Ownership of knitting patterns :)

[cyphyr]

Planetside has very kindly allowed us (for a small fee) to use their knitting machine. This machine is programmable to make a near infinite variety of jumpers, gloves, hats and scarves etc. I, as a user, can either make up my own knitting pattern from scratch, download one from my local knitting library or buy one from the knitting pattern shop. I can then take apart the patterns, modify them and then produce a new jumper, hat etc. I can also take my pattern to the local library or shop and make it available for others to use, either free or for a small fee.

My philosophical point here is this. The only thing that is "owned" at any point here is the knitting machine. The ability to program it can not be "owned" separately from the machine since that ability is inherent in the machine itself. People can choose to buy or sell knitting patterns but that is purely an agreement between the two parties concerned. If for example I bought a hat pattern and then chose to upload it to a knitting library no crime would have been committed. The pattern is a convenience but can have no intellectual rights associated with it since there is nothing new or different in it from the original patterning ability of the machine.

Hope the above makes sense I'm not trying to get at anyone, and I certainly don't want to have any kind of a "go" at the various knitting shop owners who provide a great and useful service.

Thanks

Richard

[Seth]

hats ? gloves ? knitting ?
i could understand the point if only you were using words as nodes, tgd, or even End User Licensing Agreement... but speaking about fashion dressing stuff... that's pretty weird

[cyphyr]

I'm not wanting to offend or tread on anyone toes ... I'm being allegorical.

Richard

[Seth]

yes i understood... just try this : buy a bag from Louis Vitton, check its pattern and use it to make your own bag. Then, distribue it... we'll see how Louis Vitton will call that attitude
woaaaah i am being allegorical in english !

[cyphyr]

Its not quite as simple as that. In your version of the allegory I would be reproducing an end product, the bag. To break the allegory for a moment the end product in TG is an image or an animation and for the bag, the image or the animation that would be definitely copyright theft and treated accordingly. Back to the allegory, buy a bag from Louis Vitton, check its pattern methodology and use it to make your own original bag. No problem ...

Its the difference between "finished product" and selling a "process". In TG the process of joining nodes together is implicit in the program itself, you can not own it. You can own the images, the animations, the output and although you do of course "own" everything on your computer.

For example who owns this? (below) Me, Planetside, this forum, some other group/person who has put together the nodes in the same way?  I "think" I own it (I give it away) but "if" it were the same pattern as one that you produced would you have a case against me ... I don't think it can be answered that easily.

Richard

[Seth]

I am not a legist, and you may know that I don't give a f*ck about copyright sh*t so far but, when you buy something from NWDA (the only example I know about) you agree with EULA.
And it says :


- Commercial Use:

If you are a business entity, educational institution, government entity or you use this product in a business or for any commercial purpose, your use of the product is defined as "Commercial Use" if you use any material created using the product, whether directly or indirectly, as part of any software, publication, broadcast, film, public display or print shown outside your organisation. For Commercial Use you must purchase a Commercial License for the product from Vendor. A single Commercial License results in one "Licensed Copy" of the Product. The Commerical Use license should be chosen by all businesses, regardless of company size. The Commercial Use license does not grant the right to distribute or resell our products, or modified versions hereof, with cost or for free.



- Private Use :

If you use the Software personally and not for Commercial Use, your use of the product is defined as "Private Use". Private Use customers do not use our products to create and sell derivate products. The Privat Use license does not grant the right to distribute or resell our products, or modified or expanded versions hereof, with cost or for free.



So... well you must better than I do... but when I buy something under condition, I follow my word... or else, I couldn't watch my face in the mirror without thinking "I am a scumbag full of horse' shit"

[RArcher]

I would guess that these questions and problems will continue until there is a protected macro type system in place.

[Seth]

I would guess that these questions and problems will continue until there is a protected macro type system in place.

yes... "been there... done that"
I have this strange feeling of déjà-vu

[cyphyr]

I'm unaware of NWDA's EULA (there's a mouthful) ~ I too follow my word but that's not the point.

I'm still unclear what is being "owned" in the first place. I did buy the NWDA cloud pack (Cumulus_Pack_V2_2) and it contained no such EULA ... still not my point.

I'm still trying to work out how you can own a process, especially one that is implicit in the software I already own. You can sell anything you like. I could sell you the air in this room if either of were that dumb. No crime would have been committed, but I could not tell you what to do with the air since I never owned it in the first place. You don't "own" the connection of nodes.
I don't see how you can. If you can own a certain connection of nodes that precludes me owning that same connection of nodes which is obviously not the case.

Richard

[Seth]

I'm unaware of NWDA's EULA (there's a mouthful) ~ I too follow my word but that's not the point.

I'm still unclear what is being "owned" in the first place. I did buy the NWDA cloud pack (Cumulus_Pack_V2_2) and it contained no such EULA ... still not my point.

I'm still trying to work out how you can own a process, especially one that is implicit in the software I already own. You can sell anything you like. I could sell you the air in this room if either of were that dumb. No crime would have been committed, but I could not tell you what to do with the air since I never owned it in the first place. You don't "own" the connection of nodes.
I don't see how you can. If you can own a certain connection of nodes that precludes me owning that same connection of nodes which is obviously not the case.

Richard

yes... "been there... done that"
I have this strange feeling of déjà-vu

[cyphyr]

Could you please explain to me how you can own a methodology?
Why on earth would you want to have a "protected macro" system? No one else has one...
Please can you also tell me how the canyon posted above could be owned by myself or anyone else for that matter.
Richard

[cyphyr]

If your referring to the "Lightening XFrog" incident then I still think your missing the point.
The circumstances were different, the end product was different, he was selling finished trees, not the process to get the trees (which may have blown his cover earlier).
NWDA is selling preset packs, great and thank you. But NWDA cannot own the intellectual copyright to them (or if they can then the law should be changed). These packs are not "that" complex. We're not talking the level of complexity of even a small program. If I produce a clip file or project file that is similar to an NWDA one then how will you prove that I have infringed your copyright? You cant! Especially since I created the same file independently from ever seeing an NWDA pack.
Richard

[Seth]

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=6497.0


what did I say ? ah yes !!!
been there, done that...
I have this strange feeling of déjà-vu.

[goldfarb]

what you're circling here could be defined as "Derivative Work" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

so in the case of a clip file, you're using a copyrighted work (terragen) to create a "derivative work" (the clip file) that you can copyright and sell etc.

I rarely read EULAs so I don't know if the Terragen EULA even mentions this...I doubt it...

and "Derivative Work" probably doesn't apply exactly but the idea is the same I think....

[matrix2003]

Y'all listen up here.  Stay away from my nodes, ya hear!  And don't goin anywheres near the barn with my daughter.
Round these parts a man can get shot just for peeking at somebody's nodes.  Sheriff Macro's not around.
We got weapons, strong whiskey, and ten acre's for rendering.  Move along and take the lawyer with ya.