Planetside Software Forums

General => Terragen Discussion => Topic started by: rcallicotte on June 23, 2008, 08:26:52 pm

Title: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 23, 2008, 08:26:52 pm
Jo and Matt,

To put an end to all of this constant attention toward the unending release, help us.  Would you please put out a table showing release dates (including the GOLD date) that are based upon sound programming?  I know you two are intelligent.  Few people can program at this level. 

Otherwise a pattern of apparent lying is going to undermine anything Planetside could do...unless, of course, the real concerns aren't about us (the people who are paying bits and pieces).  It's not really a long shot possibility to think that the real concerns are for some big FISH who is going to use your product in Hollywood, etc.  Whether through a realistic inability to finish the product or through a hidden deal with someone who is going to pay you big money for the core TG2 engine, what is happening at this level (you know, the $200 level) doesn't appear to be a fair shake for any of us who paid this comparatively small amount. 

In case I'm being quick to judge, I'm sorry.  But, what I'm asking isn't unreasonable, if you guys mean to make a product that isn't vaporware...vaporware that the general public believes is real.  If you are going to give us an honest to goodness reliable product, please take time to figure out realistic dates that you can meet and let us know what they are.  In that case, we can quit coming here and asking you every other hour what you're going to do about this or that problem or new idea we think you should do.  We'll just wait for your feature locked release.

Because I have had confidence in you guys, it would be easy to hope you wouldn't keep us in the dark.  But, in case I've had false confidence (otherwise known as being scammed and it happens daily in the world I live in), this would make us all a bunch of test stooges, who (you should readily admit) would happily put an end to all of this fiasco.  That feeling of being privileged to be in on the ground up is not feeling as privileged as about 18 months ago.  We need real dates or it's going to be easy to maintain that Planetside will never release an actual 2.0 product to the general paying public.

I'm a programmer.  Telling my paying client to keep waiting is the surest way to lose them.

"If it seems too good to be true, then it usually is." - Anonymous

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute

Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 23, 2008, 10:53:20 pm
I think this is a bit extreme, I mean, surely TGa3 is enough to show that they are still at least working on the product.  I understand that some of us have paid money for an essentially incomplete product, but you know what.. I knew that when I shelled out..  way back when.  I knew exactly what I was getting into.  If I had a chance to do it over again, I'd still pay for it.

I am enjoying the product despite it's current flaws, and I have full faith that Planetside will eventually (keyword) pull through with TG2 and I'll be even more a happy camper then.

Edit: not, of course, that it's unreasonable to feel entitled to knowing more behind the scenes stuff, and definately getting some timeframes.  But, ETAs are silly, they never turn out right.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 23, 2008, 11:15:25 pm
@Zylot,

Interestingly enough, my attitude is like yours.  The only difference is that I've never had faith that is equivalent of blindness.  If you think having scheduled dates on a program is out of touch, then you've never programmed or you don't know the history of Terragen.  Another possibility is that you are one of the few who work in the industry who show up on this site once in awhile to tell us that all we need to do is be patient...the same industry in which DD does its work.  If you are really and truly honest, and you know the history, while still maintaining that it doesn't matter if there is a due date on this product, then you're one of P.T. Barnum's majority.

Vaporware is one thing.  But, people paying for vaporware is the equivalent of fraud.  We need actual due dates.  No fooling.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 24, 2008, 12:15:07 am
Hate to break it too yah, but I'm just a hobbyest.  I purchased TG 0.xx ages ago, nabbed world machine, and eventually TGP/TG2 when deep became avail.

I'm not in any industry (except the "making bad flash games" industry, and I'm not out of the loop.  I just lurk moar, and post when I feel like it (specifically, when My PC is in a working state, which unfortunately hasn't been to often lately). 

Your argument would be 100% valid and correct if, and only if, Terragen was vapourware.  At this time, I don't believe it is, vapourware doesn't get updates.  When was the last time you played the Duke Nukem forever demo, or tested the Noctis V preview, or seen a shred of news on Alan Wake.  These are much moar likely candidates for being abandoned then T2 is.  I'll be more worried when the news from Oyishan dies down and the updates stop coming.

(If I recall, that was more like the old days, and lo-and-behold, along came the tech preview)

You can try to drop me into whatever stereotype or group you want, but in the end, I'm just some guy with his own ideas, speaking his mind.

Always got an edit:  I don't recall saying that 'dates are out of touch', simply that demanding dates when a company isn't ready to hand out hard ETAs is foolish, because you'll be more upsat when they don't get met with results (when not if mind you).  Timeframes, yes.  ETAs, no, not till they are ready.

I also don't consider this blind faith, simply normal faith in a company that has updates and news, as infrequent as they may be, and a hope that they prove me right.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Oshyan on June 24, 2008, 01:21:48 am
If we were to give a release date, to be truly "safe" it would have to be much further in the future than would really bring anyone comfort anyway. I think it's clear from past history that specifying dates just doesn't work and doesn't make anyone happier for long.

Obviously you can see progress is being made, and of course behind the scenes I see it daily, but it's remarkable how much that last 10% of development takes so much longer than the other 90%. This is a well-known fact of software development in fact. In a way TG2 has been at 80-90% complete for years now (as far as the core engine goes - obviously multithreading was a big, fairly recent addition), it's the fine-tuning, polishing, and bug fixing that take so long.

Believe me, we all wish it were easier and that the release were available months, years ago. And it'd be great to be able to hire another team member, but we don't have millions in investment capital to throw around (and others have tried that route and failed anyway)

TG2 is coming, and it will be better than ever (in other words it will be an improvement on the Technology Previews, naturally). We can't be much more specific than that, but we absolutely do appreciate everyone's patience and understanding. I am looking forward more than anything to a final release.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Moose on June 24, 2008, 04:39:27 am
Oops :-[ - I just made a post in the other thread that would probably have been more fitting here, had I seen this one first.

As more noise comes from those with concerns, which I imagine can sound negative and demoralising from a developer's perspective, I'd just like to speak-out here in this thread aswell to show my support for Planetside. I'm sure there are many more silent lurkers who feel the same too. :)
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 24, 2008, 07:25:11 am
There are two kinds of software development marketing in the world -

1.  Freeware - Like Linux
2.  Retail (shareware fits here)

Freeware gets updates continually and never really finishes.  But, no one is paying for it.

Retail has due dates and no one pays, until there's a product.  A retail product has a GOLD release.  Then, there are updates.  If the programmers are good programmers, these updates to the final product are mostly enhancements to the final product.  If these programmers are unreliable, then the updates are mostly bug fixes and frequently carry the company's reputation into disdain.

So...when a company charges customers and never releases a product, are we defining a new marketing scheme?  If Duke Nukem Forever had tried this ploy, they would have been in the American courts already and made restitution for a .9999 product. 

Planetside (Oshyan, Matt and Jo), maybe you should take time off and get away from all of this for long enough to forget about it and come back with fresh eyesight to see that your repuation is at stake.  I believe you have integrity, but this isn't what is coming through right now. 

Just give us dates.  Otherwise, the same delusional aspect of the previous version might continue into the future, meaning no final product and constant changes to people who have paid for something unfinished.  The only reason I purchased this product was because there was a planned date that has come and gone.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have spent my money.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: sjefen on June 24, 2008, 08:42:49 am
Quote from: Moose on June 24, 2008, 04:39:27 am
I'd just like to speak-out here in this thread aswell to show my support for Planetside. I'm sure there are many more silent lurkers who feel the same too. :)


Like me ;)
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Harvey Birdman on June 24, 2008, 09:31:27 am
Quote from: Oshyan on June 24, 2008, 01:21:48 am
If we were to give a release date, to be truly "safe" it would have to be much further in the future than would really bring anyone comfort anyway.
- Oshyan



So you now openly acknowledge that you have been lying all along about when a useable, complete product would be released.

The truth is you have lied to and basically stolen from every person who has paid in advance.

Your tactic has been to maintain that a real product was right around the corner, while privately realizing that it was bullshit.

This is fraud. You people are thieves. To hell with 'encouraging Planetside'. Encourage them to do what? Steal from more people?

If PS was in the US they would be sued and forced to desist from their dishonest business practices.

So the truth is out. PS has no idea when they will release a product. They don't have any intention of sticking to any date. They are doing what they have always done - basic R&D on the product, working on whatever their heart desires, funded with our money, and lying all the while. Not too long ago Oshyan mentioned new GI controls that would be in the next 'alpha-beta-gamma'. New controls. Does that sound like a frozen feature set?

PS is a crooked, dishonest operation that has stolen from every person who has paid in advance.

And the big diff between DNF and TG@ - at least the producers of DNF weren't such sleazy scumbags as to sell licenses back in 1998.

You can bet your ass that if this scam had occurred to PS earlier, they'd have been ripping people off that much sooner.

PS sucks. TG2 is an amateurish piece of shit that will never be completed.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Tangled-Universe on June 24, 2008, 10:03:10 am
Come on Harvey, get yourself together and back in line again...
I understand your and everybody's frustrations and I have to admit my patience decreases as well in the meantime.
However I think in posts like these (also previous posts elsewhere) you're being too disrespectful.
As said I understand (y)our frustration but keep it respectful, though you might find yourself being treated disrespectfully.
As you make your bed, so you must lie in it.
For your understanding, I'm not defending PS's interests/strategies or whatsoever...

Martin
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Harvey Birdman on June 24, 2008, 10:16:04 am
Sorry, but I don't feel obliged to show respect to an organization that has stolen from me.

I'll tell you something else. I'll preempt the expected 'oh yeah, well you couldn't do what they're doing' BS. Yes, I could. I have successfully developed and released commercial multithreaded OpenGL apps myself; WHICH IS SOMETHING PLANETSIDE CAN'T CLAIM TO HAVE DONE!!

The development process described by PS is the most hackish, amateurish process imaginable. I can't believe anyone would release a product ( AT ANY TEST LEVEL ! ) with memory leaks, resource leaks and bugs in the quantity PS does. It's clear that there is no discipline in their process - no unit testing, no leak testing, no discipline at all. This business of 'oh, we'll finish it and then go back and debug' is the sort of thing one would expect from a high-school age hacker.

Nope, I have no fear of burning bridges here. The company is a sham and they have no idea how to even begin developing a quality piece of software. I'm willing to take a refund; that might quiet me down, but it won't alter my impression, or the truth about PS.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 24, 2008, 10:55:00 am
Hmm, the buzzword around here is date.  Date date date.

Alright, I revise my stance.  I also *strongly advise* on the verge of demand that a PS dev come in here (Matt, Jo) and post some date.  It can be a realistic expectation of when PS feels they will be able to release TG, or it can be some arbitrary date they pull out of they rear ends cause they're a dirty dishonest company and don't care cause TG is clearly vapourware.

For this example, we'll set the TG date at September 23rd, it's my anniversary, so it's a good lucky day.

I'll now use my latent psychic powers to see into the future.

Sept 23rd rolls around, and lo and behold, TG is nowhere to be found.  Seems like testing didn't go so well, a few critical bugs appeared and it had to be delayed.  Everyone is up in arms.  A thread is started (something along the lines of "Terregen release announcement discussion thread") and everyones posting about "Why did Planetside post a release date they knew they couldn't make."

And we've come 'round full circle.  Inky can wave a checkered flag, the crowd will cheer, a thread like this will reappear, and I'll be up in the stands munchin' on a hotdog (or whatever you eat in a race).
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 24, 2008, 12:35:53 pm
Zylot, don't be an arse.

Harvey is right about a programmer's process.  And anyone who defends paying for something again here for something that is ONLY being promised is missing some understanding about what your money is for.  I can be tolerant, but being exploited isn't on that list.  Unless Planetside has real dates that we can hold them to, then this is all just bogus nonsense and Zylot is proving it by treating this like he's a frikkin' expert.

Again, if this was 3DRealms (or fill in the American development team here) and this was Duke Nukem Forever (or fill in the vaporware here) at a discounted price before it was released, it would have been in court already. 

It's beginning to be admitted (which I see as a valid step to recovery) that this was just not a good business practice.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 24, 2008, 12:44:36 pm
I'm not being an ass or an expert.  The fact is, we bugged them for dates in the past, we got them, and then they were missed.  That's not my expert opinion, that's history.

My ultimate point, is how is anyone going to bring a release date here or anywhere else, and have it be taken seriously.  I completely understand the frustration everyone is experiencing, but I don't think yet another projected release date is going to change anything.

How would that make them accountable?  How would it change anything?  My answer: It hasn't, it won't, and it never well.  Planetside does what they do, and no amount of dates will change the fact that it'll be done when it's done.

I'm not saying you need to relax, stop complaining, etc...  I'm saying the end result is your rallying for something that changes nothing.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: otakar on June 24, 2008, 01:29:09 pm
TG2 has potential. Big potential. However, given the PS track record, I decided not to commit myself financially. I wanted to see that a final version was immininent before that happens. Of course, it has not come to that so far. I have no clue whether it will, but I am trying to be optimistic.

I doubt you'll see any dates as you demand, Calico. With such a tiny team and the past mistakes they cannot assure anyone that something will be finished by any date that is not years away. Sure, the pressure grows the longer it takes, but they'll relieve the pressure by releasing TPa4, then the beta. If you don't like it you better come to terms with it because unless something unexpected happens to PS that's exactly where I see it going.

I am very sympathetic to all those unhappy pre-purchasers. Let's hope for good news from PS.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: inkydigit on June 24, 2008, 02:37:16 pm
Quote from: Zylot on June 24, 2008, 10:55:00 am
..............And we've come 'round full circle.  Inky can wave a checkered flag, the crowd will cheer, a thread like this will reappear, and I'll be up in the stands munchin' on a hotdog (or whatever you eat in a race).

is this me?
if so, what do you mean?
if not, ignore me!
cheers
inky
(searches for checkered flag, just incase)
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 24, 2008, 02:58:59 pm
Yes it's you, and I need your support when we finally have a beta release so you can wave a checkered flag, and we can all be like "Ohh, ahh" an'stuff.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: inkydigit on June 24, 2008, 04:04:07 pm
Quote from: Zylot on June 24, 2008, 02:58:59 pm
Yes it's you, and I need your support when we finally have a beta release so you can wave a checkered flag, and we can all be like "Ohh, ahh" an'stuff.

I still dont quite get you?

Title: Re: Dates
Post by: DeathTwister on June 24, 2008, 07:01:37 pm
I agree with everyone above.

  I just started using the new updated version and it is buggier then the old version, nothing works right at all.  Transparencies are wonderful and the multithreading is awesome, but the Interface is so dam slow I can barley move around in it now and I have 3 gigs of ram, shesh and would have thought a emergency patches were to be had they are so bad, and now your telling me there in none to be had? Way lame PS way lame and I agree with people, if this company was in the US, they6 would be shut down toot sweet for sure.  I am so disapointed in TGD2 I am about to ask for my money back if they do not get shits together here pretty quick.  They say they don't have funding? well hell boys go out and get some deep pockets then, but we need to get what we have paid for and in a timely manner at this point.  I have been waiting for what I paid for for over a year now, and they still have no intentions of allowing us to bring in models and other resources.  Dam SHORT SIGHTED OF THEM IN MY OPINION.

  Now tell me again why it was such a good deal to buy the full version or pay the full price starting January first 08?  And where is the said afore mention product we were supposed to have?  Maybe dump the programmers you got and hire better programmers that work harder and are smarter would be a better start don't ya think at this point?

I am one of a 2 man team and we are just about done with a full video game Virtual world that usually takes teams of 25 or more 3-5 years to complete, so if you hired well it don't take many people to get the job done right within deadlines, so maybe you need to look closer into that area, I know I sure would. Unless they are idiots of course, then no matter how many people you hire, it will never get finished, humm, maybe some of that going on here ya think?

Reading this post just disgusted me no end, shesh SAME OLD SAME OLD, AND PASS THE BUCK TO R&D EASY COP OUT.  Just think if we all asked for our money back, PS would go under I think, so they better get to work and quit whinning to us, we paid for our software so now? where is it?  We will keep bugging you until you do your job right /smiles.........

I as well love TGD2, but not that5 much at this point.  More agravated then happy now, and now add disgusted to it as well.

DeathTwister
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: gregsandor on June 24, 2008, 07:23:18 pm
DeathTwister, what did you mean by this: "they still have no intentions of allowing us to bring in models and other resources"?
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: jaf on June 24, 2008, 07:44:22 pm
I paid my money for tg2 after reading the information at the PS site about the upcoming release.  At that time, I didn't realize there was a problem, but I can see from these forum messages that this has been an ongoing discussion.

Anyway, I've probably lived my last Spring and may see another New Year (medical problems I prefer not to get into.)  So while it may be fine for some to wait a year or two, my perspective is a bit different.

But I have several other programs I can learn and enjoy.  The money isn't important -- I just feel mislead.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: JimB on June 24, 2008, 09:05:25 pm
Opinions are like assholes - everyone's got one.

PG sums it up quite nicely IMHO:
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg44895#msg44895

Jaf, sorry to hear of your troubles.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 24, 2008, 09:19:23 pm
Some opinions matter.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: JohnnyBoy on June 24, 2008, 10:35:07 pm
I have to say that these criticisms are way over the top. We already have access to at least 90% of the promised product and most of what is missing are things like a cleaned up UI, SDK, documentation, animation editor. I would hate to see what would happen if you ordered a hamburger and it was missing the pickle. :)
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 24, 2008, 11:08:22 pm
Who the hell do you think you are, dude?  This is absolutely none of your business.  I didn't pay you and I don't need your stupid comments.


Quote from: JohnnyBoy on June 24, 2008, 10:35:07 pm
I have to say that these criticisms are way over the top. We already have access to at least 90% of the promised product and most of what is missing are things like a cleaned up UI, SDK, documentation, animation editor. I would hate to see what would happen if you ordered a hamburger and it was missing the pickle. :)
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: funnylookingkid on June 24, 2008, 11:27:16 pm
I haven't paid, because I'm just a student and I don't have that kind of money to throw around. Moreover, I work in fast food, so I can appreciate JohnnyBoy's analogy. But I think he's wrong.

From what I've seen (and I've followed things here since before the tech preview was out), a better analogy would be going to get a cheeseburger at a new place in town, then having to wait for half an hour, and then they tell you that they're out of cheese, so it will just have to be a hamburger, and then you get it with the bun squished... and also, missing a pickle. If there was a wait and the product came and was entirely worth it, the best cheeseburger ever, it would be fine. If there was little wait and the product came with a very small number of flaws that could be fixed in a timely manner (by the analogy, asking for a new cheeseburger because they messed up the first one, and then actually receiving one), then it might be fine.

For many, one of these failures would make the initial visit bearable but not enjoyable, and probably ensure that no repeat visit would ever be made. Multiple failures, however, make even the initial visit unpleasant in every respect, and not only ensure that no repeat visit will ever be made, but also likely result in a personal smear campaign against whichever business was responsible for the failure. In fast food, we fear this. Planetside should too.

Extend the analogy as you will. I'm waiting for something cool to happen - if it ever does, then I might buy. If it doesn't, then I never expect to have anything to do with Planetside, if it could even survive beyond such a massive failure.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Cyber-Angel on June 24, 2008, 11:51:19 pm
Well here we go...again!!!

Can we for the sake of civility or semblance thereof any way agree that Planetside are damned if they do and if the don't, that is my take on what seems in this thread is old, well trodden ground with nothing new added for or against the argument.

At this time the case for any kind of date is a mote point at this time, further more personnel attacks serve nothing other than to add fuel to an all ready raging fire; that is to say they do not further the cause and just turn nice people into angry ones.

At this point all I care about is that when TG2 dose go gold weather its this year or five years from now, is that it works as advertised within what Planetside can do with the resources they have, now if some thing comes up it should be reported here in the usual manor; end of story.

The watch phrase around these here parts should be "It will be done when its good and ready and not before" if Y'all Yokels can't comprehend this simple fact, then please do some thing about the education you never had.

Screaming for some thing to get done doesn't make it happen any faster, in fact it is the other way round and slows things down; adds to stress and loss of motivation and creativity none of the above are conducive to software development at the best of times, and certainly don't help when to hazarded a guess you are trying to develop some thing as complicated as TG2 (As an aside if you don't know any programmers and I know two of them, try to know some and find out to the best of of level of comprehension what they do.). End of Line.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel     ::)

               
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Harvey Birdman on June 24, 2008, 11:58:43 pm
All right, I'll do something - I'll demand my money back.

Planetside owes every single person who has given them money the option of getting their money back and opting out of a process they were duped into.

We all know it would probably break them.

Good. They have it coming to them.

And JimB - my opinion damn well does matter here, and so does that of every other paying customer. I paid $200 to make sure it did. And if you or any other surrogate of PS asserts otherwise, then let them give me my money back.

Planetside is a crooked scam.

If you don't like reading this, C-A, you can send me the $200 yourself. Otherwise shut up and go away.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 12:06:37 am
How about everyone overreact and yell at people solely for presenting an alternate opinion and make asses of themselves.

Demanding Cyber to pay you $200 soley because he has a differing opinion.
Yelling at people not to post in a public forum because they don't work for planetside?

How about everyone calms the hell down.

Harvey wants a refund, alright fine, go email support and try to get one.  I'm all for it, I'm sure PS understands where teh dissent is coming from.   Those of us who feel planetside is doing what they can will keep using the version of TG2 we have.  Those not content and work with them to get a refund.

I don't see why we need personal attacks and attempts to aggrivate one another.  Chill out, it's a peice of software.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: gregsandor on June 25, 2008, 12:08:28 am
Quote from: Harvey Birdman on June 24, 2008, 11:58:43 pm
All right, I'll do something - I'll demand my money back.

Planetside owes every single person who has given them money the option of getting their money back and opting out of a process they were duped into.

We all know it would probably break them.

Good. They have it coming to them.

And JimB - my opinion damn well does matter here, and so does that of every other paying customer. I paid $200 to make sure it did. And if you or any other surrogate of PS asserts otherwise, then let them give me my money back.

Planetside is a crooked scam.

If you don't like reading this, C-A, you can send me the $200 yourself. Otherwise shut up and go away.


Harvey,
Just ask for a refund.

I don't want my money back, i want all you rocket surgeons to come to this thread http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=4285.0 and help me hack a method for animating groups of spaceships.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Harvey Birdman on June 25, 2008, 12:25:53 am
Greg - 6 months ago I'd have been glad to help. (I did read the thread.) Now, I won't do anything that is going to support PS's sales and marketing. Sorry, man - nothing personal.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: gregsandor on June 25, 2008, 12:28:06 am
ffs HB,
This isn't about planetside man, its about my animation.  Please distinguish between the artists and the toolmakers.  Help a  brother out, lol.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Harvey Birdman on June 25, 2008, 12:35:04 am
 ;D

That was the first thing I've seen here in a long time that made me smile.

I'll look at it and if I come up with anything I'll email you. Probably not till tomorrow. Still can't connect function networks to paramater values on other shaders/objects... that was the first thing I thought of. Then you could have had individual offset values for the different ships, and animated them with a common mathematically described trajectory...

Have you thought of using Vue?

;)
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: gregsandor on June 25, 2008, 12:36:40 am
Awesome!  Thanks.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Cyber-Angel on June 25, 2008, 12:47:04 am
I am not going to go away nor am I going to give any one here one red cent, let alone $200 end of story. I too just for the record am on of those who pre-purchased, but for the here and now am perfectly happy with the lot I have, clearly not every one is; and I have got off on the wrong foot then let me say ten thousand pardons to whom ever it was.

Every one is entitled to state their case I have stated mine others have theirs, so lets agree to disagree and move along.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel         
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Harvey Birdman on June 25, 2008, 12:59:02 am
Yeah... sorry. That was probably uncalled for. I'm pretty pissed about this situation.

And that's the ONLY thing in this thread I apologize for.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: zhotfire on June 25, 2008, 03:12:42 am
Hi folks! Opinions for everyone! Yay!  ;)

TG has been (and still is) one of my favorite hobbies. It introduced me to 3D landscape art... for free!
I dabbled for hours and loved every minute of it... so for the price of 2 video games, I bought a license so I could render 0.9x images larger and support the people who made the program (the credit towards the next version was a nice incentive too).

So here we are, after PS made the mistake of offering us the chance to work with a beta and to save some dough on the final product. I fully accept that I'm working(playing) with beta software, with complex bits of code that could explode at any moment destroying the universe! :o Well, maybe not, but I understand how one change can create an exponential problem leading to unexpected delays, work-a-rounds and sometimes a complete re-think of how to go about a particular task.

I also understand why some are "concerned" about the mounting delays. You've paid for a product and expect it to be delivered by the date quoted. If the delays are unacceptable, you should look for another product. If you no longer want the finished product you've paid for, then ask for a refund. Those who were relying on the final release for their livelyhood should ask themselves why they invested in a program that was in beta and undoubtedly destined for delays (that's the way betas usually work).  :(

For me, as I said, just a hobby. I'm willing to wait for the final product. That said, I have several other toys to play with, so I have plenty to keep me busy until that day arrives.

Peace, love and patience everyone...
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: dandelO on June 25, 2008, 06:58:25 am
Quote(by the analogy, asking for a new cheeseburger because they messed up the first one, and then actually receiving one), then it might be fine.


The thing is, once you complain about your 'cheeseburger', do you get a humble apology and a perfect replacement as compensation or, does the patty-flipper spit in it, for your trouble?

There's a thing called diplomacy, that goes a long way when there are disgruntled parties, on either side.
Many are annoyed about the delay (and the possibility in their minds, that their purchased hamburger is never coming!), but a fussy customer rarely recieves the courtesy they feel they are due, it's nice to be nice in other words.
PS clearly have the patience for their product but, do they have the tolerance for the near-abuse in some of these threads? Yup, they've f*cked up by releasing dates when they could have waited but, I believe they are working hard for it, their mistakes are known to them better than known to us because, their own reputations are resting on this. Life/reputations/Christ, mental health even, can be broken after so much pissing and moaning is directed towards you. Over $200/£100? Would you break lifes/companies for that when they are clearly still trying to meet your demands?
Matt's doing well not to have just pulled the plug on this forum(or the entire project). Or said 'Right, let's get me a gun, this isn't worth it!' Then, maybe, once the burger company's done a runner with your $200 and abandoned you at the counter, there'd be a right to call him a fraudster, theif, etc. Not when the poor guy's drowning in a sea of fussy customers and still trying(for his benefit AND yours) to tread water. Jo has even said, in this thread, that this is doing his BP no good! C'mon, those guys aren't here to bring their personal lifes into this, we're all lucky their still taking this into their lives though! I don't know that I'd want to stick with it.

PS have not done a runner with anyones money. They are still here and working through it. No one wants TG2 more than them, I'm assuming. This is a public place, and surely, their lives/reputations would be finished in this business, were they to run.

Maybe though, I'm the fool. Some people/companies DO take your trust for weakness.
And ones like me, who still believe that a man's word is his bond, are usually the ones that end up standing at the counter, smiling politely, twiddling thumbs patiently, as the numbers of staff behind the counter first begins to dwindle, tapping my fingers now, and glancing more often with each minute at my watch, as the cleaner comes in with his mop, then realising there's no one here but me...
I don't see that happening here but, maybe I am the fool... At least I've not bought it yet!

Everyone's unhappy with the wait, I do appreciatte the pre-purchaser's anguish in all of this but, hostility really makes things worse all round for everyone, is my point.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 07:01:50 am
It's really none of your business, if Harvey wants his money back.


Quote from: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 12:06:37 am
Chill out, it's a peice of software.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 07:05:03 am
What final product?  Who told you there will actually be one and told you a due date?


Quote from: zhotfire on June 25, 2008, 03:12:42 am
I'm willing to wait for the final product.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 07:12:06 am
I bought TG2 under Planetside's announcement that there would be a due date of the end of 2007.  This is the only reason I purchased it - a finished product and not full of bugs.  I understand Matt's and Jo's frustrations and their possible helpless feelings at this point.  So I'm not disregarding that.  What would help them (and us, since we paid for it) would be to set realistic dates and then work like it matters to hit that date.  Nothing else will help this situation.

What we have is an open tendency to not finish something and that is killing Planetside's reputation. 

Suck up, if you want, by slamming me for being reasonable.  But, I'm not going to be the only one who notices this behavior.  My expectation is that it will change.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: JimB on June 25, 2008, 07:51:29 am
I also have an asshole and am entitled to vent it just like anyone else, including you Harvey. I don't like being called a 'surrogate' though, as I have my own independent opinion of the app and Planetside, am not affiliated to them in any way being just as much a customer as anyone else here, and my own independent opinion is I think it costs peanuts and should cost a lot more. That would sort out all of these problems almost overnight. But that's for them to decide and in the meantime I'm happy to use it. As I've said elsewhere, if the same hysterical accusations were made against British builders, 90% of them would be locked up in prison permanently. I sincerely hope that in future Planetside rethink their business model and go for a higher price to pay for the kind of capabilities that some here seem to demand and get pissed off about when (surprise, surprise) things take longer than anyone, including the makers, expected. In the meantime I think it's more than worth its cost, is useable if you apply some smarts, and I will happily continue to use it on a daily basis. I've used fully-fledged 3D s/w software costing over 50 times as much, that does only 20 times what TG does (including extortionate yearly maintenance rates for an upgrade and even the notion of direct support), screw up so royally and be delayed in official release versions that what's going on with TG2 is laughable in comparison.

They're not fraudsters or thieves, especially after you haven't even asked for your money back but instead decided to make outrageous accusations on a public forum. They're just later than planned with delivery and are working their arses off to make it right. As far as I'm concerned they're honourable guys who made over-optimistic projections. But I have to add they were made after considerable ranting and raving on this very forum. If they were builders they'd be demanding more money for that, which they're not.

My asshole, my fart.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: dandelO on June 25, 2008, 08:22:13 am
Don't think I'm sucking up Calico, not the case. There's nothing more sickening than an ass licker. I just think that things can only go from bad to worse when there is more negative fuel being added to the fire. I've no argument with anyone here.

My opinion on the matter of refunds is, anyone who has bought any product and, is unsatisfied with it in any way, is completely within their rights to just ask and recieve it, without qualm, given that proof of the purchase is produced AND only upon return of the said product to the distributors. Simple.
And who wants to be stuck behind a fussy customer in a queue, who's shouting and making a show at the 'charlatans, theives, useless planks, fraudsters, etc.' who run this place?
Joe Public is stuck behind that idiot who had a complaint and couldn't just settle it ammicably(this is analogous, before anyone comes at me with 'who're you calling an idiot?'), who is making everyone late for the rest of the day.

I don't know, maybe Matt is ignoring/refusing people if they have asked for refunds personally and that's why there is need to move onto the next closest method of communication, these forums. I don't think so.

And, if no one's noticed, PS aren't rising to the goading in these threads anyway, they don't have a date, and have said in past threads that they will not give one anymore, if I remember correctly.

More positive feedback from them about actual developement would be very much appreciated by everyone though.

Calico, I understand your frustration. I have no argument with you, man.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 09:57:53 am
To make sure I'm clear, I'm not presently accusing Planetside of fraud. 

What I think might be a good idea, to go along with what JimB stated, would be if Planetside would just set a date for this low price, say in a few months.  After that date, the software would no longer be available in its broken state.  Then, once it is actually finished, 2.0, GOLDEN, wahlah the software will be available for sale at the new retail price, which I assume will be much more expensive.

This way, if people want to get in early, they have a deadline and Planetside can show they mean to provide a final product that is not broken.  Of course, when it comes out as a completed program, then the price will skyrocket.  But, those who have had good faith in Planetside will have been blessed by getting in on the ground level.

This or any other plan that eliminates this wilderness of paying customers getting Alpha software that has no final date would redeem Planetside's reputation for TG2.  What other ideas are feasible?  Of course, Planetside can blow this off, but it might help and that's where I'm aiming.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 10:37:52 am
See, I am all bout Harvey getting his money back, I feel it's justified.  What I disagree with you on, Calico, is the idea of getting date.  I think we've proven that getting dates does nothing.

What *I* would like to see, is some sort of dev blog/timeline.

A list of things: "This is what we need before the next update" and "This is what we need before gold"

Kinda like:
1) Blah blah
2) SSS
3) Fix bug xyz
4) add this
5) words

6) fix bug abc [currently being worked on]
7 -> 17) items already fixed in the dev process.

Do you see what I mean here, I know my example sucks but that's the jist of it.  We need more active information, we need to see not some arbitrary when, but an easy to understand why.  If we can see how far off they are from any update or beta candidate, we'll have a much clearer idea of what's going on then just "we're releasing it in Sept."
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 11:01:20 am
Unless you're a programmer and have the data to show otherwise, your statement isn't accurate.  Actually, dates are critical for any project.  It's a real world statistic.  Software development needs a clear project deadline, even if there are end-users that change everything around 20 times.  But, in this case, Planetside actually has the liberty to be their own project manager and they are their own end-users that they need to satisfy.  Requirements for TG2 come from them.  So Planetside is in the best shape to create their own dropdead dates.

Really, you should consider getting into the world of development long enough to find out how many people / companies would agree with you about a date.

Stop acting the authority, unless you have something real to show.  I'm listening.


Quote from: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 10:37:52 am
What I disagree with you on, Calico, is the idea of getting date.  I think we've proven that getting dates does nothing.

Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 11:14:05 am
I think you put way too much context into anything I say.  I *again* state that I am not the authority on anything.  My statement of knowing that a date won't help stems solely from the fact that we've had dates from planetside before that have yielded nothing.  They came and went.

This is why I proposed a much more interactive (IE, PS interacting with it's users to give them up-to-date info) way of showing us how far along the process is and when we'll likely see a release.  Instead of some shimmering object in the distance, we have a path to walk along (so to speak).

I'd like to hear your ideas on that, the bulk of my previous post, as opposed to just another attack on my charatcer based on one line in the whole post taken way out of context.

Maybe instead of asking for yet another release date, we should *all* work together tog et something more concrete so we don't feel so lef tin the dark.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Harvey Birdman on June 25, 2008, 11:40:41 am
You want to all work together on something meaningful? Demand the crooks give everyone their money back. Anything else is just opening the door to more BS from Planetside.

They have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't give a rats ass about the integrity of their promises to us. So what is the point on insisting on more 'commitment' from them? They will lie through their teeth yet again, and in the end they will exploit your trust and use it to rip off more people.

Planetside is crooked. Deal with it. They've stolen from every one who paid early, and it's clearly the only modus operandi they know.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 12:17:05 pm
Zylot, this is the main problem.  You see, this is what has already been done in TG .9, where we just encourage and hope for updates, while knowing that is likely there might not be a 1.0.  In my opinion (here goes, JimB  ;D ), the way to break that and get to a valid end-result is for the programmers to create a timeline and stay with it.  The announcing of this timeline, while eliminating more users buying something that is in an Alpha state by having a time limit on when sales of the Alpha version are available, could help alleviate the constant stuff we're dealing with here. 

Then, when it's live, the people who trusted Planetside and bought beforehand are rewarded with the final beauty.  Those who waited to see what happens would now have to pay that chunk of change.  It's my opinion, as was JimB's  ;D, that the final should be expensive.  There will be nothing available out there, including Vue, that could do what TG2 could do, once working correctly.


Quote from: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 11:14:05 am
I think you put way too much context into anything I say.  I *again* state that I am not the authority on anything.  My statement of knowing that a date won't help stems solely from the fact that we've had dates from planetside before that have yielded nothing.  They came and went.

This is why I proposed a much more interactive (IE, PS interacting with it's users to give them up-to-date info) way of showing us how far along the process is and when we'll likely see a release.  Instead of some shimmering object in the distance, we have a path to walk along (so to speak).

I'd like to hear your ideas on that, the bulk of my previous post, as opposed to just another attack on my charatcer based on one line in the whole post taken way out of context.

Maybe instead of asking for yet another release date, we should *all* work together tog et something more concrete so we don't feel so lef tin the dark.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Ironshirt on June 25, 2008, 12:20:51 pm
I don't want my money back.  I'm very happy with what I have at the moment and will get in the future - so please,please stop talking for all and clear this per PM!

If we have look at the gallery, we can see that TG2 is already far better than a 'not finished something'....
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 12:25:22 pm
An actively updated timeline is exactly what I feel we need.  I think Oyshan said earlier that if he were to state the current projected release date, it wouldn't help at all, or something along those lines...  lets see...

"If we were to give a release date, to be truly "safe" it would have to be much further in the future than would really bring anyone comfort anyway. I think it's clear from past history that specifying dates just doesn't work and doesn't make anyone happier for long."

I think that summed it up.  He's wrong though, I feel that even if the date is a year down the line, or more, at least it shows a realistic and accurate figure we can hold to. 

Even more so, if it were backed up with an active timeline, updates on what's now working, what's fixed, what the current focus, etc.. (frequently mind you, not once a month or what have you) then we'd have much more of a trust built between the increasingly worried/aggrivated users and the devs. 
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Harvey Birdman on June 25, 2008, 12:30:39 pm
These suggestions have been repeatedly made and ignored. What you guys don't understand is that they don't want to show a schedule. Not because it would put pressure on them, but because it would lead to just this sort of scene eventually, when it became clear, once again, that they had no intention of sticking to it.

The only people who would be unhappy with an honest statement of PS's intentions would be Planetside. Their fraudently acquired revenue stream would dry up. So they keep lying and the money keeps coming in.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: JimB on June 25, 2008, 01:39:42 pm
Quote from: Harvey Birdman on June 25, 2008, 12:30:39 pm
What you guys don't understand is that they don't want to show a schedule.


It's none of our business what their schedule is; I know I wouldn't show it. It's not our company and they don't owe us anything in that way.

Some people seem to think they have a right to make Planetside's decisions for them. Big mistake.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 01:42:30 pm
JimB:

Calico and Myself are discussing what can be done to restore some of the faith in the fact that we'll get a final product.  though we both clearly disagree on a number of points, I don't think tossing around ideas that big a deal.

If planetside wants to impliment or supply any of the items we discuss is entirely up to them, but I think it's as important that they know how their user base feels, is as equally as important that we know what's going around with development.  Open communication is the key.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: JimB on June 25, 2008, 02:13:27 pm
Zylot, that's all well and good, and I really do agree that keeping the clinet based informed can be a good thing.

However, I really don't believe the forum has an implicit right to demand to know what's going on. A good example is World machine. Stephen very wisely set up a blog; Very simple, very clean, very manageable. The occasional note to say "I've done this" and "I'm doing that". But, it still doesn't mean we should be expected to be told everything, because what they tell us they also tell the world, and that includes any competition or potential competition. And then if they schedule it in public, all the competition has to do is assign half a dozen code monkeys to the task and strive to release it before Planetside can. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Wanting to know is fully understandable, but that doesn't really mean it's a right to know. Planetside have a been a trillion times more accommodating to the forum than most companies would be IMHO, and I think a balance has tipped just a bit too much the wrong way. Then when they understandably do keep stuff under wraps, which is strictly speaking commercial information, there's a riot.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: PG on June 25, 2008, 02:19:24 pm
Quote from: calico on June 25, 2008, 11:01:20 am
Unless you're a programmer and have the data to show otherwise, your statement isn't accurate.  Actually, dates are critical for any project.


Ubisoft don't agree with you there  ;D

Harvey: I've noticed a couple of times that you've said planetside have admitted to lying about the release dates. Where exactly did they say this?
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Oshyan on June 25, 2008, 02:44:46 pm
Harvey's statement is a mischaracterization of something I said earlier in this thread:
QuoteIf we were to give a release date, to be truly "safe" it would have to be much further in the future than would really bring anyone comfort anyway. I think it's clear from past history that specifying dates just doesn't work and doesn't make anyone happier for long.

By which I simply meant that it would be foolish for us to set another release date and then miss it, as has unfortunately happened several times before. We have never set a release date without the intention of meeting it, but it has become clear that we have made incorrect estimates in the past, and so we have decided not to make public estimates anymore.

It's not that we expect to be unaccountable, nor that we don't have a sense of the time pressure here - believe me we are well aware of that. It is simply that we are working as hard as we can and the release will be available as soon as it can, and trying to say publicly when we think that will be has clearly not worked well in the past. That is simply an unfortunate reality. When it is certain that release is imminent we can safely announce it and avoid breaking promises, and I think that is in everyone's best interest.

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 03:20:56 pm
Tell me, Oshyan, how this is really different than the last missed 1.0.  You see, I never bought that for the same reason I wouldn't buy this now, if I knew there wouldn't be an actual due date.  Can you see the whole industry going this way - telling your customers to keep waiting, but I really mean it this time?  I just wonder how anyone here can keep just thinking Planetside is just believable, no matter what you do.

I'll go by what you do.  No release means there is no release.  It really calls into question everyone's integrity from top to bottom.  It's too bad for you guys that it's this way, but to keep taking abuse from all of the people on this website for wanting what I paid for is really a far reach.



Quote from: Oshyan on June 25, 2008, 02:44:46 pm
It's not that we expect to be unaccountable, nor that we don't have a sense of the time pressure here - believe me we are well aware of that. It is simply that we are working as hard as we can and the release will be available as soon as it can, and trying to say publicly when we think that will be has clearly not worked well in the past. That is simply an unfortunate reality. When it is certain that release is imminent we can safely announce it and avoid breaking promises, and I think that is in everyone's best interest.

- Oshyan


Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 03:22:27 pm
They have dates and missing them hurts most companies, game companies included.  The two main differences are:

1.  Ubisoft doesn't release their product until it's finished
2.  The Ubisoft people are gaming, which represents a lot of young people and not a lot of businesses.  Business software doesn't work this way.


Quote from: PG on June 25, 2008, 02:19:24 pm
Quote from: calico on June 25, 2008, 11:01:20 am
Unless you're a programmer and have the data to show otherwise, your statement isn't accurate.  Actually, dates are critical for any project.


Ubisoft don't agree with you there  ;D

Harvey: I've noticed a couple of times that you've said planetside have admitted to lying about the release dates. Where exactly did they say this?
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 03:25:46 pm
JimB,

Your expectations are clearly based upon your working relationship with Planetside and / or their product.  But, your level of expectation should be that you get what you were promised, which probably isn't a stretch for someone already connected to all of this.  If the customer base for Planetside is the same as the Vue crowd, then I'd say the level of professionalism and meeting customers where they are might have some influence on the market.  This is especially true if someone like eOn comes up with a new package similar to TG2.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 03:31:15 pm
That accommodation that you mention might be true in how they talk to their customer base, though id Software has a pretty good communication venue.  But, this accommodation appears to be missing the mark with the actual release and marketing of the product.  I actually only bought TG2 to get a final product by the end of 2007.  Many here have.  I understood waiting a few weeks, even months, while they worked on something.  But, now it's been 6 months and that without a real compass on which way we're going.  From a paying customer who hasn't made money from TG2, this is not accommodating.

Accommodation would have been a timely release and it also would have meant clarification about how much longer that actually meant, when it went sour.  As of now, we have no real clue, except promises.  I can see why you don't feel burnt.  You made your money back.  Many here haven't.


Quote from: JimB on June 25, 2008, 02:13:27 pm
Planetside have a been a trillion times more accommodating to the forum than most companies would be IMHO, and I think a balance has tipped just a bit too much the wrong way. Then when they understandably do keep stuff under wraps, which is strictly speaking commercial information, there's a riot.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Oshyan on June 25, 2008, 03:41:30 pm
Quote from: calico on June 25, 2008, 03:20:56 pm
Tell me, Oshyan, how this is really different that the last missed 1.0.  You see, I never bought that for the same reason I wouldn't buy this now, if I knew there wouldn't be an actual due date.  Can you see the whole industry going this way - telling your customers to keep waiting, but I really mean it this time?  I just wonder how anyone here can keep just thinking Planetside is just believable, no matter what you do.

All I can say is that things are very different now than they were in the TG 0.9 days, and that TG2 *will* reach a final release. But there is nothing I can do or say at this point to actually prove that. Only time and results will tell. Your frustration with that fact is understandable, and if you are uncomfortable waiting to find out if we will really come through, you can request a refund.

Had we known it would take this long we no doubt would have started pre-purchases at a later date. But I still believe it is a valid approach to funding development, provided your customers are properly informed of what they're getting, and provided it is not initiated too far off from final release, or if it is that those who do choose to pre-purchase are made aware that there is no set date for the final product. This is not an approach that is unique to Planetside, we were certainly not the first to try it. Perhaps we should have learned more from the lessons of those before us, but in the end it was successful for others like Maxwell (which *has* reached final product status and continues to be developed), and it will be successful here, despite the mistakes that have been made.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: PG on June 25, 2008, 04:05:20 pm
The one thing I'd like to point out is that there is, and to my recollection, never has been a release date for the "GOLD" product, sure we've had about a billion suggestions of when that could be but I generally take those sorts of stab-in-the-dark-with-a-usb-stick guesses with a pinch of arsenic, and the day I genuinely believe that a piece of software is released on the day people said it would be is the day I stick my underwear on my head and call myself Loony McSpackypants. The reason I brought up Ubisoft is because they're a prime example of a company who has years of release experience and still manage to cock it up EVERY SINGLE TIME. So I heartily encourage you to take your £100 back and give it a try, I'll even be your first prepurchaser and throw rocks at your window till you release your product and if your preparing yourself to write a scathing reply illustrating how useless that approach would be on my part then congratulations because you've finally understood my point.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: JohnnyBoy on June 25, 2008, 06:09:36 pm
I'm sorry you feel that way, rest assured that every comment or PM you post in the future will be ignored. Anything I post will in no way relate to any comments you make.

Best regards, John

Quote from: calico on June 24, 2008, 11:08:22 pm
Who the hell do you think you are, dude?  This is absolutely none of your business.  I didn't pay you and I don't need your stupid comments.


Quote from: JohnnyBoy on June 24, 2008, 10:35:07 pm
I have to say that these criticisms are way over the top. We already have access to at least 90% of the promised product and most of what is missing are things like a cleaned up UI, SDK, documentation, animation editor. I would hate to see what would happen if you ordered a hamburger and it was missing the pickle. :)

Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 07:45:40 pm
Remember, I'm not doubting you....well, er...sort of.  But, I'm waiting.  For now.

As for super-early testers, maybe you could give a select few of these TG3 for free.   :o  I still don't like the idea of paying when it is so raw.  Maybe at Beta stage, but for me - not Alpha.

I appreciate your gracious response.  Just like Jo and Matt. 


Quote from: Oshyan on June 25, 2008, 03:41:30 pm
...you can request a refund.

Had we known it would take this long we no doubt would have started pre-purchases at a later date.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 07:47:15 pm
PG, I know this makes you feel better, but it's really useless to say this stuff to me.  I'm actually trying to be helpful.  I don't have any time for nonsense.


Quote from: PG on June 25, 2008, 04:05:20 pm
The one thing I'd like to point out is that there is, and to my recollection, never has been a release date for the "GOLD" product, sure we've had about a billion suggestions of when that could be but I generally take those sorts of stab-in-the-dark-with-a-usb-stick guesses with a pinch of arsenic, and the day I genuinely believe that a piece of software is released on the day people said it would be is the day I stick my underwear on my head and call myself Loony McSpackypants. The reason I brought up Ubisoft is because they're a prime example of a company who has years of release experience and still manage to cock it up EVERY SINGLE TIME. So I heartily encourage you to take your £100 back and give it a try, I'll even be your first prepurchaser and throw rocks at your window till you release your product and if your preparing yourself to write a scathing reply illustrating how useless that approach would be on my part then congratulations because you've finally understood my point.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 25, 2008, 07:53:52 pm
It really isn't your business to tell me what I'm doing with my own money.  What you said doesn't make any sense.  Maybe you have been using a different product than I have, but the Alpha needs to be a long way from the final.

I don't have time for this.



Quote from: JohnnyBoy on June 25, 2008, 06:09:36 pm
I'm sorry you feel that way, rest assured that every comment or PM you post in the future will be ignored. Anything I post will in no way relate to any comments you make.

Best regards, John

Quote from: calico on June 24, 2008, 11:08:22 pm
Who the hell do you think you are, dude?  This is absolutely none of your business.  I didn't pay you and I don't need your stupid comments.


Quote from: JohnnyBoy on June 24, 2008, 10:35:07 pm
I have to say that these criticisms are way over the top. We already have access to at least 90% of the promised product and most of what is missing are things like a cleaned up UI, SDK, documentation, animation editor. I would hate to see what would happen if you ordered a hamburger and it was missing the pickle. :)


Title: Re: Dates
Post by: Mid-Knight Acchan on June 25, 2008, 11:34:40 pm
I think the pre-purchase to be a stock.
When I invest it in the thing which is not a finished product, and TG2 was completed, it becomes the property.

I cannot deny that I am over a fixed date.

However,

Do not you believe it?
It is important that I talk.
Exchange of opinions and martial arts offer are duty of the PS.
Because we are stockholders.  ;)

The developer wants you to concentrate all energy on production above all.

I wait for TP4 for pleasure. :-*
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: PG on June 26, 2008, 02:02:25 pm
Quote from: calico on June 25, 2008, 07:47:15 pm
PG, I know this makes you feel better, but it's really useless to say this stuff to me.  I'm actually trying to be helpful.  I don't have any time for nonsense.


Quote from: PG on June 25, 2008, 04:05:20 pm
The one thing I'd like to point out is that there is, and to my recollection, never has been a release date for the "GOLD" product, sure we've had about a billion suggestions of when that could be but I generally take those sorts of stab-in-the-dark-with-a-usb-stick guesses with a pinch of arsenic, and the day I genuinely believe that a piece of software is released on the day people said it would be is the day I stick my underwear on my head and call myself Loony McSpackypants. The reason I brought up Ubisoft is because they're a prime example of a company who has years of release experience and still manage to cock it up EVERY SINGLE TIME. So I heartily encourage you to take your £100 back and give it a try, I'll even be your first prepurchaser and throw rocks at your window till you release your product and if your preparing yourself to write a scathing reply illustrating how useless that approach would be on my part then congratulations because you've finally understood my point.



Well stop replying then
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: LeeReynolds on June 26, 2008, 03:23:53 pm
I agree that looking at the pre-purchase as an investment is a wise perspective. Already Planetside has developed an amazing product, and look forward to seeing the final version. I have every intention of purchasing a copy myself as soon as possible ($200 might be small compared to other similar products, but it's a lot for me... I only have $55 saved up so far... need a few more Rentacoder jobs under my belt). I can think of few examples of great software that wasn't pushed back significantly from its original release date. If dates were promised to purchasers of the pre-purchase, and those dates haven't been kept, then refunds should be given if requested (As they have been from what I understand. As in the case of Harvey Birdman). However, if I understand correctly, the money given for the pre-purchase is being used as capital for Planetside, and, I would assume, going mostly toward development of TG2 and the sustenance of the developers. Therefore, it seems that it would only be decent of those who have invested in the future product to sit patiently and wait for their investment to pay off. If folks are agitated by the release date delays because they were depending on a final release for a current project that needs Terragen 2 in its final state, then my only advice is to make sure to account for such delays in your projects in the future. The technology preview seems to do a lot in its current state anyway, so use that. I have some experience as a programmer, and know that large projects often have many unforeseeable bugs that do take much time to resolve, and release dates should be fluid and tentative. Tweaking and perfecting does always take the most time. Its like if washing a car takes 15 minutes, detailing it to perfection could take an hour or more. The most obvious difference could come from the wash, but if you really care about the car (or Terragen 2 in this case) you'll understand the time it takes. This is not to say that Planetside needs to take their time too much... I'm getting really eager to see the final version come out myself...

On another subject, despite my hatred for people who play "Hall Monitor" in forums, I feel I must comment on the disrespectful and outright rude behavior some have shown on these threads. From what I have seen of the Terragen community it is typically supportive, friendly, and helpful. However many posts i have seen on this topic have been atrocious. "Manners" are not something that I hold in high value, but there are arenas where certain attitudes and language are simply inappropriate. Don't make these forums a bad thing by being an ass and filling them with childish trash. All this bickering won't get anyone anywhere. Calico has made his point, now its time for him to shut up. I really appreciate that Planetside hasn't been very controlling of their forum, but it may be time for them to step in and stop this.</ranting>

P.S. Planetside should also be decent and update the website: "...final release of Terragen 2, scheduled for completion in 2007..." at http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tg2/prepurchase_tg2.shtml. Also, I don't believe that anyone at Planetside was lying about dates. I'm hoping that any previously set dates are honest estimates. Any future dates should be clearly labelled and accepted as such.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: neuspadrin on June 26, 2008, 03:36:50 pm
Quote from: LeeReynolds on June 26, 2008, 03:23:53 pm
Its like if washing a car takes 15 minutes, detailing it to perfection could take an hour or more. The most obvious difference could come from the wash, but if you really care about the car (or Terragen 2 in this case) you'll understand the time it takes. This is not to say that Planetside needs to take their time too much... I'm getting really eager to see the final version come out myself...


that has to be one of the best analogies ive seen for "the first 90% of a program is the easiest and fastest to do".  which is very true.  it takes a lot of extra care to get the little things perfect.
Title: Re: Dates
Post by: rcallicotte on June 26, 2008, 03:51:27 pm
Well, okay, this will be my final reply.

I see three types of people here, with varying shades.  But, clearly, there are:

1.  Some who wish TG2 was finished and don't care if it takes forever - their level of confidence doesn't depend on what Planetside actually does to complete it.  These people will keep on praising Planetside and believing iteratively without real evidence that they have reason to trust Planetside to finish this.
2.  Some who would like TG2 to be a completed product - these have been experienced in life and understand it isn't what a person says as much as what they do.  This group is being patient and waiting, but still expressing a valid disappointment from time to time.
3.  A very few have been utterly pissed, emotional because they've spent money for something that has been extremely delayed.  Perhaps their value of money has to do with what little they have or how hard they have worked for it.

I hope to be in the second group and believe, for the most part I am.  No one has consistently stood up as many times as I have saying something about the need to just let Planetside work and how we shouldn't bother them with silly requests.  I've waited patiently and supportingly.  As for my level of trust, it's not blind faith and so I go on what I see.