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[Oshyan]

We're happy to see non-TG discussion here, after all we made a board for it. But there has been an increasing amount of religious and political discussion, which quite frankly is almost always problematic and tends to cause rifts and emotional reactions. We have no desire to censor our community, but threads like this are increasingly in need of moderation. Please consider whether it might be better to discuss these things elsewhere in a place more suited to the subject. We'd like the focus here to remain on terragen and landscape rendering in general.

Thanks,

Oshyan

[FrankB]

It's especially at risk of causing rifts and getting emotional when people start to become missionary about their point of views and attack the point of view of others.
If we all can refrain from that, we will probably continue to have very interesting discussions that remain not too emotional. I for one like to learn about the point of view of others, even if I don't agree. Just don't get on a mission to convert others to your POV, and we'll be fine, I guess.

Regards,
Frank

[piggy]

May I stress that the one making all the attacks is not me.

As a Christian living in a predominantly muslim country, I am used to those kind of attacks, in the hands of the muslims, every single day.

They can say whatever they want. They can deny anything and everything - and they always do - but that will never take away the fact that they have done a lot of very very, shall I say, things that are "not nice".

They can continue to lie to the world that their religion is a "peaceful" religion, those of us who are being victimized by it know better.

What I said in this thread I based them on facts. Not a single thing was fabricated.

I said them because I need to tell the world what Islam really is.

Many of you in the Western countries do not know the true face of Islam. Whatever you know is whatever you have been told - often by them - and many of you believe that.

I wouldn't want what is happening to us to happen to you in the future.

In our case - like in Malaysia - our fate is sealed. They have become the majority and they get to apply any rule any law they want on us with impunity.

In your case it is different. You guys still have a chance - a chance to deny them their domination of your beloved countries.

For the sake of your children, do not ever give up your country for a lie.

It's especially at risk of causing rifts and getting emotional when people start to become missionary about their point of views and attack the point of view of others.

[cyphyr]

For the sake of your children, do not ever give up your country for a lie.

I know what you mean ...
A certain religion forced itself upon my country two thousand or so years ago, (and is still doing so). During one particularly viscious episode lasting about 100 years over 9 million men, women' and children were put to death in the name of their so called loving God. Nowadays that self same religion is responsible for the continuing persecuaton and intollerance of anyone who dose not conform to their narrow belief system.
I wont name that religion as its dogmas are not that differant to a great many other monotheistic faiths but sufice to say this is my main reason for avoiding all religions and particularly the self elected evangalists of said religions. One point of note, pan-theistic spirituality seems to be more tollerant to other points of view than mono-theistic ones.
Richard

[Kadri]

This is my last post about this topic here.

http://www.ornery.org/essays/2006-08-15-1.html

I want to add one last thing Piggy ! The members who reads here have maybe some point of view of my country .
As i do have about USA or your Country etc. But how true are these?

I have enough problems to see my country as a whole...
Here where i live in the west part there aren't much problems related to religion and other things as in the east part.

As you go from west to east it changes so drastic . Everything . The culture the practice in religion ; politic etc.
In the west there isn't a problem that girls aren't allowed to go to the school . But in the east there is a campaign to urge the families to allow their girls for schooling .
Can you think this in this age?
In the east is still blood feud , despite that it is getting less and less in time. Such a thing like blood feud here in the west is unheard of!
In the west you can find many places to drink and eat in the holy month (Ramazan) .
But in the east there are such places you are out of luck and it is not looked with good eyes!

Most people who do not know our country think mostly about us as the east part ! And when they see our west part they are surprised !

Why do i write this? I think you understand. Do you think that Islam is practiced in the same way here?. NO! There are so much other influences .

Do you know what ; if your people or the other (mostly undereducated) people in the Muslim worlds did believe in zeus or what not , they would be doing nearly the same things still !

[latego]

Sorry dears, Islam is not THE problem, it's ONE of the problems. Let's see...

Islam: head/nose/hand cutting 72 virgins-seekers.
Christianity/Orthodoxy: making that spineless bastard called Nicholas II saint??? supporting a regime which did keep farmers as slaves up to little more than 150 years ago?
Christianity/Catholicism: for more info please refer to Mr. Torquemada. Oh, remember to wear armoured underwear to prevent illegal accesses...
Christianity/Protestantism: for more info and an appropriate amount of rope, refer to Mr. Matthews Hopkins.
Judaism: we are the choosen ones, all the others to the ovens... sorry, this is ANOTHER cult yet... it works almost in the same way, amusing isn't it?
Hinduism: lovers from different castes? let's straiten things... by hanging them.
Buddishm: Pre-1950 Tibet was a place where monastries held farmers as medieval serfs. So much for the four noble truths.
Shintoism: Worshipping almost like gods war criminals rightly hanged for their deeds?

... I could go on.

Religion is THE problem; the only way out for our species would be the TOTAL annihilation of anything even remotely looking like religion and this is not going to happen. One day, in the name of a god which does exists as much as Santa Claus, somebody will unleash a nuclear or biological attack and it will be curtains down for Homo Sapiens. Now you know one answer to the question "why haven't we got evidence from extraterrestrial civilizations?". They did themselves in like we will do.

[schmeerlap]

Religion is THE problem; the only way out for our species would be the TOTAL annihilation of anything even remotely looking like religion

Sorry dear. How can you annihilate a concept, a belief, or any other mental construct come to that?  Human beings with their capacity for mental creativity dream up things like gods, religions, nations, social and political systems, fashion, football etc. It's what we do; it's our modus operandi. So if anything is THE PROBLEM (as you put it) it's the sentient beings who create all this mind stuff including the belief systems called religions. That's right, we are the problem, not the stuff we think up. And you may be right in saying we are going to blow ourselves to kingdom come. But I hope you don't "believe" in continuing Big Bang cycles of expanding and contracting universes 'cos sentient life forms will probably be a part of every one of those future universes and we (sentient creatures) are gonna have to go through this shit all over again, and again, and again ad infinitum.
I only hope that you can learn to laugh before the shit hits the fan. 

with regards
from Life (momentarily expressing itself as John Robertson, among other impermanent forms)

[latego]

But I hope you don't "believe" in continuing Big Bang cycles of expanding and contracting universes 'cos sentient life forms will probably be a part of every one of those future universes and we (sentient creatures) are gonna have to go through this shit all over again, and again, and again ad infinitum.

If Hinduist cosmology is anything near reality (and recent astronomical/physic findings make it uneasingly likelier, see Kadri posts related to the holographic universe)... we are ALL hamsters on a big wheel... running on it until we will find the way to get out, probably following the teachings of a certain indian prince who lived 2500 years ago and who taught a PHILOSOPHY, not a RELIGION.

Bye...

[Seth]

When North Korea will nuke us all, we'll all see in which paradise or hell we'll meet

[schmeerlap]

. . . . .  until we will find the way to get out, probably following the teachings of a certain indian prince who lived 2500 years ago and who taught a PHILOSOPHY, not a RELIGION.

Bye...

As long as you treat what the Buddha taught as a "philosophy" or a "religion" you're still in follower mode running your ass off on that big karmic wheel of life, and getting nowhere. The guy basically gave us an instruction manual. And you may not like this, pal, but he's telling you that you don't really exist. As long as you think you do exist as a separate self (as a "me" apart from "others out there") you're still in a state of ignorance which you haven't snapped out of yet. It gets worse; there aint no permanent universal Big Self (Atman) either like a big welcoming cushion to fall into when you kick the bucket. Life is an ever changing flux of impermanent forms. You don't have to believe that, you're witnessing it first hand 24/7. The only way out for your anthropomorphic hamster is to have it leap off its "big wheel", taking the plunge, lemming like into a truth that doesn't accommodate fools who think they know what they are talking about.

You may be familiar with what is written in the Tao Te Ching: "The Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao".

Perhaps we should all take that hint and call it a day.

[latego]

As long as you treat what the Buddha taught as a "philosophy" or a "religion" you're still in follower mode running your ass off on that big karmic wheel of life, and getting nowhere. The guy basically gave us an instruction manual. And you may not like this, pal, but he's telling you that you don't really exist. As long as you think you do exist as a separate self (as a "me" apart from "others out there") you're still in a state of ignorance which you haven't snapped out of yet. It gets worse; there aint no permanent universal Big Self (Atman) either like a big welcoming cushion to fall into when you kick the bucket. Life is an ever changing flux of impermanent forms. You don't have to believe that, you're witnessing it first hand 24/7. The only way out for your anthropomorphic hamster is to have it leap off its "big wheel", taking the plunge, lemming like into a truth that doesn't accommodate fools who think they know what they are talking about.

You may be familiar with what is written in the Tao Te Ching: "The Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao".

Perhaps we should all take that hint and call it a day.

Dear schmeerlap, you are bulldozing down an open door  ; I myself use the "instruction manual" metaphor.

Just one correction: a philosophy is NOT a religion. A philosophy a logical scheme which can be discussed, analyzed, taken apart and checked. A religion is "it is so because one day I woke up and wrote a book of revelations and if you don't believe accordingly you are a sinner and must be exterminated"-thing. Nothing even remotely like a philosophy.

Last, if anybody wants to see a textbook example of less-is-more, check Zen. Moo...

[schmeerlap]

Just one correction: a philosophy is NOT a religion.

Show me where I said it was. (and you don't have to keep shouting; I'm not deaf). I do actually know the difference between philosophy and religion.
But you are probably aware that philosophy and philosophers can be misrepresented (just as religions can) by opportunistic politicians promoting their own agendas. Nietzsche and several fascist movements, including National Socialism is a case in point.

If you are just a "swinging door" (Shunryu Suzuki), you should have the spiritual maturity to remain detached and not go around berating believers in religion.

If you want to respond further, do so by private message, as I'm quite sure others are getting pissed off with this.

[matrix2003]

Peace and tolerance to all.  I have always been fascinated by the human experience.
Good karma to my terragen buds!

[domdib]

Yes, goodwill to all.

[rcallicotte]

Let them build a mosque somewhere else. 

The issue is that people with Muslim money want the mosque on the same place where their Muslim counterparts murdered US citizens.  That's different - it's a reflection on the Muslim mindset to make people bow to their intimidation that they are really good guys, after all, and it is especially in poor taste for those whose family and friends were murdered by those from that same religion.  That is nonsense.

The main issue of this article is that it is happening in the USA where freedom of religion is right there in our Bill of Rights (the very first one, tied with freedom of speech).  Being bias against a religion by LAW in our country is illegal.  Even if someone who was Muslim came in and did horrible things.