PTEXed me

[TheBadger]

Hello,

I finally took my tail out from between my legs and started learning 3D. And you know what? Its just the huge fraggen confusing mess that I thought it would be. But I like it! And I'm starting to get to grips with everything. One thing I am absolutely sure of... UV un-mapping suxxxxxxx! SO? Well thats what this post is about, or to be specific, PTEX support.

So there is this thing called PTEX painting. What is it you ask? Well I'll tell you. PTEX is this really cool way of never having to crack your head open, while bashing your head against a computer terminal when you realize you made a great looking model with bad bones. Or to put it another way, PTEX means no more UV-unrapping!

Hows it work you ask? I have no idea, and I don't care. All I know is that it works! Just not with terragen 2, yet ... Well not with a lot of other programs either, but I don't use those programs to render anyway.

So why should Terragen 2 support PTEX models? Thats a great question and I'm really glad I asked it. Thanks. Your welcome.

Terragen 2 should support PTEX because Terragen 2 has a beautiful renderer. The renderer in TG2 is, simply put, out standing. Even before I really knew what I was doing with TG2, I was getting great looking renders! And I bet so were most of you? And, as I get better at modeling and sculpting Im going to want those models and sculpts to have proper color and texture. And then I am going to want to render them in a scene. Crazy I know


Well, I want to keep modeling and I want to keep rendering. But unless someone knows of a better way than TG2 with PTEX... Im sure listening! And please don't tell me about sucking it up and doing it the hard way, because thats just stupid.

Is it better to crawl or fly?

[Oshyan]

I'm not sure how much work it would be to add PTEX support but it's definitely something that caught my interest when it first came out and it seems very promising. That being said, support for it seems somewhat limited at this time, at least according to what little info I can find on what apps support it (mostly renderers). Our choice to implement it must necessarily depend on demand and that is of course related to its overall use in the industry. I do like the general approach of PTEX from what I know of it, and as support for it grows in other apps that TG works with, it will make more and more sense to add. I'll open a feature request in our issue tracker to keep it in our minds.

- Oshyan

[rcallicotte]

PTEX for TG2?  Really?  Interesting.  Don't know what to make of this.

[cyphyr]

I don't know about PTEX but it sounds interesting.

UV mapping is not so hard really, you just have to do it at the right time. For example to uv map a tree trunk; in your modelling app of choice, create a long cylinder at 0,0,0, to approximate scale,  uv map that with with your bark texture (cylindrical projection in y axis) and only then start to morph and distort it to the shape of a realistic looking tree trunk. Trying to do it the other way round, mapping an already distorted cylinder would be a nightmare. The same goes for everything else, do your mapping at the earliest stage you can, you can always tweak later.

Cheers

Richard

[rcallicotte]

Good advice.  I like using zBrush's Master UV.   

I don't know about PTEX but it sounds interesting.

UV mapping is not so hard really, you just have to do it at the right time. For example to uv map a tree trunk; in your modelling app of choice, create a long cylinder at 0,0,0, to approximate scale,  uv map that with with your bark texture (cylindrical projection in y axis) and only then start to morph and distort it to the shape of a realistic looking tree trunk. Trying to do it the other way round, mapping an already distorted cylinder would be a nightmare. The same goes for everything else, do your mapping at the earliest stage you can, you can always tweak later.

Cheers

Richard

[Zairyn Arsyn]

i remember mentioning PTEX to Oshyan at that NWDA chat event from last fall, that was when i first heard about it, when i started using Mudbox.

I don't know about PTEX but it sounds interesting.

UV mapping is not so hard really, you just have to do it at the right time. For example to uv map a tree trunk; in your modelling app of choice, create a long cylinder at 0,0,0, to approximate scale,  uv map that with with your bark texture (cylindrical projection in y axis) and only then start to morph and distort it to the shape of a realistic looking tree trunk. Trying to do it the other way round, mapping an already distorted cylinder would be a nightmare. The same goes for everything else, do your mapping at the earliest stage you can, you can always tweak later.

Cheers

Richard

i think the difficulty of the UV mapping depends on the object your working with and what sort of applications you have available to you.

[airflamesred]

I have a feeling this will be the future with the level of detail that's apparently possible. I'd be interested to see what the file size is like in comparison. The examples atm seem to be kinda low res.
If you have the right tools then Uvs are a minor inconveniance its just the resulting jpeg thats the issue. I'd be interested to see how this works, at a computing level.
Thumbs up from me

[bobbystahr]

It's an AutoDesk product  so shouldn't you be able to get an .obj out of it...the ones I've run into from at least the modern  3dmax work well in TG2
'EDIT'
ooops that's mudbox...it's a Disney creation....

[TheBadger]

Thanks everyone. If you guys learn any more about this please share!
I have not yet given my self to a product or workflow, so Im open to ideas. I sure do like what I know about PTEX though. Unlimited detail, and no mapping issues!

Oshyan,
What is involved in getting terragen 2 ready to accept new file formats? If its an easy thing, wouldn't you want TG2 to work with everything people use, every file type? Or do you need permission to allow TG2 to read it? Just curious about it.

My only hold up on getting to know PTEX is that I want to render in TG2.

About file (objects) size out of mudbox and Zbrush:
Hey guys, can you please tell me how you go about reducing file size, in order to get a sculpt into TG2.

[Oshyan]

It's not trivial to support new file formats, especially ones that try to do something differently than other systems (which PTEX does, to some degree). The PTEX project does provide development support systems (API and documentation), so that helps. But it still takes notable development time and effort to support any new formats, which is why we have to make careful decisions about what we choose to spend time supporting.

A good example might be .3DS format, an old 3D Studio model format. Many simple models are widely available in this format, but it is old and has some significant limitations and so it is not generally used for newer models anymore. OBJ is similarly old, but is more broadly supported and capable, and is still commonly used, hence our support of it. Any application that supports 3DS should support OBJ and can thus convert to a format TG2 can read.

Our focus in supporting a data format must necessarily be driven by multiple practical considerations, including support in other (especially related) applications, demand from our users, time and cost to implement and support, long-term support outlook (will people be using this format in 3 or 4 years?), etc.

- Oshyan

[TheBadger]

Thanks Oshyan, thats a good answer from you as usual. Hope planetside gets the data it needs to make the right choice.

For everyone else who is interested in this subject; here is a link to the mudbox documentation/help that should give more understanding of TPEX, at least from mudboxs' perspective:

http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/mudbox2013/en_us/index.html

click on painting (left column), then click on "PTEX painting" near the bottom of the list.
Sorry, couldn't give a direct link for some reason.

If you guys take a look at the overview, you will see this

"Once your mesh is set up for PTEX painting (Prepare a model for PTEX painting), creating a new paint layer automatically creates a PTEX paint layer. For an entirely UV-free pipeline, you can export your high-quality textures as PTEX files, or if your pipeline requires UVs, bake your textures to UV space (once UVs have been created) and export them as image files. (See Save or export paint layers.) When you save a PTEX file, mesh data is also saved by default, letting you easily inspect your PTEX textures in other applications."

Does this solve the problem? OR create new ones? I'v never baked anything.

[bobbystahr]

Here's a thought...texture up something and bake it...save/export it as an .obj...try and load in TG2...let us know what happens....we're quite curious here....but you're as already playin with it  you got lead time....

[Dune]

Interesting thread, so I'll follow. Modeling is quite new to me, so every bit of info is sucked up eagerly.

[TheBadger]

@bobbystahr

Point taken. However, after looking for a while, I could only find one poorly constructed sentence on the internet on how to bake in MudBox. So no go yet, sorry. But I will keep at this, and I will share what ever I learn.

In the mean time I did find this...

Pixar did a special guest technology presentation at Siggraph showing off their PTEX technology working inside Autodesk Mudbox. Amazing technology that everyone is scrambling for.

Its 30 min long. But what should really interest everyone is the huge increase in render speed as a result of using PTEX (or at least thats what I got from it.) The renderer used in the video is Renderman. But I would guess that some of the info is good for us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNgy2CYEvfI

If anyone can break this info down as it may relate to TG2, I would be glad to hear it.

P.S.
I forgot to mention that the video shows a PTEX and baked UV comparison nearer the end of the video.

P.S.S
Hey cyphyr! Thanks for what you wrote. I had thought about that, but figured if it were true I would have read it every place. Well I tried it like you said and your right! I would of thought that information would be in every tut. But nope. So thank you! Still, No UVs is what I'm after.

[j meyer]

...
About file (objects) size out of mudbox and Zbrush:
Hey guys, can you please tell me how you go about reducing file size, in order to get a sculpt into TG2.

From my point of view it depends on the kind of model and purpose.Some times you can
export a multi million poly mesh and use it like it is,on other occasions retopo and/or
polycount reduction might be required.One thing to keep in mind is that ZBrush does
not export normals with it's .objs,which keeps the filesize lower anyway.
Can't say anything about mudbox.