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General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: Harvey Birdman on April 14, 2007, 09:57:45 am

Title: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 14, 2007, 09:57:45 am
So is it just me, or does Blender suck?

:)

Seriously, what an overrated piece of crap. Anytime an app's documentation has to repeatedly tell you how it's UI may be non-standard and may take a while to learn, but oh! once you get used to it, you'll realize that it's just so much better than a standard UI you'll be in heaven...

Oh, yeah. Sure. Take file operations, for instance. Now, it's been a while since I played with a Mac, but it seems to me that it worked pretty much the same way as a PC - when in File Explorer or whatever, you select a directory, for instance, by single clicking, and open it (drill down) with a double click. Not Blender! Nope, there a single click drills down. So out the window go all the UI behaviors one has learned to expect over the years. Oh, but this is better! So productive!

And it's so well documented! Christ, how long has this thing been around? And all those fanatics can't put together a (decent) manual that's relevant to the current rev of the program.

Nope, I'm forced to conclude that the very existence of this thing is a legacy of the dot-com era stupidity, when someone could show up at Siggraph with a half-assed, half-completed program and fools would throw millions at it.

I guess I better save my pennies and buy a real 3D design program.
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: dhavalmistry on April 14, 2007, 10:43:45 am
ya I tried learning blender a while back but it was very confusing for me.....I found maya to be more straight forward

oh and I dont know if you are aware of this but there is a manual/guide coming out for blender (30 euros)

http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_info.php?products_id=96

Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 14, 2007, 11:06:23 am
Yeah, I  know. I've read it's predecessor - the same manual for the previous version is available online for free. I'm assuming it's of similar quality/style; I stand by my earlier assertion that there is no (decent) manual.

;D
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 14, 2007, 11:55:37 am
I would have to disagree becuase (at least for me) the ui not that terrable and for a free program it gives you a lot. I'm currently using XSI now but I have the student edition so no commerial use for me ( I don't have the 12 grand to buy the real thing) I like using bleder from time to time just to see what people add to it and the fluid simulation isn't all that bad. Though I see your point about the UI though.

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: MooseDog on April 14, 2007, 12:23:55 pm
have you seen this:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro

i use blender only sparingly, but like any app, if it has what i need i have no problem with a learning curve, no matter how steep or out of the ordinary.  it's certainly not crap, it's very rich in features and capabilities.  (i use lightwave mainly btw)

have you modelled and rendered anything to share that demonstrates it's crapness?
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 14, 2007, 01:30:28 pm
Will - yeah, it's free. That's probably the one thing in it's favor, but it's a good example of the old adage that one gets what one pays for. (That's one of the reasons I was so impressed with TG when I discovered it - here was something one could actually do something useful with right off the bat, and it was free.)

MD - There is a reason UI standards evolve and are adhered to. I have too many things to do to spend my time learning a massively non-standard UI when competitive programs have the consideration to stick to the standards. I can't see any reason for Blender's bizarre UI behaviors other than the authors arrogant belief that they know better than every accepted UI standard out there. (imho, of course.) As for sharing something that I might have rendered with it, what's the point? I've used it for rendering occasionally, but for simple low-poly modeling it's the last thing I'd choose, it's file format conversions seem iffy at best, and the documentation sucks. As noted above, it IS free, so the level of disappointment isn't what it would be had I paid a ton of money for it, but it still sucks. imho.
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 14, 2007, 05:16:19 pm
Well lets not flame. It has a large community and there are those here who enjoy using it. You are, oh course, entitled to your own opinion and you seem set in your belief that Blender is not the 3D program for you but have a little respect for those who use it please.

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 14, 2007, 06:30:23 pm
If criticism of a software program is enough to so wound some poor soul, I'd suggest they are in desperate need of a life.

::)
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 14, 2007, 07:16:25 pm
you have a point there.... ;)

But regardless the basic rule around the fourms is courtisy, if that rule is followed by all then we can continue to post threads like this stating our opinion.

Regards,


Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: MooseDog on April 15, 2007, 12:35:30 am
Quote from: Harvey Birdman on April 14, 2007, 01:30:28 pm
...massively non-standard UI...


it's not bizarre, it's not non-standard ;D it's from another f'ing planet altogether :o

i was trying to point out tho that there's more than one way to judge an applications effectiveness.  example:  i once used blender's fluid sim to great effect.  getting there was quite, no..really painful, but i got there, and the sim and the renders turned out great.

as to the ui, it's my understanding that there is a logic to it, and that it's quite consistent.  personally, .....i have no idea what F that logic is :).  contrarian mode:  is it similar to pressing the start button in windows to shut it down? 

blender's ui logic doesn't fit me, it doesn't fit you...that doesn't make the program as a whole crap.  if it was crap, the blender boards and galleries would look like poser pages, not accomplished artists.

again, it is a feature-rich application (and like any...strong here, weak there etc etc) that in hands that it fits can translate what an artist is trying to express.  this, imho, pretty much describes any and all of the major 3d applications.
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 15, 2007, 01:52:41 am
Hey, MD.

:)

You make an excellent point about the quality of the images it's possible to create with it. Like I said, I have found use for it on occasion... but I'd put a little different spin on it. There's no denying that some talented work has gone into implementing it's features, but just think how much more could be created with it if that functionality had been wrapped in a sensible UI? They've dramatically hamstrung what might have been a promising product by tossing the UI standards out the window. Then the 'manual' repeatedly attempts to justify it (even boasts about it!). Sort of smacks of tilting at windmills. (Like this rant, where the true believers are concerned.   :D )
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 15, 2007, 03:33:59 am
Blender (Which I have but haven't got round to learning yet) has a learning curve just like any other software title out there and as far as its UI is concerned there are far worse UI's out there in the wild right now.

I think (IMHO) that if the Blender community wants a better interface they will demand one and get it, or some one in the community could just design one since Blender is a open source application.

I think what should be understood here is that there is no universally accepted way of designing interfaces, yes there are standards but they are not enforced and as with every thing else in software the old adage is true "You can't please all of  the people all of the time" .

Right now with todays modelling methods it can take hours, days or longer to make a model which if you have an idea which needs to be gotten down quickly then this is vary annoying, one day you may have software interfaces that are as fast and easy to use as picking up and pencil and drawing on paper but until that day we have to make do with what resources we are given, this is true for all software applications not just Blender.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel   
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: king_tiger_666 on April 15, 2007, 08:05:46 am
blender interface reminds me of lightwave.. both look confusing and have tabs all over the show.  but then again truespace is also confusing but does some great stuff...


Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 15, 2007, 08:22:38 am
I think the Zbrush UI is sorta the same way in the fact thats it can be confusing but one you get down the basics or leard where what you need is then you can look past the problums.

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: RealUser on April 15, 2007, 08:39:11 am
I own Realsoft3D (raytracer) which has a steep learning curve, but great tools to model everything you can imagine. In some areas (animation of quad-/bi-peds) it lacks of functionality, on the other hand it is very good in what it does. The image quality is phantastic and it is, compared to other modeling/raytracing programs, really cheap. What bothers me about this program is the mathematically attitude it "provides" to the user. Everything is technically and i really tried to cope with that. But i have to face it: I am no technician. My understanding of the shader language it has, comes close to nothing. I can do some basic shaders, but will be lost if i wanted to do some sophisticated things like anisotropic effects or the like.
Since my interests of image creation with CGI began in the good old C=64/8Bit-time and AMIGA days, i often stumbled over software that does its job a "different" way. To be honest: nearly every software does its job not as good as it could be, when it comes to the user interfaces. I am a supporter of the "maximum 3 clicks-or-less-and-short-mousemoves-attitude", to start an action, function, script or anything else in a software. I have  rarely seen s/w which doesn't wants to be clickediclicked and needs massive mouse-"action" for simple functions. Blender is one of this s/w in a long row of others. Just name one, it will fit! IMHO, most of the nowadays s/w walks in children's shoes regarding the UI. S/W is often un-intuitiv and uncomfortable and forces the user to learn many clicks here and there to make a simple action. That said, nearly every s/w is "crap" when it comes to ease of use.
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 15, 2007, 10:26:55 am
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on April 15, 2007, 03:33:59 am

...
I think what should be understood here is that there is no universally accepted way of designing interfaces, yes there are standards but they are not enforced and as with every thing else in software the old adage is true "You can't please all of  the people all of the time" .

...
Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  



Hi, CA -

Most of what you said was pretty reasonble, but I have to take issue with this - 'there are standards but they are not enforced'. Apparently you've never gone through the trouble of having Microsoft, for instance, certify an app as 'designed for windows'. UI standards are a major part of the spec, and are rigorously enforced.


Real-User - Errr, I believe Krusty's signature tag line is 'Hey hey'. I don't think you need the third 'hey'.

;D
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 15, 2007, 10:35:13 am
Birdman are you currently enrolled in a school by chance becuase since you seem to dislike blender so much you could apply for an education edition of anouther program my version of XSI was $195 for one year its like $295 for unlimited and getting a Realflow education edition is $95 so you could set up pretty quickly for naouther program if blender is not for you ( or you could buy a 30gig video IPod for around the same price).

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 15, 2007, 10:38:42 am
Hi, Will -

I'm not, but my wife is a part-time student and can get the student versions of 3dStudio and, I believe, Maya. I'm considering doing the student license thing to check these out.
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 15, 2007, 10:41:45 am
I would recommend it, its a pretty good gig as long as you don't plan on selling your images. PLender does not seem to be your thing so this might be a good alternitive.

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 15, 2007, 10:48:19 am
Why the qualification about not selling the images?
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 15, 2007, 10:56:40 am
thats the idea of an education version you use it to learn the program and then hopefully shell out the twelve grand once your all done. It may or may not be the thing for you depending on what you want to do with your work but I think that is the biggest draw of Blender is that fact that its free and you can do what ever you like. But if you are (like me) just an enthusiest at the moment it might be a good way tog go.

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: RealUser on April 15, 2007, 10:57:24 am
@Harvey: The third Hey is an echo!  ;D But you are right ... changed it ...
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 15, 2007, 11:08:59 am
Ah the Amiga days, I remember that that is when I saw my first use of Raytracting and Lens Flairs courtesy of Babylon-5 and then latter Sea-Quest DSV. From my understanding of software form the period on the Amiga that Video Toaster was much harder to use form an interface stand point then lightwave.

From what I recall when Power-Animator (Now Maya) first came out I remember reading in one of the computer magazines of the day most likely Amiga Format (Future Publishing) or maybe even Computer Shopper a comparison on easy of use of different 3d graphics software and I believe that it was said that Lightwave was by far essayer to use then Power-Animator.

I am into Computer-Human interaction and usability and my take on software boils down to:

1.   Easy to use for even the most novice user

2. Professional feature set (Give Professionals the tools they need to do their job but in away that is conversant with and supportive of (1.).

3. Software for Life: The same software you have on your home system is the same software you kids use at school, when they leave school the same software (They adapt to new releases of the software as it comes out they grow in skills as the software grows) the software is there for them at college, at university and is waiting for them in the work place.

4. Universal Software Interface Standard (USSIS): This standard would give a common ground within in the software industry with standardised naming conventions, UI layout etc. With this standard any one no matter what industry or sector they work in would be able to set at a new workstation in any other business and be able to use the software there as is conversant with (3.).

This would allow greater transfer of skills from one organisation to another but since every one is talking the same language and is on the same page it lessens the down time needed for re-skilling your work force but will save time and money in project management when to companies maybe form different areas of expertise need to come together where one or both need to assign on a Non-Permanent biases (Life of the project) project workers form one to go into the other if you have a universal standard then you can have these people maximise their productivity and not waist time search for  some thing in software they would be unfamiliar with other wise.

Just some ideas I am developing.

_______________________________________________________

You right what you said Harvey I forgot about Microsoft I stand corrected. End Of Line.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel    
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 15, 2007, 11:20:03 am
Oh and just too add what about Hash: Animation Master? That might be excatly what you need, cheap, effective, and with a pretty easy UI I think you would like it.

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 15, 2007, 11:26:40 am
Will,

The Last time I heard about Hash Animation Master and maybe they have fixed it since then, is that small black squares appear in the finale render some times; but that was some years ago now so its probably been fixed by now.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 15, 2007, 11:28:30 am
I had it about two or three years ago, it was my first 3D package, it worked out well for the price. don't know about the black squares though I never saw any.

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 15, 2007, 11:32:25 am
I have never used Animation Master my self but when I was reading a review some years ago in Computer Arts Magazine of it they said that they had them.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 15, 2007, 11:34:42 am
hmm weird, I know it gets 9/10 by 3Dworld now though but you could be right I haven't used it in a while.

Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 15, 2007, 12:09:12 pm
Hey, thanks. I'll check that one out. I hadn't heard of it before.

I'm not exactly an enthusiast, but not exactly massively profitable, either. I have managed to get some academic grant funding for one of my projects in the past, and I'm working with a group of faculty at U. Wyo. on my current project. I'm hopeful that I'm going to be able to come up with grant money for it later this year, maybe early next year. If I can swing that then cost won't be an issue - nothing like spending Other People's Money, know what I mean?

;D
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: Will on April 15, 2007, 01:54:51 pm
yea, but there is always the possablity of having an intern lear blender for you and have then do all the work right  ;)


Regards,

Will
Title: Re: Blender
Post by: rcallicotte on April 26, 2007, 04:26:32 pm
Made in Blender - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1430039