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General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: on December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm

Poll
Question: Do you believe in aliens?
Option 1: Yes of coarse votes: 9
Option 2: No votes: 5
Option 3: I don't know votes: 4
Title: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: lightning on October 18, 2008, 05:08:38 am
So do you believe in aliens if so WHY? or don't you believe in aliens if so WHY NOT?
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: lightning on October 18, 2008, 05:10:00 am
I believe in aliens because i think the odds are over whelming there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on the earth so there is bound to be life out there some where! 
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: Will on October 18, 2008, 07:38:54 am
Yea I say there is life out there, whether or not its been here is whats in question. As for that I have not seen another evidence from either party to made a decision.
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: rcallicotte on October 18, 2008, 07:54:43 am
It's the argument about humility versus arrogance that made the argument stick for me in favor of believing in "aliens".

The argument - we're one planet in a gigantic galaxay that is a miniscule object in an apparently endless universe that might even be a part of some other natural structure we have yet to understand.  So...since we don't know, the assumption that we could be the only existing creatures in all of this real estate is a leap.  The greater probability is that there are millions of civilizations throughout the universe; but, then we're sort of isolated, which could prove frustrating to dwell on that fact for very long.
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: sjefen on October 18, 2008, 06:45:13 pm
I always end up talking about the universe with discussions like this.
We can all agree that it's big, but if it's just big there must be something behind that again and then something behind that again and forever like that. It can't just end if you know what I mean.
If it is endless..... then how the hell is that possible?

Anyway.... I vote I don't know cause I'm nut sure what to belive. There are many things that say there are life out there, but there are not any solid proof for us...... yet.

These are pretty interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7KeipF-WJU
I think there are 10 episodes.

- Terje
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: Oshyan on October 18, 2008, 08:38:41 pm
I think it would be foolish not to at least believe in a strong likelihood of "alien life". But the simple question "Do you believe in aliens" doesn't cover the real polarization that divides most people. We have come inches from apparently discovering bacteria on other planets even in our own solar system, so it's reasonable to think in the great hugeness of the universe there is at least other *simple* life. Most people are more interested in the question of whether there is *sentient* alien life, and perhaps even more controversially, whether it has visited our planet. In regards to the latter question I personally think not, but I do believe there is likely sentient alien life out there, and I hope I live long enough to find out for sure...

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: cyphyr on October 18, 2008, 10:47:04 pm
I think the issue is not so much one of "do aliens exist" but rather do they exist in a time frame concurrent to us. The universe is very old and will continue for a long time yet. Civilizations will rise and fall, species will come into existence and vanish in the blink of the universe's eye. I'm sure that if we could go to the Restaurant at the End of the Universe and look back we would see a great deal of alien life forms, civilizations and indeed intelligent life. The chances of life occurring in the universe are high but I'm sorry Oshyan, you'd have to out live humanity in order to get a chance of even hearing from it, let alone shaking its tentacle.

There is of course the Drake equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation) follow the link for a detailed explanation.

Considerable disagreement on the values of most of these parameters exists, but the values used by Drake and his colleagues in 1961 were:

    * R* = 10/year (10 stars formed per year, on the average over the life of the galaxy)
    * fp = 0.5 (half of all stars formed will have planets)
    * ne = 2 (stars with planets will have 2 planets capable of supporting life)
    * fl = 1 (100% of these planets will develop life)
    * fi = 0.01 (1% of which will be intelligent life)
    * fc = 0.01 (1% of which will be able to communicate)
    * L = 10,000 years (which will last 10,000 years)

Drake's values give N = 10 × 0.5 × 2 × 1 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10,000 = 10

and a more modern value:

N = 7 × 0.5 × 2 × 0.33 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10000 = 2.31

So umm the odds don't look good, sorry :)

Richard
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: mogn on October 18, 2008, 11:55:57 pm
Why should intelligent life develop on other planets. Evidence shows that it has not happent on a plesant planet Earth. ::)
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: Will on October 19, 2008, 07:56:54 am
Hey! We have digital watches.

Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: red_planet on October 19, 2008, 10:44:23 am
we also have Thursdays !  :(
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: PorcupineFloyd on October 19, 2008, 05:41:01 pm
Sorry, but no.

We have a very limited amount of knowledge about ourselves and our planet, not to mention other solar systems and what they may contain. Yet still - there are quite many parameters that need to fit each other in other to start the process of life with all the evolution, etc. and still we have a matter of scale and time.

And one other thing - our perception is also very limited. Maybe there are some logical entities floating around all the time but we can't "measure" their existance. After all - everything is relative :P
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: rcallicotte on October 19, 2008, 06:07:58 pm
Richard, could I hear this in layman's terms?


Quote from: cyphyr on October 18, 2008, 10:47:04 pm
I think the issue is not so much one of "do aliens exist" but rather do they exist in a time frame concurrent to us. The universe is very old and will continue for a long time yet. Civilizations will rise and fall, species will come into existence and vanish in the blink of the universe's eye. I'm sure that if we could go to the Restaurant at the End of the Universe and look back we would see a great deal of alien life forms, civilizations and indeed intelligent life. The chances of life occurring in the universe are high but I'm sorry Oshyan, you'd have to out live humanity in order to get a chance of even hearing from it, let alone shaking its tentacle.

There is of course the Drake equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation) follow the link for a detailed explanation.

Considerable disagreement on the values of most of these parameters exists, but the values used by Drake and his colleagues in 1961 were:

    * R* = 10/year (10 stars formed per year, on the average over the life of the galaxy)
    * fp = 0.5 (half of all stars formed will have planets)
    * ne = 2 (stars with planets will have 2 planets capable of supporting life)
    * fl = 1 (100% of these planets will develop life)
    * fi = 0.01 (1% of which will be intelligent life)
    * fc = 0.01 (1% of which will be able to communicate)
    * L = 10,000 years (which will last 10,000 years)

Drake's values give N = 10 × 0.5 × 2 × 1 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10,000 = 10

and a more modern value:

N = 7 × 0.5 × 2 × 0.33 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10000 = 2.31

So umm the odds don't look good, sorry :)

Richard
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: Will on October 19, 2008, 06:15:01 pm
He says that using drakes equation wish modern values there is a pretty small chance of intelligent life out there.
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: rcallicotte on October 19, 2008, 11:19:20 pm
Yes, Will.  But, this doesn't explain the equation.

It's just simple arrogance to think we're it.  That's how Galileo was excommunicated by a simplistic set of fools - being self-centric.  The Universe doesn't circle the Earth.

It's meant to sound harsh; arrogance sucks.
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: Cyber-Angel on October 20, 2008, 01:49:59 am
In fact what Galileo did was to follow up on the work published by Nicholas Copernicus in his book De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium  (On The Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) in 1543 in which Nicholas Copernicus attacked the Aristotelian Earth Centered Universe, view held at the time by the Roman Catholic Church.

The Observations made by Galileo confirmed the work of Nicholas Copernicus that the Earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around; however this brought Galileo into conflict with the Roman Church and a Church court was convened to investigate Galileo on the charge of heresy and Galileo was called to Rome to give evidence in his defense; it was while in Rome during this time that Galileo is said to of made is famous remark "These Fools are blind, even with a telescope, they do not believe what their own eyes tell them".

Galileo was forced to recount what he had said as fact and say that his findings where theory alone; with this he was allowed to return home but he was to spend the remander of his life under house arrest.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel                 
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: cyphyr on October 20, 2008, 06:24:45 am
Well for a start I just realised that the Drake equation is referring to the chances of finding life in our Galaxy, not the universe, so actually you got to multiply the answer by the number of galaxies (something like 125 billion at current estimates). So lots of life then, even intelligent life, but still a long way off :)

As far as the equation goes its not that complex at all, they just always look worse when typed out, have a cup of coffee and work through it. Ah sorry just realised I didn't actually write down the equation so here goes:

The number of intelligent communicating civilizations at any given time are as follows.

N (the number) = R (the rate of star formation) x fp (the proportion of which have planets) x ne (of which are capable of supporting life) x fl (which actually develop intelligent life) x fc (which desire or are capable of communication with us) x L (which last long enough to be able to make contact)

An interesting codicil to the last part of the equation L, is that even within our Galaxy with its modest diameter of 100,000 light years, how far has evidence of our civilization traveled? Maybe 100 light years, 150 at very best so there may very well be civilizations popping in and out of existence all the time its just the likelyhood of them popping into existence next to each other at the same time is pretty low :( sorry wish it were different.

Richard
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: rcallicotte on October 20, 2008, 11:43:58 am
Richard, thanks for explaining this equation.  It does makes sense. 

I don't think we know the half of it, but it's interesting to see that someone has thought about this to such an intricate degree.
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: 3DGuy on October 20, 2008, 04:29:54 pm
Just to give you an inkling of how many stars there are in the universe, take a look at this (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=hubble+deep+field&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=5&ct=title#).

I believe there's life out there. Have they been here? I think that chance is very remote, just because of the large numbers (and distances) involved.
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: Matt on October 20, 2008, 05:50:35 pm
With sufficiently advanced technology, the "large distances involved" may become meaningless. But the intelligences that wield such technology would probably have no interest in making themselves known to us.

Matt
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: Will on October 20, 2008, 06:41:10 pm
Well the notice has been posted for regulation time in the central galaxy office. We just haven't had the time to read it.
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: lightning on October 20, 2008, 09:04:29 pm
oh there is no way aliens have visited us thats just a bunch of bull
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: buzzzzz1 on October 21, 2008, 10:18:05 am
Of Course, they cross our border at Mexico everyday.  ;)
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: Mohawk20 on October 21, 2008, 12:51:52 pm
If you look at it from a biblical / religious angle, God might be seen as falling in the category 'alien', and so would the angels...

But that would be it.
Currently there would be a dispute between God and the devil about who has the right to tell us what to do, in which Adam and Eve chose not to do it God's way.
If on another planets, other life forms had chosen the other way, the dispute would have been solved, but since there is still such chaos on earth, according to the Bible because Satan is the ruler of this world (behind the politicians backs). Once we have proven we cannot live peaceful lives without following Gods commands, he will fix the world by eliminating the people that chose against him in the Armageddon. After that, we have a Precedent to follow if the dispute arises again.

So if you believe this, you would also believe God has not yet created other sentient life in the galaxy, and God and the angels would be the only 'Aliens'...
One would still have to vote 'Yes' though.
Title: Re: Do you believe in aliens?
Post by: otakar on October 23, 2008, 12:34:20 pm
Always an interesting discussion. For a lot of people "alien life" means the stereotypical greys crashing their craft at Roswell. While the UFO phenomena is certainly an intriguing discussion topic as well, it should not be confused with the general question of any life outside our planet. I believe it would be very arrogant to outright dismiss this possibility. In fact, if the universe knows no boundary then the chance is extremely good from a scientific standpoint that there is life somewhere else today. But no, you won't be able to get a photo or a video observing that life in all likelihood. Is there INTELLIGENT life out there that mankind may be able to contact someday or have we already been contacted? Now, that would be something! Personally, I doubt it. I am afraid we'll have to do with Star Trek in our lifetimes :) As for the latter part of that last question, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have yet to see any, but there certainly are fabulous tales and theories. But then we drift back into the UFO stuff... Reminds me to schedule that implant removal operation, the thing has been pulsating lately again, started when they announced the cast of the new Star Trek movie.