Detail in Deep Shadows (again)

Started by cyphyr, March 26, 2012, 09:10:22 AM

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Dune

Is it so bad to have quite dark areas in a (fast?) moving sequence? I preferred the second shot as well. Kind of mysterious. You won't have time to take up all details anyway, and usually your attention is focused to contrasting areas.
Maybe lighten up the leaves of the trees just a fraction (luminosity of 0.1) to fake light/dark, blended by a distance shader?

Hetzen

Quote from: Kadri on March 26, 2012, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: Hetzen on March 26, 2012, 06:38:16 PM
You're not going to get much motion blur over 40 seconds. ;)

Why Hetzen? Is not only the time but the speed of the camera important too (from frame to frame)?

Of course I don't know the animation details, I just know that 40 seconds on one shot is a long time, so I assumed the animation would be reasonably slow . And if you have GI problems, it won't really matter what speed the camera is moving, motion blur won't solve the issue.

Vyacheslav

Not standard light.The Plan and sphere.

Cyber-Angel

If that canyon where real then I'd say that the lighting you have would be about right. There would be no way that real sunlight would give full illumination down there, given canyon wall height, and density of the vegetation down there which would absorb, rather than reflect light.

Regards to you.

Cybe-Angel

coremelt

pro compositor weighing in here.  This is the sort of issue you really want to solve in compositing.  Make sure that the details are there in the blacks by taking a render into photoshop and pushing the gamma up and down.  As long as it's not clipped solid black you're good.

Render it out as is and then tweak your RGB curve in After Effects to pull the detail in the blacks up.  You might fiddle with this for days in TG2, it can be solved in 1 hour in comp.

I'd either render 16 bit tiff or EXR and then fix it in comp to get whatever grade look you want.

Matt

Hi Richard,

1) Did you mean "GI blur radius"? A low value like 1 is likely to give problems at bucket boundaries like that. Perhaps you can increase it by a small amount until the border problems are gone.

2) You can eliminate GI flickering with GI cache files in v2.4. Generate a cache on every 20th frame or so (guessing from what you've said about the shot), set the number of files to blend to 4 or 5 and you should be fine.

Matt
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

cyphyr

#21
Thanks guys

Yes I do think this is going to be most easily sorted in post comp. Its a little difficult effectively working blind. Render something and then drop into PS, rinse and repeat with altered settings! One of the settings I altered recently made the last bucket render far too long (I gave up after a day!). I'm changing both terrain, shaders and lights to get the final "look" just right.

Quote from: Vyacheslav on March 28, 2012, 07:50:07 PM
Not standard light.The Plan and sphere.
Can you expand a little on what your doing in these scenes. I don't understand the sphere in scene 3 ... what dose the Strata shader plugged into the opacity channel of its default shader achieve?

Coremelt. Have you had much success in using 16 bit tiff or EXR from TG in animation. I've always found the extra channel "width" ultimately led to more noise, are you using particularly high settings?

Quote from: Matt on March 29, 2012, 05:40:47 AM
Did you mean "GI blur radius"? A low value like 1 is likely to give problems at bucket boundaries like that. Perhaps you can increase it by a small amount until the border problems are gone.

I was using such a small GI blur radius as this was the only way I could get the subtlety of lighting in the "in-shadow" trees. Anything higher and they seem to loose their "round-ness" and look like flat bill boards. I wanted just a little shading to give the trees some shape. Slightly darker within the volume of the tree and beneath it.

Animation wise, yes the 2.4 features will prove invaluable (indeed I doubt the project would be possible with out it!)

Cheers

Richard
www.richardfraservfx.com
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
/|\

Ryzen 9 5950X OC@4Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 4:13)

coremelt

not yet because we're only just doing our first job using TG right now.  I'll let you know what happens when we get to that stage.

Noise in the blacks can also be dealt with in comp pretty easily using a median filter only on low luminance areas or a temporal filter again only on the blacks.  From a compositors point of view, we always love having more color depth whenever we can and we can usually get something useful from it.

Oshyan

I think you ought to be able to get the same/similar/perhaps even better result in shadow detail by increasing GI settings (relative detail most likely). I understand why reducing blur radius helps, but it's clearly impractical to have it below a certain limit. So reduce it until just before you see tile boundaries, then increase relative detail (and try playing with sample quality too perhaps) until you get the detail you want. May not work, but worth trying since you haven't cracked the basic scene lighting setup yet.

All that being said I found the middle image to be most appealing, even though it was darkest and, I gather, not what you want. It seemed much more realistic than the other two, which both seemed artificially lit in the shadows, sort of HDR-esque.

As others have said, I think dealing with this in post is going to be the most expedient and effective option. The trick will be to get the quality high enough to give some info there in the shadows to work with, and to reduce noise as much as possible so when you pull the shadows up, it won't get too grainy.

GI Caching should take care of any flicker, with the right settings. It's not necessarily totally intuitive, but as Matt suggests, rendering cache files every x frames (e.g. 10 or 20) rather than every single frame and then blending lots of frames (e.g. 5) should work. It basically makes sure the GI is averaged over a larger time scale.

- Oshyan

cyphyr

#24
Well here's the latest attempt. I'm getting the colour/tone depth I'm after but the render tomes are too extreme to be a candidate for animating. Population takes over two hours to populate and the frames are taking over 6 hours (err thats 250 days of animating!). I don't really see where I can cut any further corners without seriously compromising quality. And there is a lot of work on scene construction still to go buildings, bridges, hanging vines etc much of which will be casting volumetric shadows which will also add to render time.
The two images below are unprocessed (apart from a linear conversion to 8 bit).
I think, unless someone can come up with a miracle solution, this will have to be consigned to just being a still image.
Thanks for your ideas.
Cheers
Richard
www.richardfraservfx.com
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
/|\

Ryzen 9 5950X OC@4Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 4:13)

Kadri

#25

It is up to your scene and what kind of animation path you use etc. Richard but if it takes so long i would definitely use a fill light setting (i know we said it already) and make use of billboard objects (possibly 4-5 ones grouped together). I would make 3-4 different billboard object grubs (this would bring the population time down to 20 minutes or so maybe) and put them a little on the far side of the animation path. Not neccesery maybe but you could use low quality object  mixed between these billboard object to make them look more 3D like. I doubt that anyone could spot everything in an animation. . You could get away with more then you think.

Not one guy did say why did you use only 1 object in this animation until now! From now on it doesn't count guys :)

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=14208.0

Yes only 1 object.

For example the far side of the canyon you could use (maybe you have) little green colored rough displaced terrain only and nobody would know it .
For animation you have to cut corners. I think you have still the "perfect still image" mentality Richard  ;)

And Richard you know TG2 is not the fastest renderer...


TheBadger

Yeah, don't give up man.

I know that faking things and trying to get away with things are not ideas I had in my head when I bought TG2. But it is a skill that you can use just about every place in 3D, from what I can tell. And no one can take points away from you for cheating. In fact I think the more you can cheat the smarter you are in this field! Wouldn't you guys agree?

I hate having to find work arounds, but we have to sometimes. Keep going, it look like a cool project.

@Kadri,
You implied that you are able to use other renders with TG2. If so, how? I like the look of TG's renderer, I think it one of the best in terms of quality (from what I can see). But if I have other options I would like to know about them.

It has been eaten.

Kadri

Quote from: TheBadger on April 01, 2012, 03:35:43 PM
...
@Kadri,
You implied that you are able to use other renders with TG2. If so, how? I like the look of TG's renderer, I think it one of the best in terms of quality (from what I can see). But if I have other options I would like to know about them.

I think Tg2 is the renderer i like the most .
There are so many more renderer's out there that i will not and can not try all of them and not mentioning that i could buy them too...

Anyway  :)

Tg2 is very good at outdoor scenes . I tried to make one in Lightwave and it was not easy to get the same lighting-feeling.
In TG2 you put a landscape(dem,ter etc) and 1 or 2 objects and voila you can get a decent scene very fast and easy from an lighting stand point at least.
Artistic quality is another beast of course as all we here know.
Maybe this property  is what makes the outside view of some to think that TG2 images are not artistic ones (cg talks dealing ...) .

In the end you have to choose what suits your aproach the best TheBadger.

I will use TG2 and Lightwave together where i can . I like both.
You can put something like AfterFx to this and this  would be all to make most of what you want to do.
But if you are in a deathline and have to make it very fast you have to choose things you normally maybe would not do.
There are guys who would make some matte paintings , put them on Bilboards and would make the scene Richard wants to make more from 2D then 3D with very little 3D parts.
There is no one way or one software approach to say it is right. It is up to you and your workflow.


TheBadger

Thanks Kadri, I agree with everything you said. But I think I should ask my question a different way...
Can I render my TG work in a third party renderer? Not part of it, but all of it as if it were in TG. For example, can I through some king of plugin, use lux or mentalray as if they were the renderer that came with TG2?
It has been eaten.

Kadri

#29

There is a plugin for max somewhere here but i do not know how much it automatic does .
So far i know full scene export and rendering is not possible.
You have to do it manually with some fiddling .
And getting the lightning done like in TG2 is a manual task because all renderers are different.
So to put it is not one button push. You have to know the other app. very good to make the same lighting i guess .
It depends on your scene etc. but i would make some things definitely in  TG2  then in others and comp only over it .
Especially if i can use a renderfarm :)