I've posted this issue once before but never received a remedy. Issue: Tree population objects do not produce shadows although 'set on terrain' is checked. Any solutions to this problem would be appreciated.
Bob
Make sure that you have shadows enabled in the lighting section and "Objects cast shadows" set in the objects node.
Thanks o_b; both are checked; however, still no shadows. As a matter of fact, the 'sun side' of the tree should be brighter than the opposite side - but, it is not. All the trees in the populations look flat; without shadows.
Bob
Here is the .tgd file. A number of image map shaders are contained therein; just disable them. The scene is based on the DEM: Navajo Point.
Bob
Hi, From just a quick look and without the terrain file it seems to me that your trees are incredibly small - 0.4 Meter tall and the tree population set to 0.18 of a meter. In addition if you scale them up to realistic sizes, they're not sitting on the terrain- they're in mid air. take a look at "illusive grass clumps" in the general discussion area. Good luck!
Regards
Kevin.
Thanks Kevin; the trees were made to that scale so as to match the terrain size and point of view. If they were larger, they would be out of scale. I will go through the 'illusive grass clumps' thread to see if I can pick up on the remedy to resolve my problem ...thanks again.
Bob
Hi Bob,
Just noticed that this problem has set here long enough and you haven't receive a response from Planetside about your problem. I know from talking to you on the phone every couple of days that you have tried everything suggested and then some. This seemingly lack of concern for your problem sends me a bad message. What the hell is going on here?? You have been a TG user for a long time and have done this software company great justice with your Superb landscape creations. I feel if anyone deserves help, you certainly do. Not trying to stir things up, or maybe I am because this irritates the hell out of me. If this is a Bug, tell us it's a Bug, if it's something we are doing wrong please tell us how to do it correctly. Is that so hard to do?
I guess this will get me in trouble because anytime something negative is said about Planetside the "Yes Men" get their dander up and run to the rescue. So be it! But let me warn you, there's no viable excuse as far as I'm concerned for this behavior. When Customer support goes out the window so do Customers. And let me make it perfectly clear, Bob didn't know I was going to post this complaint so don't be upset with him, this is all my doings. No I'm not a yes man nor very diplomatic, I just tell it like I see it. Something not many have Balls enough to do.
Sorry Bob, I just had to say something.
Jay
Nothing sinister is going on, the thread simply slipped through the cracks. It does occasionally happen and I do apologize.
We do our best to provide regular support here and it is one of the official support methods we offer. However if immediate support is needed or an answer is not forthcoming the absolute best, most guaranteed method of contact is through direct email to support@planetside.co.uk. Registered users are entitled to priority support through this method.
I will take a look at the .tgd file and respond further as soon as I can.
- Oshyan
Thanks Oshyan, you handled that well. Sorry but the reason I was upset is that Bob has been asking for help with this since April 30th. He has been fighting this problem for a Month with no satisfaction and that's quite a long time.
As far as I could see the questions in his first thread had been answered by the time I read it so I didn't think it needed further investigation. I didn't make the connection that this thread was an extension of that one, but it does indicate the same problem. However he never responded after having tested it in the previous thread so I wonder if the fixes suggested (and apparently tested by others) really worked, or what exactly is going on.
I'll see what I can find in the provided file, although without the objects in question it may be difficult to figure out.
- Oshyan
This might sound far fetched but is it possible for tgd's to react differently on different machines?
Technically yes and it has happened before to some degree. Generally it would be a cross-platform issue, but I don't think that's the case here (is Bob on a Mac?). It's also not something that I would expect to be effected by those differences. Nonetheless it is possible...
- Oshyan
No, he runs a PC with XP like most of us. The reason I ask is because others including myself worked with his first tgd where he was having problems and thought the problem was fixed. I mean I saw shadows on my end but when he loaded the supposedly corrected file he still had no shadows on his end. I wonder if it could be his monitor gamma settings and not TG? I'm probably not helping here so I will shut up. :-X
No, this is worthwhile discussion and a valid part of the troubleshooting process. Of course without his input it's all speculation. ;D
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on May 28, 2007, 04:52:20 PM
No, this is worthwhile discussion and a valid part of the troubleshooting process. Of course without his input it's all speculation. ;D
- Oshyan
I just talked with him this afternoon and he is still having problems. I think he just gave up on using the forum for this problem.
I'll put a bug in his ear and try and get him back here. Probably not today though, you know the Family Cookout thing. ;D
Thanks Oshyan,
Jay
Sounds good. I hope to do some BBQ'ing today myself. :)
I'm messing with the file right now but without the terrain it's a bit iffy whether my results are going to be at all comparable to his.
- Oshyan
The problem was that "Do Ray Traced Shadows" was unchecked in the renderer under the More Settings tab. This is absolutely necessary to get shadows of any kind. Note that this is different than the Ray Traced Shadows in the Atmosphere and Cloud Quality tabs which control certain shadow characteristics particular to the clouds and atmosphere. Normally these can both remain unchecked and enabling them greatly increases render time. In the case of the similar option in the main renderer you are actually disabling *all* shadows.
The cloud samples for the 2D layer and the number of atmosphere samples are also quite excessive for this scene. These high settings should not be necessary and likely only increase render time without any render quality improvement. It's important to understand the impact of the various quality settings and to experiment in each given scene with crop renders to ensure the best mix of detail settings so you get a high quality render in a reasonable time frame.
- Oshyan
Thanks Oshyan for your response. I am in the process of building a new PC; and, as soon as all is up and running properly, I will post the 'Navajo Point' terrain on my web site for download. I'll let you know when this is done.
Also, thanks for the tip regarding the ray traced setting on the renderer. I'll do a quick, cropped render to see if this works. Someone had left a comment that the trees are actually above the ground - maybe this is why there are no shadows!
BTW; I have decided to not to load the 64 bit version of Vista Ultimate on my new PC. I may be being over careful; but, I need to be sure that all my programs work - especially Terragen 2!
Bob (I'll get back to you)
Oshyan; I checked the ray traced shadows in the renderer and made a small, cropped render - but, still no shadows. One other thing that is noticeable is that the 'sun side' of the trees are not brighter as they should be ...another thing that is amiss here.
I'll get back to you after I upload the DEM terrain on my site for download. This may not be until later in the week.
Bob
In the .tgd you provided the disabled ray traced shadows made everything look very flat, as you describe, with the sun-side of the tree not being lighter. Enabling ray traced shadows fixed that immediately on my end. I am really confused as to why it doesn't seem to do the same on your end. Providing rendered image examples of the results you're seeing would be tremendously helpful in further diagnoses.
- Oshyan
Thanks Oshyan; I will render a 640 x 480; or, a cropped area of a 1280 x 960 to show the result. Will be back to you with the results as quickly as it will render on my old machine.
Again, thank you very much for your help.
Bob
Oshyan; here is a cropped render of the scene wherein the trees are not producing shadows. I note a great improvement since I activated the ray traced shadows in the renderer; however, the tree shadows are still a problem. Also, I think that maybe the 'fill lights' are too strong since it appears that I have a sand (or snow) layer on the horizontal surfaces.
Attached are a .jpg of the cropped scene; and, the latest updated .tgd file.
Thanks for your help.
Bob
OK, given that this continues to occur I think it's important for me to have access to all the files involved here to exactly reproduce your problem scene. I will be needing the terrain at a minimum, and potentially all the texture files as well, if possible. I can provide upload space or you can email the files directly to support@planetside.co.uk
I don't think this is the result of a bug as it's not something we've seen anything similar to before as a known issue and objects have been tested fairly extensively. But you never know, and we'd certainly liek to help you get this working regardless.
- Oshyan
Thank you very much Oshyan, I will work on getting all the files to you later today. The terrain file is 32MB; so, I'll have to get in on my web site so you can download it. I'll get back to you with a message letting you know that it is ready for download. I'll e-mail the other texture files to you as you suggested ...your response here is appreciated.
Bob
Hi Bob,
I have taken another look at your scene now that I have a moment and I've found several other problems and unusual configuration options.
First, you do have your objects offset from the terrain in the population by specifying a non-0 number in the middle coordinate for "Area centre". This is the Y or vertical axis. This means your objects aren't sitting properly on the terrain.
Second, and perhaps most important to the shadow problem, your fill lights are at a fairly high strength. Their combined brightness is going to wash out most shadow you would see, especially with your low sun angle and the distance of your camera.
Finally you are specifying a *luminosity* texture and strength for your leaf textures in the tree object. This is going to give you a luminous tree - i.e. one that provides its own light to the scene - and this is no doubt resulting in the odd unshadowed look you're seeing in the trees themselves (regardless of shadows on the ground).
I think these issues account for the effects you're seeing and so I would say this is expected behavior given your settings. In the future if you're having problems with populations or any other particular feature I can't stress enough the value of trying it in a *default* configuration before experimenting further. That way you know that it's probably not the setting adjustments you've made that is causing any problems you see.
So in summary, to fix your scene I would recommend doing *all* of the following:
Turn on Ray Traced Shadows in the renderer's More Settings tab
Set Y axis position value for populator(s) to 0
Reduce fill light strength to 0.2-3 or less for all fill lights
Remove Luminosity texture from leaves entirely and set luminosity value to 0
- Oshyan
Oshyan, I really appreciate your time scrutenizing this file. I will cover all the issues and make adjustments. The think I once tried the 'zero' for the 'Y' dimension but it didn't work - however, this was some time ago and I've made many other adjustments since. Jay tells me he has been using 512 DEM files he downloaded from 'Timster's' site with great success. Although the terrain sizes he has used is only 512, Terragen 2 seems to bring out excellent details - especially when using a bit of displacement.
I will get back to you with the results of the adjustments I've made.
One more question: When one uses fill lights, are the settings of these lights set at default numbers; or, do they adjust automatically based on one's sun settings?
Thank you Oshyan for helping me out.
Bob
Fill lights are independent of the sun and of each other and must currently be adjusted manually to match other lighting settings. In general you may find that leaving them at the defaults or setting them to a good level and then using the camera exposure settings will yield a better, more even adjustment of brightness for different times of day without having to fiddle with strength for 3 different lights.
- Oshyan
Thanks Oshyan, this will be helpful.
Bob
Hi Oshyan,
I adjusted the following based on your suggestions:
Turn on Ray Traced Shadows in the renderer's More Settings tab This worked well including shadows from the fake stones and terrain.
Set Y axis position value for populator(s) to 0 This did not work; both, for the trees and the grass clumps. Still, there are no shadows.
Reduce fill light strength to 0.2-3 or less for all fill lights The effect of fill lights were greatly improved with a setting of .175.
Remove Luminosity texture from leaves entirely and set luminosity value to 0 This did show improvement although the colors must be lightened.
I think I'm beating a dead horse. It seems there are other elements causing this 'shadowless tree/grass clump' problem.
Bob
All else having failed we must resort to sharing the complete scene, terrain, textures and all. Note that you can compress .ter and other files well with RAR or .7z compression. The free ZipGenius (http://www.zipgenius.it/) can compress to .7z.
- Oshyan
I think a worthwhile test would be to render a close-up of one of the trees in such a way that the shadows are large and can be seen very clearly (if the shadows are working, of course). If any shadows are then visible it should be easier to decide what problems remain.
Matt
Hi Oshyan,
I tried to download 7Zip but it would not allow it. I use IZarc and compressed the 32MB Navajo Point file down to 29MB. I'll try to send it to your site; however, my ISP generally won't allow anything through (outgoing or incoming) much larger than 2MB. If the e-mail fails, I'll put the file on my site for download. I'll advise you when this is done if I have to go this route.
The 'grass clumps' image map is 5.49MB; The 'Birch Trees' image map is 3.27MB; and, the surface layer 3 image map is 1.69MB.
Another thought for file transfer is 'Microsoft Messenger'. This works well; Jay and I use it all the time. Let me know if you would be interested in doing the transfer this way. I think this would be the best way to get the files to you. It would take about 10 to 15 minutes for the transfer.
Attached is the latest .tgd file.
Bob
Hi Matt,
I will do a test render after zooming in on a tree and advise if the tree is actually producing shadows. I'll get back to you. Thanks for the tip.
Bob
I'm on MSN messenger. That would work fine for me. I have PM'd you my contact details. :)
- Oshyan
@Oshyan: Where do I find your 'PM'd Messenger details?
@ Matt: I zoomed in on the trees and did a cropped render. The trees did not show up at all. This probably means that the tree settings (and grass clump settings) need to be reset.
Bob
Look in the upper-right for "Private messages" under "Welcome Choronr".
- Oshyan
Thanks; I've read the message and sent you a reply; and, an e-mail.
Oshyan, this is the message I got back when sending you a message:
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
Delivery to the following recipients failed.
edsel4444@hotmail.com
That is my MSN address only, it is not a valid email address. Blame Microsoft's silly MSN ID system. ;D
- Oshyan
Agree. More than their Messenger product is silly. Back to you tomorrow.
Bob
Quote from: choronr on May 31, 2007, 01:05:45 AM
@ Matt: I zoomed in on the trees and did a cropped render. The trees did not show up at all. This probably means that the tree settings (and grass clump settings) need to be reset.
It may be that you zoomed in too far. Make sure the whole of the tree's bounding box is within the 3D Preview window. (The objects' bounding boxes should show up if you have "Preview instances" enabled in the Populator node.) The bounding boxes sometimes seem quite a lot bigger than the objects they contain. I wouldn't use a crop region until you know exactly how the tree looks fills the image.
If the trees are visible from a distance I don't know of any other reason why they would not render from a closer viewpoint, unless perhaps the crop region was in a part of the image that is looking through an empty part of the tree.
Matt
Hi Matt,
Sorry; I just realized that I forgot to 'Set Camera' after zooming in on the trees. It was a bit late in the evening when I did this and wasn't thinking straight. Oshyan and I tried to do a file transfer last night but it didn't work out - so, I'm preparing a folder with all the files that he can download from my site.
In the meantime, I will zoom in again on the trees and get back to you this morning. Sorry for the mistake.
Bob
Hi Matt,
After zooming in on the trees to see if the shadows will show up, ...still, no shadows.
Bob
Hello Oshyan,
All the files are up on my site and ready for download. There are two separate downloads you need to make. Let me know if you have questions; and, that the download was successful. Thanks.
Bob
Hi Oshyan,
I ran the correction '5' with success. Thank you for resetting where it was needed. I will use this file as a reference for all future builds.
One question however; although the trees are too small in this instance to make any difference – but, how do you keep the trees from going up the vertical of the distant mesa? I expect it is adjustments to the altitude and slope constraints (I think this is how I got off the track in the first place). I would expect that minimizing each of these settings would keep the trees off of the vertical surfaces.
Another issue is the stark contrast of the tree foliage. I think this is an Xfrog problem – not one of the Terragen program. I've been adjusting the color somewhat in an effort to soften the effect of the trees looking as though they were stamped on the image.
In all, I am very happy with what you've done here. I will also be working with the '7' correction you have made. I'll keep you apprised of my progress. Thanks again Oshyan.
Bob
You would use slope constraints in your distribution shader for the respective populations to control whether the trees and grass appear on steep slopes.
The high contrast of the trees is probably just due to the texture being used. You can adjust the texture outside of TG or put a color adjust shader in-between the Default Shader and the Multi-shader for the leaf textures in your object's internal network and try messing with the black and white point or gamma.
- Oshyan
Thanks Oshyan, I'll experiment with these suggestions. The new PC will occupy most of my time over the next several days. As soon as I'm back in business, Terragen 2 will be my first objective.
Your support is first class ...thanks to all of you for what you have done for us.
Bob
Quote from: choronr on June 04, 2007, 02:21:56 AM
Thanks Oshyan, I'll experiment with these suggestions. The new PC will occupy most of my time over the next several days. As soon as I'm back in business, Terragen 2 will be my first objective.
Your support is first class ...thanks to all of you for what you have done for us.
Bob
Yep! First Class it is!