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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: Kadri on October 19, 2009, 11:56:54 am

Title: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Kadri on October 19, 2009, 11:56:54 am

Edit : I could finish it at last !
(I will post other images on the 2. page on this thread here)



The subject name and picture is not realy exceptional but anyway....

I made this in 1982. Unfortunately i could not find the original.This is a fotocopy.
1-2 weeks earlier i wanted to make a glacier picture. But there was another project here.
Because of this (and that it was harder then i thought  ;D ) i want to make this old picture in TG2.
In the early 90's i made it with  3d studio (not max...dos). İf i can find the avi i will upload it here. But you lose nothing , if i can't find it...realy :)

İf you find this interesting in some way please remind me every once in a while to finish this (But not this 1-3 day please.I am ill right now).
İf i can model the ship (again :( ) the rest is not so hard. But i want to make 2-3 other versions too.

Cheers.

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: littlecannon on October 19, 2009, 02:29:24 pm
You've got me interested. Star wars influence on the ship there?
cheers,
Simon.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 19, 2009, 02:38:12 pm
Quote from: littlecannon on October 19, 2009, 02:29:24 pm

You've got me interested. Star wars influence on the ship there?



Absolutely :)

But at those times and now i don't like copying other people works. But sometimes you can't escape even if you want to...
I was 20 at the times. In those age it's even harder.

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Zairyn Arsyn on October 19, 2009, 02:46:05 pm
i see it too,

the crashed space craft looks like a cross between a Y-wing and a B-wing star fighter imo.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 19, 2009, 03:16:55 pm
Quote from: zaai999 on October 19, 2009, 02:46:05 pm
...the crashed space craft looks like a cross between a Y-wing and a B-wing star fighter imo.


Yes :)

But please look here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val%C3%A9rian_and_Laureline   especially  at the   "  Legacy  " section.

How much original are we? Can you make anything that is realy completely original?
I had influences from comics too.    " L'Ambassadeur Des Ombres "   http://www.noosfere.org/mezieres/pages/val/albums.htm    brings many memories today in my mind. This was before Star wars...1975 i think . İ don't like the caricature side. But there are realy good albums there...

And of course there are other influences from comics, films etc....Maybe i should make a web site ...hmm

Edit: I forget to mention. I draw  comics too. In 1985. Only 3 issues.
       Then i saw that is was better to go to the university here. In your country it may not be the same of course :)

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 25, 2009, 11:54:34 am
Guys I need your help.

Searched the forum but could not find a answer.İf you know it i would realy pleased.

I begun modeling the space ship in Lightwave. I don't like modeling and ı am not very good at it . After a while i thought i should check if there are problems.  There are!

I think this is because of the very near polygons and vertices (to close?) . But what should i do? I have the free v. of TG2 is there a way to do this with this v.?

With "do ray traced shadows" (in the render tab) and without are different problems.

AA is 3 , Detail is 1 the other in order are 3  , 3  ,  8   the two boxes checked.

Looked  here and other topics   :   http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=6943.0

I used Poseray and Povray to control and make the obj. There aren't any textures yet. In Lightwave , Poseray and Povray i don't see this problem.
I otimized the object a bit and the faults are not so much as in the beginning,but they are not gone completely. I wonder if this would be seen with textures?

Please help :)

Not: Should I post this to the other discussion sections?

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: TheBlackHole on October 25, 2009, 03:07:33 pm
Hey, you're doing a LOT better than I could. Anim8or exports as .obj for Terragen, and if I reopen the .obj, I find that Anim8or has wiped out my materials!  >:( And in TG, they render black! ~>:-(
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 25, 2009, 03:18:19 pm
Thanks.
I don't have Lightwave at home and this make things not easy. I am waiting for a solution. I searched for ngons double polygons or vertices. The object is made of  triangles.
Everything seams as it should be ,for me at least. But that doesn't mean much :) Is this my fault or are there some things i should know i am curious.

Edit: TheBlackHole , have you seen the topics with poseray? It can be helpfull for you.

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: TheBlackHole on October 25, 2009, 03:38:41 pm
Quote from: Kadri on October 25, 2009, 03:18:19 pm
Thanks.
I don't have Lightwave at home and this make things not easy. I am waiting for a solution. I searched for ngons double polygons or vertices. The object is made of  triangles.
Everything seams as it should be ,for me at least. But that doesn't mean much :) Is this my fault or are there some things i should know i am curious.

Edit: TheBlackHole , have you seen the topics with poseray? It can be helpfull for you.

Kadri.

I'm pretty sure PoseRay has nothing to do with Anim8or. I found that Anim8or wiped out my materials when I decided to export that model as .3ds for Celestia. I'm going to go flame at the Anim8or forum...
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Henry Blewer on October 25, 2009, 05:49:46 pm
Lightwave defaults to single sided polygons. Check to see that double sided is set as the default.
Another thing I have noticed is that Terragen 2 like triangles for surfaces. If there are quadrangular surfaces in Lightwave, they need to be subdivided into triangular surfaces. There could also be difficulty with surface normal smoothing. If the vertexes of the smooth (rounded) parts are connected to the flat surfaces, the smoothing continues onto the flat areas. This causes render errors sometimes.
Last, here I go again, load the object into Blender. Then export it using my method in the tutorial I uploaded. (Skip the part about modeling, it may or may not help) Terragen 2 likes wavefront obj files. I tried using Lightwave lwo objects, but did not have much success.

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=7840.0

I hope this helps.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 25, 2009, 06:07:24 pm
Quote from: njeneb on October 25, 2009, 05:49:46 pm
Lightwave defaults to single sided polygons. Check to see that double sided is set as the default....


I will change this (i think they are one sided) .

Quote from: njeneb on October 25, 2009, 05:49:46 pm
...Another thing I have noticed is that Terragen 2 like triangles for surfaces. If there are quadrangular surfaces in Lightwave, they need to be subdivided into triangular surfaces...


The surfaces are triangular . But the last  ones.

Quote from: njeneb on October 25, 2009, 05:49:46 pm
...There could also be difficulty with surface normal smoothing. If the vertexes of the smooth (rounded) parts are connected to the flat surfaces,
the smoothing continues onto the flat areas. This causes render errors sometimes....


This may be the problem.If so i am realy in trouble...hmm...Is there a way to fix  this?

I will look in your tutorial . But this time  with more attention . You know what i mean  ;D

Thanks , njeneb :)

Kadri.

Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 26, 2009, 12:59:24 am
I made a new topic here : http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=7862.new;topicseen#new

I have not exhausted every way yet. I see objects without problems here in the forum. I will try other ways and make the ship from scratch and try Njeneb's advices .
So at first i think it is my fault. Will see if it is or not (The realy big problems are mine i think)...

But , TG2 must handle objects realy better than this and more formats would not be bad :) .

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Henry Blewer on October 26, 2009, 08:11:54 am
A decade ago, in Lightwave Magazine, they had a tutorial on building some object. The author recommended that smooth faces and flat faces be separated by using different vertexes, even if they occupy the same space. Since then I have modeled nearly everything this way. It has to do with the way the surface normals iare calculated; the calculation carries across the entire surface when using phong or gourard smooth shading.
In Sculpt Animate 4D, if the surface wrapped at too tight an angle with very small distance between the vertexes, the phong shader would give up. This left holes in the objects. Real 3D had the same issue.
There's the history of blah blah blah. Not much help.
Could you send me the model? I would like to see how it is constructed, maybe something will knock me in the head 'there's the problem'.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 26, 2009, 10:04:24 am
Njeneb , i can guarantee you it is bad constructed  ;D
Like i said, i am not good at modeling . But i made a litlle test with the object that you see here atached .

What worries me is this . I made more tests than you see here. All of them were problematic.

I like TG2. But there are plenty of room to improve. It is a complex software. The first TG2 came out  i tried it and it crashed all the time and i give up on it for a while.
Now  it is very stable and with more options.

The object handling should more or less like in the other 3d aplications. I know that Planetside knows all of the problems and maybe in 1-2 weeks we will many nice additions.
And i am not a man who crys loud at the first opportunity. Like i said most of the problems and even maybe all of them are my fault :)

And i use the free version. The least people i like are the one who complain on free things.
I always write in fear  of misunderstanding . If i say anything i mean it in the constructive point of view ( i try at least ).

Anyway..  :D

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Mandrake on October 26, 2009, 10:16:56 am
That test looks fine to me, if your pondering that chop in the shadow, it's no doubt a tg2 problem and the soft shadow could help clear it up.
But cyphyr gave you the best advice so far, also, make sure all your normals are facing the same direction.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 26, 2009, 10:34:01 am
Mandrake , if you mean soft shadows in the  Sunlight tab (are there others?) i  tried it. Over or under default settings i did not see very better results , but  i had worse ones .

I think Matt has set a optimal setting there.

But i am working on this ...Cyphyr , Njeneb , i will try all other suggestions.

Nothing more to say..I am making the ship now again.

Out for now :)

Cheers.

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Henry Blewer on October 26, 2009, 03:21:02 pm
The terminator shadow can be fixed. Add a second light. Not very strong, less than 1/3 of the primary lights intensity. Turn off shadows of all types for the second light. I read a while ago that someone uses a three point light setup. One for harder lighting and shadows, the others softer for fill lighting.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 26, 2009, 03:25:32 pm
Quote from: njeneb on October 26, 2009, 03:21:02 pm
The terminator shadow can be fixed. Add a second light. Not very strong, less than 1/3 of the primary lights intensity. Turn off shadows of all types for the second light. I read a while ago that someone uses a three point light setup. One for harder lighting and shadows, the others softer for fill lighting.


Njeneb , Do you mean like in the other 3d programs  to station the lights in different places or , one of them in the same place as the primary light?

Kadri.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Henry Blewer on October 26, 2009, 03:31:01 pm
I would try different light locations. The right spots are dependent on how you want to light the model or landscape. I comes down to what looks best to you.
The three point light system is an old trick from before ambient occlusion. In Blender I use three point lighting often. One, off to the cameras side and in front of the primary objects for specular highlights. A second light over head, with out shadows, used for general illumination. The third I place behind the primary objects. This can be used for fill light, or more often casting dramatic shadows in front of the primary objects.
Title: Re: WIP : Old times , new times.
Post by: Kadri on October 26, 2009, 03:32:16 pm
Ok, thanks Njeneb :)

Kadri.

Edit: Old Thread but it is time to finish this WIP!
       Just to be clear for the users in the future about the terminator problem , it is kind of solved for me!
       Please look here:
       
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=12361.15  (DutchDimension's reply and the others)
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Kadri on June 17, 2011, 11:55:13 pm

I don't liked especially the star clusters in the new image i made on the first page here.
It kind of worked on the old one. But i think with color added it looks too crowded.
I think this one is better.


[attachimg=#]


And this is without atmosphere.


[attachimg=#]
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Kadri on June 18, 2011, 05:45:53 am

I had too much time this week!
After completing the first images i tried to make the 2 pages i imagined at those times for fun :)

Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Mandrake on June 18, 2011, 06:09:41 am
I like your story boards!
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Redwolf on June 18, 2011, 10:01:20 am
theres a funny face in the middle of the planet, apart from that your modelling looks cool
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Kadri on June 18, 2011, 09:06:20 pm

Thanks Mandrake !

Redwolf i saw that face too late and tried to get it away in post but that made only change it to another face :)
So i left it as it is.When i buy TG2 i will render it with slightly different settings for sure.
Thanks for you appreciation on the modeling but you really should first see what Mandrake ::) can make ;)
He is really very good! Look for him at www.terragen.org 
For example:  http://www.terragen.org/index.php?topic=4696.525
I only model because i have no other choice . I kinda hate it (to make them myself)!
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Dune on June 19, 2011, 03:21:23 am
I too like your storyboard. Very funny (not to be continued...)  ;D And I agree about modeling; it's fun while it goes well, but once you want something and can't get it right, it's very frustrating.
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Zairyn Arsyn on June 20, 2011, 09:57:28 am
the storyboards look really good Unfinisher Kadri ;)

i really like the detail you've made on the space ship too, :)
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Kadri on June 20, 2011, 10:49:52 am

Thanks guys  :)

I was making a last version (maybe one more with plants?) with big Towers on the Planet and Schmeerlap posted his last tutorial ...
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=12630.0
Doh! It was supposed to be hard to do for me and they look nearly kind of what i wanted.  In addition i kind of run in a weird bug (i think) with my last tgd's  ::)
"Not now John" came directly to my mind...really !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVeS-LEq-Dg
Thanks John  ;D
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: N810 on June 20, 2011, 02:42:03 pm
Reminds me of some of John Berkeys spaceships...
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Kadri on June 21, 2011, 03:56:27 pm

I think i can see what you mean ,N810 !

I like Ralph McQuarrie , Syd Mead , and Cris Foss more.
I don't want to offend John Berkey fans but his work looked always unfinished to me.
The above ones have their own weaknesses too , but i can clearly see what they have in mind.
In John Berkey's paintings i see mostly paint strokes.
Title: Re: Old times , new times - UPDATED
Post by: Kadri on June 22, 2011, 02:29:24 pm

Quote from: Kadri on June 20, 2011, 10:49:52 am
...  In addition i kind of run in a weird bug (i think) with my last tgd's ...


After i saved my last TGD files and then opened them there were many error messages in the opening.
besides this there were double objects grubs, render grubs etc.  Most node links where broken too.
When i tried to connect them they refused to connect ! All input except the one i needed worked  ::)
Only persistent connection attempts to the problematic links worked in the end ! Weird!
When everything looked OK i saved and loaded the TGD ones more to test.
Only to see that all was broken again!

Well it turned out that this is (i think) one of the known bugs!

I had an image file with a space in the middle of the name and one non English character in it (not sure witch one is the real problem ).
I am mostly careful , because i had my own bad experiences in the last 20 years with spaces in names and non English characters in Windows!

But it happens!

So be careful folks if you see such strange behavior.

But it is very easy to correct!
Change the problematic file name . Open the TGD file in a text editor .
Search for the old problematic file name and change it to the new correct file name.
Save the TGD and you are done.

This is with the free v2.2 (build 2.2.23.1) TG2 in Windows 7 64 bit ultimate.
Wonder if the new 2.3 has the same problem?