'Dark Knight Rises'

Started by matrix2003, July 20, 2012, 04:38:35 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

Seth

TheBadger was talking about Nietzsche's nihilism.
And if you adopt Nietzsche explaination of nihilism and apply it on European youth, I must say he's right.
So you can be atheist and still have values or morale.

That said, TheBadger, I don't think it is right to compare 2 states of the USA and France and Germany.
We don't speak the same language. We don't have the same religion. We don't share the same ideas on politics, education's system, etc...
Not mentioning the three wars we've been through together.

Do not make the mistake to think the EU is like USA. EU is a pack of countries united economically and partially politically by their leaders.
That said, we are truely separate countries and I know a majority of people that won't say "we feel european". You should know that french people voted "no" to Europe and that our leader did it nonethless and you will understand that we are definitely not like the american people. We do not have the feeling that Europe is ours and that we shoud defend it, etc...
So much for patriotism !
That should explain to you why every patriotism, nationalism or any kind of "love your country" feeling is not very well accepted in part of Europe.
Ask Frank how he would react to 10 guys singing german anthem ;)

Considering the death caused by gunshot, USA statistics prove that USA have a ratio of eight times what economically and politically similar countries have. Incredible !
There is truely a huge guns' problem in USA. As they have huge problem with drugs, poverty and violence.
I didn't find the statistics about the owners of the killings : I don't know if the majority of murders with guns were perfomed with legal or illegal weapons, but I seriously doubt criminal usually use legal guns ;)
Therefore I am not sure that to forbid guns is the solution. The problem is education, mental health, and a part of the medias, showing gangstars and crazy dumb serialkillers as heroes.
It is not because of the media itself (like for the gun) but a problem of parenting. Even if I do love serial-killers movies, I won't allow my kids for example to watch some crazy violent movie just because it is THE movie you have to see to be like everybody in school. Same for games.

I used guns and rifles often the last 10 years and I think it is a really nice sport and I found it very close to my past martial arts experience.
If guns would be allowed more easily in France, I would buy one (well more than one considering that my wife is a better shooter than I am). For collection, for sport and for protection.

I know that saying : it is not the gun that killed people but the guy who had it in his hand, is sometimes a bad and overused argument. But come on guys, we didn't forbid knives ! And how many people died by stabbing through past decades ? through past centuries.... ? And I can even buy an axe, a sword, or even a chainsaw in every tools shop !
More people die because of salt in food than because of guns (at least in France). And still, we put salt everywhere. Advertise for it. Give it to kids in school...
Would you find it normal to forbid salt because people don't use it as it is supposed to be used ?

I understand the humanist kind of thinking about the fact that humans don't need weapons to protect themselves because the gvt should be the only one to protect you.
But I am not into it.
And considering evolution of politics, all around the world, I think that we should all be armed.

I wanted to stay out of this thread because of its dangerous and slippery potential. But you guys made your points politely, but firmly. So I couldn't resist to post.

cyphyr

July 23, 2012, 07:14:41 pm #31 Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 07:20:01 pm by cyphyr
Maybe the issue here is the word "banning" and I would have to agree that a TOTAL blanket ban would be impractical and ultimately unworkable, however as the suspect in the theatre shootings was completely legal in his ownership of his guns (an AR-15 assault rifle, a Remington 870 12-gauge shot gun and a .40 calibre Glock handgun + 6000 rounds of ammo!) shouldn't there at very least be much tougher gun control laws. Interestingly he would not have been able to buy the assault rifle in many other US states.
:)
Richard
www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
/|\

Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
i7 5930K @3.5Ghz, 32Gb (TG4 benchmark 13.44)

TheBadger

July 23, 2012, 09:06:10 pm #32 Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 09:12:41 pm by TheBadger
Seth,

Sorry, I ment only to create a visual understanding of the boarders between the two states, and draw a comparison between size and distance. I did not mean to suggest that the people or cultures are the same. I regret my bad example in this debate. However, with clarification perhaps it works as an example a little better now? I'll try harder next time.  :)

We are right about Nihilism, there is a lot of writing on this.
You sound like you read a lot, including things that you disagree with. Please consider reading "My life Among the Death Works" http://www.amazon.com/Life-Among-Deathworks-Illustrations-Aesthetics/dp/0813925169 it is about Art, and Truth and lies. I think you will dig it. Also "For the love of beauty" http://www.amazon.com/For-Love-Beauty-Foundations-Aesthetic/dp/0765803011 I know the writer of this one. You may not agree with what it says, but I think you will like the discussion. On France and the EU, I am sure you know I sympathize with you.
On your statements about violence in America, I totally agree with you, it is a real problem as I said several times in this tread, we have a problem with nihilism here too. I never denied that. I just reject the taking away of my rights to deal with someone else's evil and insanity.

FrankB and T-U,
Your statements about what I wrote show you did not understand what I said. Is that my fault or yours?

T-U,
You where condescending and insulting from the top of this thread to the bottom. Its clear that hurling insults is the same as making an argument to you. "cognitive dissociation" is what you wrote in your first use of the term, I do not need it explained to me. I understood you the first time. As to the post by me that your referring to, did you not see all of the commas? It was a listing all the insults you used as arguments. It is a little funny that you now sound offended by what I wrote.
I am not looking forward to your next set of insults, I doubt I will respond. You probably think that because no one else is debating you that they must therefore agree with you.

Richard, your english is better than Seth's but he understood what I was saying better. So what am I to make of this? Did I not express what I was trying to say very well, or what?

I guess I didn't quit.
It has been eaten.

Seth

Look at Switzerland. Loads is weapons in all house of the country. No guns violence. Again, the gun is not the problem. People is.

Tangled-Universe

July 24, 2012, 03:55:38 am #34 Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 03:58:02 am by Tangled-Universe
Hmmm...well...never mind then.
If you can't see or understand the difference between actually being insulted or feel insulted by someone's completely different opinion and way of thinking then there are no viable conditions for a good debate.

I'm sorry you feel that way and I hope you understand, again, that it is not my intention as I explained before.

I've noticed in your very long reply that you don't quote paragraphs or sentences, but just tiny sections of what I and others say.
By that you isolate it from its context and give it a completely other meaning, most of the times making me/the others look ridiculous, but mostly you focus on that tiny specific thing and not the "bigger picture" I/the others are trying to explain.
However, I don't feel that way and understand why and how.

It's this combination why I'm out of this discussion.
I'm perfectly fine if you consider this as a win, sometimes you've to let go and this is what I'm doing now :)

Cheers!

FrankB

Quote from: Seth on July 23, 2012, 06:21:35 pm
So you can be atheist and still have values or morale.


That is exactly my point. I made the point because I have interpreted Michaels post in a way that he would assume that not believing in god would lead to a total loss of values. Perhaps that was a misinterpretation on my part.


rcallicotte

July 24, 2012, 07:05:18 am #36 Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 11:41:29 am by calico
This is it. And the U.S. seems to be extreme on so many things-


  • Some believe it is a sin to drink one sip of beer and still call for prohibition, while others nearly kill themselves with alcohol poisoning because they drank too much.

  • Commercials with nudity are banned, while some of the grossest and most heinous porn videos come out of the U.S.

  • Some people cry "prejudice" about any slight misunderstanding, while others still bar blacks and Mexicans from their establishments (here in the U.S.A.!).

  • Some people are giving away much of their lives to help others, while many bankers here in the U.S. seem to always look for some way to steal from the poor to make the rich richer.



It's this extremism that is nutty.



Quote from: Seth on July 24, 2012, 03:52:00 am
Look at Switzerland. Loads is weapons in all house of the country. No guns violence. Again, the gun is not the problem. People is.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

TheBadger

Martin,
I did not mean that you should shut up because I disagree with you.
I reread what I wrote and I see that I tried to be funny/clever when I should have just said what I meant.

That is, I was angered by you saying that americans don't see things the way that you do because we are "brainwashed". You said or implied in a few places, that americans who defend or believe in the right to Self-defense, of which having the choice to own a fire arm is a necessity, are stupid.

So your arguments read to me like this: "Americans are stupid because they don't ban guns. Therefore, Americans are stupid."

You also made points I thought were good, but it was hard for me to focus on them when they were prefaced and followed with negative ad hominem attacks. The discussion was sour from the start for me, so for may part it ended sour. Its still hard for me to believe that you don't see it.

I do not think I won the argument, I don't think it can be won at all. Winning was not the reason I joined the discussion. I am sorry that it went this way.


FrankB,
I think I did a bad job at constructing my statements. For one, I should have made the assumptions I was basing my statements on more clear. I have to admit that I was a little lazy. After some sleep I think some of the misunderstandings are mostly my fault.

Of course an atheist can have morals and values! No doubt about it! And of course a father is a good father if does not own a gun! I am embarrassed that something I said could have left the impression that I thought otherwise.

Please allow me to clarify to you what I meant.

I was trying to talk about the future consequences of post modernism in contemporary Europe, and the danger of disarming the public at large.
I was not making a statement about religion. Obviously a man can be an atheist and is likely to have values and morals and a complex believe system. Likewise a man can believe in God and have no religion, or have religion and no morals and not even believe in a god.

I have already said that, thanks to the modernist and post-moderenst explanation of reality, that a religious person can become a nihilist. This is because it is not necessary for someone to believe in reason or justice or purpose or even a God or gods to be religious.
Please note that when I say "God" I am talking about beliefs in western civilization as we now know it. And so the assumption must be that Any reference to God implies, also, a necessary belief in a reason for being.  But this is not to say an atheist cannot believe in a *reason* for existence.
Finally, to be clear, when I say God I am not talking about natural processes for the development of life on earth (the *how*), but the metaphysical question of *why*.

So my meaning was not that an atheist must become a nihilist. Rather it was that an atheist, if he lacks a reason for being, is more likely to become a nihilist, even, that he must become a nihilist. This is because the nihilist must necessarily believe that there is no purpose for existence. It is not that an atheist does not have morals, it is that it is impossible for a nihilist to have them. On the other hand, it is impossible for someone who truly believes in God to become a nihilist without first abandoning his belief in God, because his belief in God necessarily requires a belief in reason and purpose and also justice.
But yes, a man who believes in a god can also do injustice as history has shown us. So you see I was not saying that atheists are worse people than people who believe in a god.

Nihilism does not make a man fearless, so like a narcissist, the nihilist through inward logic and rationalization (or mental disorder) must also become sociopathic, if he is already not so. Once this happens people die.

What I was talking about in that other post was that, the more nihilists in europe there are, the more likely that it is one will come to power, again. And that the more atheism there is, the more Nihilism there will be.

So having already voluntarily disarmed yourselves, and with the looming possibility of economic collapse of the EU, and the economic depression that would follow. not forgetting the constant threat of world war3 in the middle east, namely Iran, Syria, and Israel, and the related issues. 

So I stand by my statement that disarming your selves (especially so completely) is more than a little crazy. Particularly given the lessons of WW2.
At the very least The EU should have waited a good while longer to disarm to see if all this "Sane Society" stuff was going to work out for the long run. Because given Europe's very long, very bloody history, in combination with mans animal nature, I'm not holding my breath.

Everyone,
Whatever role I had in creating a negative environment for discussion, I apologize. But still I stand on my principals. We will not disarm.

Hope everything will be fine between us.












It has been eaten.

Tangled-Universe

July 25, 2012, 04:10:08 am #38 Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 04:17:14 am by Tangled-Universe
Quote
That is, I was angered by you saying that americans don't see things the way that you do because we are "brainwashed". You said or implied in a few places, that americans who defend or believe in the right to Self-defense, of which having the choice to own a fire arm is a necessity, are stupid.

So your arguments read to me like this: "Americans are stupid because they don't ban guns. Therefore, Americans are stupid."


The brainwashed part can be deduced from me saying "spoonfed", so yes, correct.
However, "Americans are stupid because they don't ban guns. Therefore, Americans are stupid." is incorrect inductive reasoning.
I have never said that, nor implicated anywhere. It's not the way I think either.

I wasn't very sure what to think about the part where you explained that our disagreement is fine because we aren't neighbours or fellow Americans. What if I am your neighbour?
I don't mind disagreeing, but the very selective cutting from quotes destroying its context, misreading or drawing incorrect conclusions and especially the feeling we're both talking to a wall, made me think it's better to just move on.


Seth

damn, not available in France.

cyphyr

www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
/|\

Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
i7 5930K @3.5Ghz, 32Gb (TG4 benchmark 13.44)

rcallicotte

@Seth and @Cyphyr -

Basically, a young man who was in the audience when it happened is saying it is better to forgive this man and move on - life is better than this.  He's young, but I think he's right.

Of course, if it was my family murdered by this man, it would be important to forgive and still he needs to get what's coming.  But, maybe that means therapy.  Still...he's probably going to cross the "Jordan" someday sooner than later.  I can't believe our society will allow him to live.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

TheBadger

It has been eaten.

rcallicotte

And to participate in what the title was about, I saw it today, after re-watching the 2nd one.  I recommend this movie to anyone who has seen the first two.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?