Waves in TG2????

Started by Marcos Silveira, March 16, 2007, 12:44:14 pm

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Dark Fire

Quote from: Will on March 17, 2007, 07:52:22 pm
I kinda of wish I could go off on only a whim and my curosity and see what I could discover but for that I would need some money.

T2TP lets you discover new worlds for free (but you do have to pay for HD-quality worlds).

Quote from: Cyber-Angel on March 17, 2007, 07:39:42 pm
...but that is what discovery (Not the Channel) and a sense of wonder (I never lost mine) will do for you.

There is one other thing required, which not many people have much of: time. I would like more time to find out about things like physics, but unfortunately I have very little time and it is impossible to create more (unless you have enough time to find a flaw in physics that would allow you to create more time)...

xanga433

AHA! That bring up a good idea that I want to try out... there's an incredibly good 3d fluid simulator available called Realflow (not free, but there is a trial version). It's rather good at simulating fluid and gas physics. You can import an object such as terrain and have water realistically interact with it...you could get some good wave shapes from that. You can export the fluid as a mesh into TG2 and apply some shaders to it...

*runs off to play with realfow*


DiscoBall

Quote from: Cyber-Angel on March 17, 2007, 07:39:42 pm
Dark-Fire,

To answer you question no I don't have a degree in physics, but I spend a lot of time reading whats out there on the Internet and then trying to peace it all together. I just happen to love finding relationships in complex phenomena and have come to the conclusion the world in which we live isn't nearly as complex as people seem to think it is.

The way I look at it is this software such Terragen try to model parts of the natural physical world and its many phenomena, conversely then nature has certain immutable laws which we call the laws of physics.

Put it another way cut a slice from an apple, you have a partially whole apple not the complete whole; representing nature on a computer then at the moment with all the fudging, workarounds and so forth is like the apple with the missing slice it isn't the complete picture and therefore not as one would expect.

As computers get more powerful new methods replace the old, if your going to represent nature on a computer then nature has rules that need to be followed just like if people go up against nature and as you know nature wins every time, you cannot escape the fundamental laws of physics and how they interact with one another.

As it stands right now there are two many uncertainties, to many unknowns and areas of grey about various aspects of how nature works, what we know to be true today may not be so in ten or even fifty years form now, but that is what discovery (Not the Channel) and a sense of wonder (I never lost mine) will do for you.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel     


Heh just saying, you COULD represent nature..on a computer..with the current computer software/hardware.
All I'm saying is, its just a matter of your creativity~
(Me = looking at it from a different perspective and case)
You see, 3d art has always been a creative passion for me. I long to make those seemingly mysterious and beautiful art pieces down at the Maxon Cinema 4D gallery. ALWAYS wanted to. Beautiful, modernistic architecture with its definitive simplicity has always appealed to me..and I have always marvelled at it.

When I saw Terragen's (first) gallery, I was simply amazed..I went on to model, but was not able to achieve those results..I did once, but then, I followed a tutorial and got lost..

Well, I saw Terragen TWO's gallery, and I was simply amazingly shocked - those trees on that beautiful on that yet dusty, yet High Definition landscape..
That's why I've always been sticking to it. I was like..drooling when I was waiting for the TG2TP download. :P And thus, by 'some' hard effort, I managed to make some pretty awesome renders...by my standards, that is :P lol

Ok, I kinda..wandered off there...but the main point is 3D art = creativity.
You can simulate nature with your hard efforts, such as the fantastic team at Crysis have done.

But then again, we're talking about computer..software..aren't we...
Software only takes us so far, the rest is our hard work :) ^ ^
So start working hard, TG2 artists! Let's make those scenes we've been so ever striving to make... :)

Oh and Will, the renaissance man still does exist. Sort of.
The only thing is funding, which could easily be obtained if you..have a high paying job :P
Or be friends with Bill Gates who gives you 5 mil for your birthday. Yay.

king_tiger_666

I thought I would drop my two cents in as I have studied advanced wave dynamics.

I suspect cyber-angel you were referring to this as the elliptical motion? where A is in deep water and B is once the wave begins to feel the bottom the wave orbital shape changes to be more of a back-forth motion which is a mechanism for ripple formation.


Also I wouldn't say waves a generated by the wind pressure more as the frictional force imposed by the wind. and is generally described by the fetch distance

As far as equations to explain wave breaking, they are very much conceptual such as stokes wave theory, airy wave theory, solitary wave theory, which all relate to wave height and water depth...
on a simpler level wave breaking can be characterised by a relationship between significant wave height "average height trough to crest" and water depth. wave breaking occurs when H/h=0.3


@Will it has become very specialised, but that's just the beast of coastal systems / science in general.


<a href="www.hobbies.nzaus.co.nz/">My  Terragen Downloads & Gallery</a>

Will

March 18, 2007, 07:29:55 am #19 Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 07:41:30 am by Will
King tiger and your digrams :P It would be intresting to see some plug-in or node that would distort the terrien (water) in such a wat that it creates better peaks that are more physicaly correct while some how preserving Jo and Matts sanity. Think "Terragen 2: Salty+Animation"


Regards,

Will
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

king_tiger_666

do you mean cheats :P :P

diagrams are a good thing:P makes something out of gibberish .....

and will your probably right... having waves based on wave theory maths is unrealistic in terms of terragen... but nevertheless it does help understanding of waves and possible adaptations for terragen....
<a href="www.hobbies.nzaus.co.nz/">My  Terragen Downloads & Gallery</a>

DeathTwister

March 18, 2007, 08:50:20 am #21 Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 09:00:15 am by DeathTwister
I have been trying for 3 days now to remember the name of a software program, a terrain generator that came out , or was out about 8 years ago.  It was a small free program that generated terrain and .GIS data.  It could add multiple layers of clouds like TG2 and had a feature that would allow you to make up to I think 7 waves patterns that did actually create waves.

The premise was that in nature waves had different currents or wind effects, so you could set up the various parameters from different points to set the waves.  Now the waves got hooky when you made them to big, but it did work.  I have been searching for that software which was shareware by the way for days now but it looks like it has vanished and Imay still have it on one of my backup CDs from 8 years ago, but it has been done, maybe not on a level TG2 could do, but someone has done it and we all forgot about it, and I think it was the grandfather of all Terrain programs.  Strange how no one other then I believe "World Construction Set" can make waves.

  However as I said in the post before, I see waves being done all the time using shaders in Vid games, so why can't TG2 do the same with shaders like in Vid games???? is my question???  There is always the cheat to get th job done like in shaders. I am betting in the final version Planet Side will step up to the bar for us, it has in every other way, so let us hope they are working on it and sometime with the final release we get some waves /winks. I Played Guild Wars all day yesterday for a break, and took at least an 2 hours looking at the waves from small to large that they we doing in game, so I can see that there is a way, we just have not seen it yet /smiles......

Ahh and the graphics are great thanks for those brother /smiles....it shows allot And I think if Planetside does not make one that you guys are right, when they open it up for plugins, it should be one of the first ones made, and WOW will they make money whoever makes it.  It got my duckets /winks....Hahaha I know it can be done, I have seen it years ago, and it worked then, not sure where it got lost though??????  OOh well..

DeathTwister
Maylock Aromy DeathTwister Stansbury
ATOMIX Productions

king_tiger_666

March 18, 2007, 09:00:30 am #22 Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 09:02:22 am by king_tiger_666
maybe something like this to look at?
http://www.vterrain.org/Water/

also I see there's a bit on wave modelling to produce perlin noise outputs
one example http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article2001.asp
<a href="www.hobbies.nzaus.co.nz/">My  Terragen Downloads & Gallery</a>

Cyber-Angel

He He,

King-Tiger I was thinking more along the lines of the transition from deep water waves to shallow water waves, as you know wave/ shore interaction is a complex and still not widely understood phenomena, as you know waves break due to the slowing of a wave as it contacts the ocean floor as it approaches the beach.

The decrease in wavelength forces the wave lip upwards up till it reaches a point where it cannot sustain its height where upon the wave lip collapses in an asymmetric pattern due to friction on the sea floor due to the shallow depth and this is seen as the phenomena known as breaking.

Essentially what you have illustrated.

The Text I started my studies into this with (The Earths Dynamic Systems, 5th Edition, W.Kenneth Hamblin, 1989, Macmillan Publish Company) (ISBN: 0-02-349381-X) (Chapter 15: Shoreline Systems).

For the record I cross study in multiple disciplines such as: Physical Oceanography, Physical Hydrology, Wave/ Shore Dynamics etc then cross reference and cross pollinate information from different sources and make decisions based on what I know; I have to consider the audience I am writing for, a general one here on these forums with the occasional more technically read such as you good self, hence some of the more technical aspects are left out, other times it just what I can recall at the time of writing.

If you really want to do the kind of breakers shown in that image, then you'd have to have the automatic creation of the small foam bubbles left behind in the swash zone after a wave has fully retreated.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel    


Will

can you guys imagine a Real Flow plug-in for terragen?!

Regards,

Will
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

Cyber-Angel

I had some more along the lines of what described in the paper (PDF):

http://graphics.stanford.edu/~fedkiw/papers/stanford2004-02.pdf

Or A TG2 implementation of some thing similar thereof.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

king_tiger_666

I would say wave transition is actually quite well understood, I myself have done wave analysis across a surf zone for my Post Grad....

<a href="www.hobbies.nzaus.co.nz/">My  Terragen Downloads & Gallery</a>

Cyber-Angel

 ;D King_Tiger,

I have read enough of whats out there to know that if you take ten people interested in this stuff, you will get ten different answers usually beginning with the words "It is assumed that", perticually where wave/ shore interaction is concerned as you cannot directly see many of the micro-scale processes at work, and therefore it is difficult to gather qualitative, empirical data on much of the underlying micro-scale phenomena in the swash/ backwash zone, data which as you know would be required by the fluid solver if it where to be considered empirically representative of wave/shore phenomena.

You know as well as I that right now that there are still gaps in the knowledge base, grey areas as yet to be investigated and current hypothesis rechecked with as yet to be designed instrumentation (I see grey areas in the knowledge as been that way only due to the fact that as of now no one knows what questions to ask).

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel 

Will

March 18, 2007, 09:54:57 am #28 Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 12:33:33 pm by Will
Not to be a party pooper ( I'm finding this disscusion very intresting) but arn't we trying to figure out of to get Terragen to make these types of wave?

Regards,

Will
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

MeltingIce

This is the closest I've come to making big waves in TG2.  Unfortunately it doesn't have a curl to it though.


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