Nevron Motion from NewTek

Started by PabloMack, August 19, 2013, 02:47:22 pm

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PabloMack

August 19, 2013, 02:47:22 pm Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 10:48:26 am by PabloMack
Apparently this MoCap option was announced last month. What I gather is that LW 11.6 has support for Nevron which works with the Microsoft Kinect Camera (cost about $200). Nevron itself is a $299 option. Together they can import Motion Caption information collected by Kinect for Windows. It apparently doesn't work in Mac's Virtual Machine for Windows. This comes at a time when I am looking into MoCap for my own project work. With Nevron I won't have to buy an XBox, PlayStation or other game console but it comes at its own price.

https://www.lightwave3d.com/nevronmotion/

TheBadger

August 19, 2013, 11:44:16 pm #1 Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 11:46:20 pm by TheBadger
Did you see the post I made on this subject? You should not need an xbox for any of the solutions, in order to use the Kinect.
But whats important in the capture devise is the FPS. The Kinect is not your best option in that regard.

The software here looks good though from what I can see. Let us know if you get this Pablo. I know I cant use it on a mac, but what you find will help me to know what is "normal" for software like this in this price range... Quality I mean.
It has been eaten.

PabloMack

Quote from: TheBadger on August 19, 2013, 11:44:16 pmDid you see the post I made on this subject? ...But whats important in the capture devise is the FPS. The Kinect is not your best option in that regard.


Quote from: TheBadger on August 06, 2013, 09:20:43 pm
I read about this: http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Xtion_PRO_LIVE/
The difference is mainly 60fps VS. 30fps on the kinect. I read that the fps is what makes the best results. My question is, is 60fps enough to do high quality (even photo real) movement?


I found your post on the subject and I will give my take even though I don't (yet) have hands-on experience. A MoCap key frame rate greater than your video frame rate won't do you any good (excess is wasted). I have the impression that jitter is often a problem with MoCap solutions and that is not caused by too low a frame rate but lack of spacial resolution. The noise is worst when the MoCap creates a key frame for every video frame and the accuracy is too low (i.e. noise being high). Noise filtering may be the answer but since animation software smooths out motion between key frames I am not convinced that a high frame rate is important for MoCap key framing (or natural motion for that matter). For a 60Hz video frame rate, what do you think a minimal MoCap key frame rate would be? Of course it depends on what you are doing but, for most casual motion, I would think that 10~15 KFPS should be more than enough. Only when you have fast jerky motion would your key frame rate need to approach or meet your video frame rate. The default video frame rate in Lightwave is 30FPS and I haven't yet seen the need to go beyond that. The die hard cinematic people seem to think that 24FPS is somehow better. A MoCap key frame rate of faster than 24 would do no good for those people. You can't see motion that there isn't a video frame there for anywho.

What I do have some experience with is using SynthEyes for motion tracking. The jitter was the worst when I key framed motion to every video frame and the noise approached or surpassed a pixel in size. It is recommended to keep noise below about 0.25 pixels. Higher key frame rates are only to keep motion from getting too far off the interpolation curve.

TheBadger

Good info!!!

Ok, so lets be clear...

So your saying that the motion capture should be equal to the animation output, is that right? So for example, the output of a project will be 30 fps, and therefore the capture should be 30fps. Yes?

But if so, I don't understand something.
The motion translated to the object will be whatever the motion data records, right? So then its when you hit preview play back you see all the frames or only the number you choose, right? Then you hit render and you get what you told it to give you, right? But the data is there. Its just you selected to not show it. Or are you saying that somehow the data is lost along the line, and you cant really show it?

24Fps is a film standard. I'm not a fan. The blur is terrible, but people say the motion is more life like. I don't think it is really. Its cheaper to make though because there is less film. In animation obviously less render time.

The new Xbox out this winter will play games at 60FPS. So IF the above statements are correct than that would be relevant.

I have only ever captured video or made animation at 30FPS so far. But with animation, only because of render time. Also there is the play back issue and media hardware. But that will be changing soon I guess.

Pablo, where can I read more about the rest of the things you brought up? I need to know everything I need to know, you know.

I am interested in photo real motion (with respect to the 24-48-60FRS arguments). Also, What sources do you have to clarify the point about FPS second being wasted data? When I said what I said about the higher frame rate, that was because thats what the manufacturer claimed. Not because I know it my self.

Also, what do you think of that other software from the other thread? I need a little guidance on these topics. Theres not a ton of info out there right now, or at least not that I have found yet. Im just getting into this, but I know its something I need.

Cheers.

P.S.
Im super super tired right now as I write this. If I asked a question that you already answered and I missed it. Forgive that and just point it out.
It has been eaten.

PabloMack

August 22, 2013, 10:25:39 am #4 Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 11:46:09 am by PabloMack
Badger, I don't think that you need extra reading resources to understand this issue. You just need to fully understand principles you most likely and should already know.

Let's say that you have a MoCap key frame rate of 60Hz and your video frame rate is only 30Hz. It is basically like telling someone to be at some specific place at some specific time and they do it 60 times per second. But you only take a picture of where they were every other time. Those "other" times will never be seen by the camera so it is like it never happened and that person wasted half of his time. So you will never need more MoCap key frames than you have video frames.

On the other hand, if motion is smooth and linear, then your animation software's interpolation between key frames will do a very good job with a low key frame rate. But when motion is jerky then interpolation will have more error. But then if motion is fast and jerky then it will arguably be difficult for the viewer to perceive error anyway. It is between 30 FPS and 60 FPS where the human eye/brain losses the ability to perceive visual change and the ability to perceive "natural motion" is lost even before that happens. So, arguably, you should never need more than a 30 FPS key frame rate because the interpolations will be very close to what the real motion really was and is only on the edge of detectability considering the speed at which it is occuring. I think that 60 Hz vs. 30 Hz VIDEO frame rate is noticably better because the human eye is barely fast enough to detect the difference with individual frames for fast motion.  But the human eye will not be able to detect the error of interpolation for key frames at only 30 Hz with a 60 Hz video frame rate. So you may never need more than a 30 Hz MoCap key frame rate. For editing purposes, it would be best to have a key frame rate that evenly divides into your video frame rate.

Good salesmen know the selling points of their products where they have a one-up on the competition. The problem is that they often don't understand the important issues and don't know they are telling untruths. Worse, sometimes they do know better but they lie to people who don't understand and it often pays off with a sale that they wouldn't have gotten if they had been honest. The issue we are talking about boils down to the age old problem of signal-to-noise ratio. The signal is the "natural motion" you want and the "noise" can be caused by 1) too low of a key frame to video frame ratio and 2) too low of a sensor spacial resolution to video resolution ratio. And of course, the translation of spacial to percieved motion resolution is a function of how close your subject is to the camera lens (and/or its magnification setting).

Have you ever watched an episode of "Jane and the Dragon"? If you have not then you should make that your next homework assignment. "Natural Motion" really shines in this series. I was impressed with the natural looking motion which is not something you do with high key frame rates. It is all about the subtle little continuous motion that living beings have and this is not fast but it is slow and continuous. The faster the motion is the harder it is for your brain to keep up and the less ability it has to distinguish between "natural" and "artificial" motion. So, at least to me, to acheive "natural motion" you need to have continuous subtle slow movements (like breathing or balancing) during scenes when your actors are somewhat stationary as when they are having a conversation. High key frame rates will not help you much here. What will help you (if you are doing an HD production) is high spacial resolution in your MoCap system. The faster and more erratic the motion becomes, the less these things will matter because the viewer's brain losses its ability to keep up with the action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_5GEeHEkQI

None of what I said addresses the issue of proper rigging. If you don't have this done right, then your MoCap key frame rate will not correct the un-natural orientations that happen when rigging is not done properly. Also, kinetics aren't directly controlled by MoCap but indirectly. Watch Jane's hair as she moves around.

TheBadger

Thank you. Will read carefully and respond in time.
It has been eaten.

PabloMack

August 25, 2013, 10:57:55 am #6 Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 02:53:12 pm by PabloMack
I just discovered that the Kinect 2 Camera is due out next year. It will go all the way to 1920X1080 with three times the depth sensitivity and will require a USB3. Looks like I won't be buying a Kinect 1 after all. I definitely want the higher resolution. It's also supposed to have better motion tracking and even facial expression recognition.

TheBadger

I will wait then too! Do you have a month for the release ? The holidays?
It has been eaten.

PabloMack

August 25, 2013, 03:01:01 pm #8 Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:05:29 pm by PabloMack
Sounds like they are shooting for the holidays to synch with the new XBox One release   :D. But the release of Kinect 2 for Windows SDK will be delayed until some time in 2014  :-\.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-05-23-kinect-2-0-for-windows-due-next-year

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-05-23-kinect-2-0-for-windows-coming-in-2014

This one says that Kinect for Windows will be released before Kinect for XBox One in November:

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/gaming/consoles/kinect-2-for-windows-moving-to-developers-this-november-1162066

This is from MicroSoft and the November date is apparently only for developers who join a program for which there is limited membership. For the rest of us, I would expect it won't happen until some time in 2014.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/kinectforwindowsdev/newdevkit.aspx

TheBadger

QuoteThe smarter, more sophisticated sensor can process a whopping 2GB of data per second and track up to six skeletons at once. Microsoft's much-hyped Time-of-Flight technology also measures the time it takes photons to rebound off of a person or object.


Sounds good. But according to one of the links you posted, you wont be able to just buy an X1 and use the kinect2 that comes with it. It will use a proprietary connection. We will have to buy a separate kinect2 for less than $400.

Im sure someone will eventually fix up a hack to use the kinect2 that comes with every X1. But then you'll be waiting even longer.
It has been eaten.

PabloMack

Badger, aren't you a Mac guy or do you also have a Win machine?

TheBadger

The hardware will run via software. THere is mac soft now (and has been) to deal with Kinect.
It has been eaten.

TheBadger

December 14, 2013, 06:28:51 am #12 Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 06:35:27 am by TheBadger
QuoteHi,

Thank you very much for contacting us and for your interest in Fastmocap.

The basic edition is compatible with Maya 2014.

We are currently working on a new version of the software that will be compatible with the new Kinect hardware. However, there is no fixed release date yet.

Thank you.

Kind regards.

Ryan

Fastmocap team


also getting to know  this now http://blog.mixamo.com/news/bringing-emotions-to-game-characters-with-mixamos-new-facial-motion-capture-tech/
And link
http://www.mixamo.com/faceplus?utm_source=AMD-Blog&utm_medium=AMD-Blog&utm_term=FP-AMD-Blog-Face-Plus&utm_content=FP-AMD-Blog-Face-Plus&utm_campaign=FP-AMD-Blog-Face-Plus

And this
http://www.mixamo.com/upload_character
Unfortunately not all of my characters are bipedal in the traditional sense. So there my be a few issues. But talk about saving time!
It has been eaten.

PabloMack

I think these guys are way out of our league. How much of this can you understand?

http://www.awn.com/vfxworld/mocap-makes-realtime-previs-reality

PabloMack

Here's something official from MicroSoft about the "Kinect 2 for Windows" release date.

http://microsoft-news.com/kinect-for-windows-v2-launches-summer-2014/