Recommended Computer Specs?

[RichTwo]

I know this has been brought up before, but I'll ask again since the times they are a-changin'...

The Boss (aka wife) has given me the green light to start looking for a new computer, one that is able to handle the processing requirements of Terragen 2.  Neither one of ours is capable of doing it effectively their both being over 7 years old.  It's the main reason I haven't been doing anything lately with TG2.

I would like to have it in a laptop only for portability, if that is possible.  I am sure it would need to be custom-built, because I doubt the off-the-shelf variety would have what I need.  Or maybe it would? I think all new computers are now 64-bit, so that won't be an issue.  And finding one with a quad-core processor won't be hard to do, either.  I just need to know what other specs will be best.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

[Upon Infinity]

That would mainly depend on the purpose of your renderings.  Are you going for high-end photo-realism?  Are the rendering going to be printed or for screen?  And are you going to use it for animations?

But as a user myself (and a reference point for you), I have a quad-core, 2.8 with 6 gb of RAM.  This does me just fine and my final intent it for my rendering to be printed but no animation.  This was a bit on the low end of the scale (but not the lowest)  when I bought it last year.  The CPU cost me about only $400 CAD.  And it was off the shelf.

So these specs will get you by.  Obviously, anything above and beyond that will just be that much better.  Really, it just comes down to how much you want to spend, how long you want the computer to last before it becomes technically obsolete, and still allow some wiggle room for future Terragen updates, which in turn, will require higher specs.

[choronr]

Been thinking about a Mac Pro desktop for my next machine. Suggest you have a look at their site which also shows the laptops. Better yet, visit their Apple store in your area.

[Oshyan]

A laptop is really non-ideal for rendering as they're not designed for long-term, sustained high CPU usage. However if you get a performance-oriented laptop, and potentially have a laptop cooling stand when necessary, it should work reasonably well. Just consider *strongly* how much you really need the portability as it will essentially cost you about twice as much for a portable system of equivalent performance to a similarly equipped desktop (even more if you go with an Apple laptop).

Apple's laptops are nice, but I wouldn't recommend a wholesale switch to OS X if you're currently a Windows user simply because it will be rather jarring, and any existing software investment you have on the Windows side may be obsolete (though the TG license is usable on both platforms).

I would also recommend purchasing a system ASAP, *before* Windows 8 comes out. You'll have a discount upgrade option to Win8 if you want it, but I don't think it's going to be good for people running apps like TG2. But that's my personal opinion. If you can get a chance to test out Windows 8 before buying and committing to it, that would be best.

Regarding specs, go for an Intel Core i7 CPU and make sure it's truly quad core as there are some mobile i7s that are only dual core, unfortunately. Also get as much RAM as you can. In a laptop it's harder and more expensive to get large amounts of RAM, but it's possible.

Brand-wise, for high performance at a reasonable price, I'd recommend ASUS, possibly Lenovo, Acer. I got a pretty good deal on a quad core ASUS i7 laptop with 10GB of RAM and a 750GB hard drive, about $1200 a little under a year ago. The model was ASUS N53SV-A1 Gaming Laptop, purchased online from www.powernotebooks.com. You should be able to get more for the money now, I would think. A similar model might be worth looking at, though newer options are no doubt available.

- Oshyan

[RichTwo]

My aim is for standard quality images and no animation, so a lower-end to medium performing machine may suit my purposes.  I considered an Apple, but yes the conversion to OS-X would be a chore.  So I'll stick with a good old MS-based system. 

Thanks to all for answering my query.  Now to prepare myself for sticker shock...

[mhall]

They aren't really well known brand name machines, but I picked up two i7 2600 3.4ghz machines with 16GB of RAM and 2TB of internal storage, integrated intel graphics + Windows 7 64 Bit Pro, USB 3.0, etc. for $800/system this past spring. Ordered them from costco.com. They are from a company called ZT Systems on the East Coast of the US. One I left stock, the other I replaced the power supply, added a graphics card and two SSDs to give the system a bit more pep (I do a lot of photo editing on large files and the SSDs help quite a bit). No monitors are included for that price.

The systems have been running flawlessly for the last five months.

Anyway, just a thought.

I wish I could say I had been rendering with them ... but I'm a sidelines Terragen enthusiast. I know what a time sink it would be for me, so I just enjoy what others create.

Regards,
Micheal

[PCook]

I would also recommend purchasing a system ASAP, *before* Windows 8 comes out.

Let me back up Oshyan's statement because Microsoft has a habit of demanding that OEM vendors sell new systems (PC's and laptops) with the most current OS. This means that once Windows 8 hits the market, *authorized* dealers will have to sell machines with Windows 8. You would still be able to, with some vendors, get Win 7 but usually only for existing stock and sometimes with an OS conversion fee. The larger vendors, such as Dell, will allow you to "custom build" an order with Win7, but you need to configure the order yourself as opposed to simply selecting a pre-configured system. In any case, if you are not ready for Windows 8, do as Oshyan suggested and buy soon. Win8 is a radical departure from Win7. But while you can run it in Win7 mode there will still be a learning curve that you may not want to take the time for just yet - perhaps better to spend your time learning Terragen.

On a more general note. Regarding your question as to which PC to buy for Terragen, what I suggest to anyone who is looking to buy a PC is to buy right up to your budget with focus on CPU, RAM, graphics and hard drive, in that order because those aspects of the PC will deliver the most value for your dollar. If you build your own PC from parts you'll save 10% to 50% compared to a prebuilt "turn key" system. For prebuilt systems avoid consumer retail establishments such as Staples, OfficeMax and even Best Buy and never stop into those little indepedant computers shops. In nearly all cases you'll pay higher than on the Internet and will get a system where they cut cost corners such as in the case, cooling and even use cheaper/slower RAM and graphics. Plus it will be hard to find systems that exceed what "normal consumers" usually get, such as 4GB RAM, etc. And they will charge you a stiff premium to add RAM. Also, avoid ebay unless you are a *very* knowledgeable PC buyer. Get your system from a reputable online vendor such as Dell, Gateway, Newegg or even Amazon (because Amazon will intervene if the purchase goes bad).

On a final note, I also agree with Oshyan to avoid a laptop because a) it will not render as fast as a desktop and b) you will pay a premium for portability which you may not need for designing with Terragen and most certaintly won't need for rendering because rendering dominates the PC nearly 100% and can take anywhere from an hour to a day - there is no value in being portable during rendering. You may also risk buring out the laptop because it doesn't have the cooling capacity of a desktop which is needed with a CPU being driven at near max capability. Stick with a desktop that can handle the workload of Terragen, which can be quite heavy during high poly scenes and high resolution rendering. Good luck.

-Pat

[choronr]

Well said Pat ...Rich, take note.

[penboack]

I'll stick my neck out and play dissenter here.
I prefer laptops. They take up less space, use less electricity and you can move them to a different place (such as the coolest room) when they are rendering.
I also don't see huge price performance differences between budget professional workstations, such as the Dell Precision T3600 series and gaming laptops, and I've look at this very carefully.

But if you are going down the laptop route you need to choose carefully.
I would suggest a minimum spec of:
3rd Gen Intel Core i7 (Quad Core NOT Dual Core)
16 GB RAM.
750 GB HD with either express disk cache or a SSD.
NVidia 650m or higher.
Screen size of 17-inch.
Screen resolution of 1920 x 1080 or 1920 x 1200.

Gaming laptops are pretty well suited to CG, they are designed to be used with both the GPU and CPU running flat, rendering in many cases including Terragen only uses the CPU flat out, so wouldn't expect heat to be any more of a problem than with a desktop PC.

Alienware is the market leader and most expensive. Asus provide good models for those on a budget with Toshiba, and recently Samsung (the Samsung NP700G7C http://www.samsung.com/us/computer/laptops/NP700G7C-S01US), providing some great models.

In terms of heat issues, yes a professional workstation using Xeon CPUs will run cooler, but most of Intel's development effort in the last few years has been reducing the power consumption of their CPUs and laptops have benefited from this enormously.

Apple MacBook Pros seem competitively priced compared to Windows 7 gaming laptops. The main difference is that the current MacBook Pros have slightly faster CPUs, and slightly slower GPUs with less (1GB instead of typically 2GB) of video RAM. Resale value of Apple laptops is very high, this is also true of Alienware.

[PCook]

Everything penboack said is true in the spirit supporting a laptop choice over a desktop. And he wisely pointed toward a gamer's laptop which implies higher performance. But it's important to also keep in mind the downsides of a laptop. First is that the cost of portability comes at a premium. It's great that there are gamer class laptops (I have one). But such laptops often cost twice or three times that of a desktop of comparable capability. Portability is expensive.

Next is that upgrading is either not possible or is very expensive. Even upgrading RAM is limited. Service providers have long had a field day charging for unscrewing that one screw to change out laptop RAM, including a significant markup on the new RAM module itself (and the hidden cost of discarding the old module). And, laptops usually have a maximum RAM capacity limit well below a desktop RAM capacity limit. But RAM is about the only hardware performance upgrade one can do with nearly all laptops on the market – so you must purchase a laptop that meets your needs without the safety net of upgrading later. You should even purchase for at least 3 years of predicated needs to maximize your investment. For many people, this forces them to exceed their budget (such as buying a gamer's laptop) or settle for a lower performance laptop.

All agree that portability is a good thing. Even the laptop thief will wholeheartedly agree with this benefit. Point is, a laptop can walk so fast you'll question your mental acuity (and you'll have an epiphany why one must religiously backup personal files *away* from a laptop). If one needs to develop Terragen landscapes at the local Barnes and Noble, then a laptop would more welcomed there than a desktop. Just make sure that the laptop goes with you when you go fetch a research book. And, being single or dual core, your laptop will become not much more than an expensive coffee warmer while rendering a Terragen pic. But that does allow you to get in more reading while you wait.

And lastly, if/when that motherboard fails, you'll lose the entire machine for 4 to 12 weeks while in repair somewhere deep in New York city. A desktop you can have up and running in 3 days if you can replace the motherboard yourself, or 5 days max if hire the local GeekSquad. Ever pickup a laptop by its open LCD screen? A family member of mine tried that on a 3 week old laptop. The repair would have cost more than she paid for the laptop. A $600 laptop from store to landfill in 5 weeks flat. That sort of thing doesn't happen with a desktop unless you hurl the box across the room (which I suppose has happened). Also, when that hard drive fails, and it will in a laptop just as well in a desktop, what is the cost of a replacement for a laptop hard drive compared to a desktop hard drive. I estimate that the laptop hard will cost 2 to 5 times a desktop hard drive of similar capacity. Laptops are expensive to upgrade, repair and replace.

In summary, the benefits of portability, space and power consumption are offset by higher initial cost for comparable desktop capabilities, limited hardware upgrading, higher repair costs, longer repair times, more susceptible to physical damage and high risk of theft. However DO purchase a laptop if the benefit of portability overrides the downsides. And DO buy the most capable laptop you can afford, perhaps right up to your price pain point (avoid debt). Avoid buying a used laptop as if it is a conspiracy to make your life more complicated than it already is.

All of my points above apply to Intel based as well as Apple laptops. In fact, your cost of ownership will be higher with an Apple laptop with, granted, a higher quality product in most cases (higher *quality*, not necessarily higher *performance*). But even with Apple laptops the benefits of portability are offset with the same downsides that apply to Intel based laptops, perhaps more so.

-Pat

[TheBadger]

The only thing I can add to this conversation is that 16GB of ram is not enough for me. 32GB to start, if you have a few extra dollars. And most certainly you should get the best processor you can buy.

[PCook]

16GB of ram is not enough for me

Can you explain why 16GB is not enough for you? High resolution renders, high poly count, what? What *Terragen-related* indications are you getting that suggest you need more than 16GB.
Thanks
-Pat

[RichTwo]

I suppose that when it comes to whatever computer is best, the opinions are like belly-buttons: everybody's got one.

I, too question the need for more than even 10 GB of RAM.  8 would be minimal I'd think but yeah, I'll try for more toward 16 if I can find (and afford) it.  Compared to what I have now, almost anything would be better.  Seven years of use and probably misuse have taken their toll on those old machines of mine.  They can barely - or won't perform the simplest of tasks let alone render a medium-quality image in a less than abysmal timeframe.

I won't be needing an obscene amount of disk memory.  I won't need a high-end graphics card (TG doesn't need it, right?).  And Windows 7 or 8?  My God, the desktop is running on XP, and laptop has Vista.  How more in the Stone Age can I be, anyway?  When Windows 8 comes out, how badly will I need it?  And I'll be buying a brand new MS OfFice suite as well.  As I said: sticker shock.

My reasons for wanting a laptop is (1) it will be for use by my wife and I.  We are not always on a computer - seldom now since we have smart phones. (2) We like the portability: our office / storeroom / wine cellar /  cat sleeping area is all in one room upstairs. We do not wish to be trotting up and down every time we need a computer.  (3) We actually spend evenings and weekends with each other, imagine that.  I do not plan on isolating myself  upstairs in the office for hours on end.  Which is what it would come to with a desktop.  I'll get what I want, but there are compromises.

I all too well know the demands and risks of using a laptop.  I may not be able to prevent everything from happening to it, but I'll do what I can.  A cooling station is definitely in order, I know.  And another bonus: no children live with us.

Again, thanks to all for the suggestions.  I'll be looking at them and will make my decision soon, I hope. 

[PCook]

the desktop is running on XP, and laptop has Vista.  How more in the Stone Age can I be, anyway?

Actually, Windows XP was/is a great OS. It was the best Microsoft had done up to that point and you'll still find many many corporations that will not upgrade their employee's OS away from XP. XP had/has a light footprint, effecient memory use, was business oriented as opposed to consumer oriented (Win7), focused more on function and less on frills, and much more. XP was a great OS era. Vista was Microsoft's attempt to be all things to all people, and it failed. Vista is widely regarded as Windows 7 beta (or a Windows Millenium retry depending on how you look at it). Sady, we moved away from XP primarily because that's what Microsoft wanted. And this want is driven home by requiring new equipment vendors to sell only the latest OS which is Win7 at the moment, soon to be Win8. If vendors don't comply, they lose their license to sell Microsoft OS. Lose that license and new equipment sales will plument because PC hardware is useless without an OS.

Ready or not, Win8 is coming and you *will* eventually be using it on a daily basis. Doesn't matter if Win8 is better or worse, you will have to embrace it eventually (unless you give up this nasty PC habit). You might be able to delay this for up to 3 years, but at the cost of running old hardware while the world speeds ahead. Love Win8, now or later, like it or not.

On the subject of laptop versus desktop. You make a good case for needing a laptop for your personal usuablity and portability reasons. In your case, perhaps a laptop is a better investment. But do keep in mind that all but the most powerful laptops will struggle with Terragen rendering. A render will get done, but it will tie up the laptop for a some time, which means it will be out of your use during the rendering, with the auto power down turned off. If you are willing to let the laptop churn a render overnight, you should be ok. But keep in mind that most laptops are not designed for sustained high CPU cycles (high-end gamer laptops being the exception), which Terragen will demand unless you substantially turn down Terragen's rendering capability. In any case, Terragen rendering will most likely become your sore point with a laptop under a $1500 price, although this may not be as important a consideration compared to the benefits of a laptop in your case. As a solution, you might be able to convince a friend to run Terragen renders with his/her desktop (check with PlanetSide about licensing in this case). You could also farm out a render to a rendering service. You could keep your renders (on your laptop) to a very low resolution as a draft, then hire out the big render when/if you want to print and frame the image. If these alternative *Terragen rendering* solutions are satisfactory, then go get yourself a *good* laptop and enjoy.

-Pat

-Pat

[Oshyan]

When Windows 8 comes out (soon), I think the better question is how much will you *not* want it. We're recommending *avoiding* it here; if it's something that seemed beneficial for your needs, the recommendation would just be to wait the month or two until it's out at retail. Given your updated comments above about what you're currently running, I think *not* getting Win 8 is all the more advisable.

My personal plan with Win8 is to rely on Microsoft's long-term support of Win7, which will last for several more years to come, and see if Win9 brings back a better balance. It's often said that Microsoft's Windows releases go in good/bad cycles, so Win XP was good, Vista bad, Win 7 good, and now Win 8 bad, so maybe Win 9 will be good. Judging by past history that idea of good/bad releases actually does hold somewhat, but it's by no means a rule. As a possible explanation for *why* it might be that way, I think it's also widely felt that Microsoft doesn't always get the "1.0" product right. It takes them a couple tries to get something good, a lot of the time. So it seems they try for major changes on alternate releases (Vista, Win , and then refine those changes on the follow-ups. If Microsoft's attempt at harmonizing the desktop and mobile OSs so forcibly in Win8 ends up failing (which I think is a reasonable possibility), then Win9 might at least bring back the *option* of a traditional Windows desktop. In any case, assuming MS follows-up Win8 as fast as they did Win7, it's reasonable to wait and you will not, in my opinion, be losing anything by doing so as Win7 will remain supported.

As for the laptop option, it does sound like it would fit your needs best. In that case I would definitely recommend a model similar to the ASUS I got, which has held up to frequent (and even long-term) rendering quite well. *However*, it was $1200. So, one additional option you could consider is buying a desktop like the ZT described above (~$800) and then buy a low-to-mid-level laptop (likely dual core, 6-8GB of RAM), use the laptop to design scenes on, then send to the desktop for rendering. You can setup a fairly efficient workflow for this using free render managers, or even simple manual approaches like free remote control apps, e.g. UltraVNC, TeamViewer, etc. The assumption is that full, final rendering, which uses the largest amount of memory, would be relatively infrequent compared to the frequent tweaking and adjusting to the scene that you'd want to do on the portable. So any hassle involved in the desktop rendering process would not have a huge impact. I admit, however, that it's a non-ideal workflow, especially since the laptop speed would affect your overall productivity due to the need for frequent test renders to refine a scene.

Ultimately I think you may just have to spring for a good gaming or "workstation" laptop, just remember that the CPU and RAM are pretty much all that matters for Terragen; with gaming laptops it's easy to end up spending a lot more money just for a good portable graphics card, which you don't need. The ASUS models I mentioned before are a good balance and available at a good price.

- Oshyan