace gave everything a softer fell at the detail setting you used.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 07:57:58 AM
with that res  it took 2. hours 20 ~...

N.KAID
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Henry Blewer on December 23, 2009, 08:01:33 AM
It would probably take much longer on my P4. It gives me a ball park of how long it may take, thanks.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Hannes on December 23, 2009, 08:06:56 AM
2 hours, 20 min. with detail 0.25???
I wonder how long the render time would be without RT everything checked and with detail 0.5!
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: Hannes on December 23, 2009, 08:06:56 AM
2 hours, 20 min. with detail 0.25???
I wonder how long the render time would be without RT everything checked and with detail 0.5!

40 min is the  render time  without RT everything/objects checked and with detail 0.25!
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Henry Blewer on December 23, 2009, 12:30:47 PM
I think it looks better with the full ray trace option. There could be times when everything being raytraced works well.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Hannes on December 23, 2009, 01:59:31 PM
Oh yes, now it looks like we would expect a 0.25 detail render. As long as you don't have a terrain in your scene the use of RTE seems to be OK.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: dandelO on December 23, 2009, 02:03:31 PM
I'd say here, that even the water looks better with RTE, and that obviously isn't optimized for ray tracing.
It looks a lot smoother(ha, because it is less detailed) in the first image.
Lovely sky.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 02:26:02 PM
Strange way behaves this RTE...!!
Since we don't have terrain it seems Ok to render at low detail...

N.KAID
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Hannes on December 23, 2009, 02:29:52 PM
OK, next question: how long does it render and how does it look with RT objects (nothing else) and detail 0.5?
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: Hannes on December 23, 2009, 02:29:52 PM
OK, next question: how long does it render and how does it look with RT objects (nothing else) and detail 0.5?
Since I have a very slow machine ...
I have to make a test render before sleepng and you'll get  an answer early in the morning ...
N.KAID...
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: dandelO on December 23, 2009, 03:15:36 PM
QuoteSince we don't have terrain it seems Ok to render at low detail...

I don't think render detail has any impact at all in this case. I think that renderer detail isn't a factor in this scene, since you only have sky and objects.

The water looking better here with RTE=on is a lucky coincidence.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 03:33:07 PM
Quote....The water looking better here with RTE=on is a lucky coincidence....
The water is a lake with two merged watershader s ...some work is done differently to each one (watershader )

N.KAID
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Tangled-Universe on December 23, 2009, 03:37:31 PM
*sigh* Come on guys, just read:

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8300.0 (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8300.0)

and

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8280.msg88228#msg88228 (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8280.msg88228#msg88228)

Don't want to sound like a dick or "know it all" but There's barely response to Matt's explanation/topic, but confusion all over the place, unnecessary and a bit of a waste of time here if you'd ask me... Matt has explained this thoroughly and well; this is how it works and explains what you're confusing each other about.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 23, 2009, 03:54:53 PM
Thanks TU...

N.KAID...
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: dandelO on December 23, 2009, 05:58:24 PM
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on December 23, 2009, 03:37:31 PM
*sigh* Come on guys, just read:

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8300.0 (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8300.0)

and

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8280.msg88228#msg88228 (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=8280.msg88228#msg88228)

Don't want to sound like a dick or "know it all" but There's barely response to Matt's explanation/topic, but confusion all over the place, unnecessary and a bit of a waste of time here if you'd ask me... Matt has explained this thoroughly and well; this is how it works and explains what you're confusing each other about.

Martin: I certainly have read the posts about the new rendering features, I'm not trying to confuse people.

From what I can gather, through physically testing it, is that, the detail slider has no function in a 'RTE' atmosphere. If I set it to '0' there is no render, of course, but any other setting in render detail seems to result in the same output.
And, when I said that the water looked better ray traced was true. Because it isn't rendered with as much detail in the ray tracer(it being a lake object), it simply 'looks' better. I didn't say it was rendered more correctly or anything.

I think that Aymenk could render this .tgd with a final render detail of 0.01 and still get the rendered output of his first post.

Also, Matt doesn't specifically say that render detail is disregarded in RTE settings. Only that image quality in this setting now depends heavily on AA levels.

Sorry for any confusion I've created, I didn't mean it this way.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Tangled-Universe on December 23, 2009, 06:07:19 PM
I know you don't mean/intend to, of course :)
It's a good thing you're after this, but I (think I can lol) notice that it's a bit confusing. Given your reasoning you might be right about this.
Matt should answer about the RTE atmosphere thing then whenever he's able to, but so far people can better stick to the ideas he vented before.
Though not intentionally people do get confused now, especially when the raytracer gives "unexpected" results when using it for something it isn't originally meant for :)

Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 24, 2009, 01:39:49 AM
Quote from: Hannes on December 23, 2009, 02:29:52 PM
OK, next question: how long does it render and how does it look with RT objects (nothing else) and detail 0.5?
the Time was 6:22:51 with RTO on RTE off and detail of 0.6
btw I increased the res to 1024x602
the sky is OK but the water ...
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 24, 2009, 01:44:01 AM
Quote@Dandelo....I think that Aymenk could render this .tgd with a final render detail of 0.01 and still get the rendered output of his first post....
RTO : off
RTE : on
Detail 0.01
Crop on the water ...render time 2:55:25

N.KAID
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Hannes on December 24, 2009, 04:33:21 AM
Thank you aymenk2003 for your effort. Although Matt wrote a lot about this RTE thing (which I read!) it is strange that the water looks worse with RTE off. Matt wrote that lake objects would look better with the default micro-polygon 'rasteriser' (see, I read it!  ;D).
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Henry Blewer on December 24, 2009, 05:43:01 AM
The render quality of the water shader may be affected by the merged water shaders. If only one was use the result would be smoother looking.
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Tangled-Universe on December 24, 2009, 06:28:30 AM
Quote from: njeneb on December 24, 2009, 05:43:01 AM
The render quality of the water shader may be affected by the merged water shaders. If only one was use the result would be smoother looking.

I think so too, the RTE isn't rendered correctly and because the example is very bad it looks like RTE is better, which is not, and thus very confusing for everyone.

If render contains water and/or terrain -> RTE off and RTO on

"Period."  ;)
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 24, 2009, 09:02:42 AM
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on December 24, 2009, 06:28:30 AM
Quote from: njeneb on December 24, 2009, 05:43:01 AM
The render quality of the water shader may be affected by the merged water shaders. If only one was use the result would be smoother looking.

I think so too, the RTE isn't rendered correctly and because the example is very bad it looks like RTE is better, which is not, and thus very confusing for everyone.

If render contains water and/or terrain -> RTE off and RTO on

"Period."  ;)
...come on TU ...bad example or good example...I'm not a beta tester ,I just want to make things as I like them to be ...
We cannot find someone better than you who can make a Good example with RTE/RTO on/off...that way we can compare the different result...  friendly yours...

N.KAID


Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Tangled-Universe on December 24, 2009, 10:10:44 AM
I have solely good intentions with this, I merely want to prevent misunderstandings/confusion and also waste of time on your side as well.
A couple of posts ago I already dropped 2 links showing why this example is not suitable for comparisons.
I'm not saying I can make better examples or that you should, it's just that this isn't going to work for anybody to understand what's going on, I'm afraid.

- There are good examples already (by non-testers as well!) which show clearly the benefit in populations
- DandelO already showed that using the RT for rendering terrain gives slower and worse results.

All supported by Matt's directions to which I'm just sticking to what he told us and so far that has worked best by far.
By repeating that several times here and there, which is only meant to help and avoid problems etc., it's up to you to use it or try to invent the wheel yourselves :)

Cheers,
Martin
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 24, 2009, 10:25:21 AM
Hi Martin...
excuse me about what it was said later ...
but what I've noticed that RTE on give a smoother cloud as well as smoother terrain See this render...
and no more ...thank to all the staff of planetside and NWDA for their works...I just want to understand the effect of these new items on rendering that's all...

N.KAID
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Tangled-Universe on December 24, 2009, 11:02:34 AM
It's no problem, don't worry ;D
After this I won't be able to explain it any better :)
The explanation is really simple:

The smooth terrain is because the raytracer can't handle such detailed displaced geometry, so it gets smoother.
The reason that it might look better is solely because you render at 0.25 detail.
With "RTE off" is the result it should have considering your displacements etc. It's the "true" result.

The smoother clouds is probably because the raytracer "solves" the scene in a different way than the rasteriser.
I have tested rendering clouds with the raytracer and it is much slower than the rasteriser. I'm absolutely sure of that.

There are no models in here as far as I can tell so switching RTO is not necessary.
The small differences in rendertime is probably just coincidence.

Cheers,
Martin
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: Linda McCarthy on December 24, 2009, 12:54:50 PM
The lighting and colors seem perfect.  What a beautiful render and mood.  Linda
Title: Re: NK_Sunset
Post by: aymenk2003 on December 24, 2009, 02:45:02 PM
@Linda ,thanks Linda..
@Martin , full thanks for this explanation...I have to make much more test...

N.KAID