2 Qestions; populate by proxy object? and Ngon stuff.

Started by TheBadger, August 13, 2014, 01:37:27 am

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TheBadger

August 13, 2014, 01:37:27 am Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 01:39:17 am by TheBadger
I was looking for a plant I need but will probably end up making my self  :-\.  But one one of the models I was looking at had a couple of interesting things in the object description

1)
Quote"The best way how to use these models: - Make Proxy object - Scatter it to have field"

2)
QuotePolygonal Ngons used


On 2, I have never had anything but problems with ngons in objects. Why would anyone want them? ? ?

And on 1,
this sounds interesting to me. Without knowing for sure it sounds like it is just as it sounds. Using some light object as a place holder for a heavy object. Visually I imagine this like how in TG a "bounding box" can represent the object. But instead of populating a hundred plant objects (copies), only one object is used.

Can anyone tell me more about populating proxies, and if it is an idea that can some how be put to use in TG?

Thanks.

Oh here is the plant I was looking at http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/corn-environment-3d-max/726603. I wont buy it. But its interesting.
I also looked at Xfrox. They have a wheat model too. Its nice because it has the plants whole life in stages. But I only want harvest ready, and need some verity there. Walli does not have wheat on his site which is to bad cause that would surly be the best price with quality... And already in all the good formats.

It has been eaten.

Upon Infinity

Regarding ngons, I believe that these are proprietary to only some pieces of 3d software, and not fully compatible with most 3d software.  Why use them?  I have no idea, but there's probably a purpose for them somewhere.

Scattering just means populating as opposed a single instance.

I'm just speculating on the proxy thing, but I believe that just means use a low-res or bounding box to display it in your 3d authoring software, as not to overload your computer with having to display high-res versions of every instance.
3D Models / Art Prints: www.uponinfinity.com | YouTube | Twitter | Support My Work

bobbystahr

Quote from: Upon Infinity on August 13, 2014, 11:17:15 am
Regarding ngons, I believe that these are proprietary to only some pieces of 3d software, and not fully compatible with most 3d software.  Why use them?  I have no idea, but there's probably a purpose for them somewhere.

Scattering just means populating as opposed a single instance.

I'm just speculating on the proxy thing, but I believe that just means use a low-res or bounding box to display it in your 3d authoring software, as not to overload your computer with having to display high-res versions of every instance.


Some wheat here

http://www.terragen.org/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat387;dlsort=id;desc;p=10http://www.terragen.org/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat387;dlsort=id;desc;p=10
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

bigben


bobbystahr

Quote from: bigben on August 13, 2014, 06:20:35 pm
Quote from: TheBadger on August 13, 2014, 01:37:27 am

Oh here is the plant I was looking at http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/corn-environment-3d-max/726603. I wont buy it.


I wouldn't by corn from anyone that's just going to sell you wheat either ;)



hee hee hee Ben, yer a caution....
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

TheBadger

Quote from: Upon Infinity on August 13, 2014, 11:17:15 am
Regarding ngons, I believe that these are proprietary to only some pieces of 3d software, and not fully compatible with most 3d software.  Why use them?  I have no idea, but there's probably a purpose for them somewhere.


An Ngon is a polygon with more than 4 verts.
Like so...
[attach=1]

I think he was just noting it so that no one would buy it and get pissed that he is a sloppy modeler. If I had bought it and found the ngons (if there was no waning) I would have been pretty pissed.

There is no benefit to an ngon at all, only potential problems. He was just lazy.

QuoteSome wheat here

Thanks B, I'll take a close look.

@ben,
I dont get it  ???
It has been eaten.

bobbystahr

TheBadger...the model linked was titled "corn" but it was wheat stalks ...no cobs
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

TheBadger

Quote from: bobbystahr on August 13, 2014, 09:17:34 pm
TheBadger...the model linked was titled "corn" but it was wheat stalks ...no cobs


Ahh, lol, Well then! Now Im really glad I did not buy it! He was even too lazy to proof his sales page! I mean I will post typos up the wazoo here, but its free for you guys to laugh. 30 bucks for the model and he does not even take the time to proof his page?.. WALLI, WHERE OR WHERE HAVE YOU GONE! Oh how I respect people who take pride in what they do!
It has been eaten.


Kadri


Michael here are some thoughts about ngons.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2872978

It does have its use sometimes basically. Look here and scroll to the ngons part below on that page.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Topology-the-often-neglected-entity/td-p/1922789/page/2

But i don't like them too and avoid them all the time.

TheBadger

August 13, 2014, 09:50:22 pm #10 Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 09:56:32 pm by TheBadger
Quote from: Kadri on August 13, 2014, 09:34:54 pm

Michael here are some thoughts about ngons.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2872978

It does have its use sometimes basically. Look here and scroll to the ngons part below on that page.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Topology-the-often-neglected-entity/td-p/1922789/page/2

But i don't like them too and avoid them all the time.


Thanks Kadri! That was a nice short yet informative read. Though he is simply making the argument that ngons are a way to cut corners.
I think he is right about it being okay for a plane or something flat and that has no dynamic purpose. But in the case of the wheat I linked it still screams lazy to me.
A plant is a living thing and even for a still image needs to have good construction so that it can be animated or even just displaced... The wheat above would explode in TG the moment it was displaced... if it opened and rendered properly at all.

Good info kadri. As for me, I still will avoid ngons like the plague. I don't even like ending up with 2 triangles in my models.. though it tends to happen on organic models some times.  >:(

OK, so I am sure about the ngons now. It just confused me that someone would sell a model with them, and post that they were there. I thought there was something about them that I had not heard before. But no just a strange item.

But what about proxies for objects in TG? As I understand it, TG loads a copy of any object in a population for every instance of the object. So, to be clear, for every instances of an object in a population, TG has actually loaded an object... If you have 10 trees in a scene it is not a representation of a single tree 10 times, but is actually the object 10 times.
But with the proxy, wouldn't a proxy mean you were using less memory and other system resources?!?
It has been eaten.

Hannes

I'm not quite sure, but isn't TG's population system something like scattering proxies? I mean it's absolutely no problem to have a population of millions of trees in a scene. But you wouldn't be able to place millions of trees into the scene by just adding them. So there might already be some clever trick.

j meyer

Populations - tend to agree with Hannes.

Ngons - Have you looked at the model pics of the model you linked to?
            When you look at other models on that site and what is said
            there under geometry (things like polygonal or subdivision)
            it seems to be likely that ngons,in this case, is just a more or
            less stupid/dumb/thoughtless way to describe the modeling
            technique used.

            Generally there can be occasions where ngons would be desireable.
            Thinking of geometrical things for example.But since the whole
            computer thing is based on a quad system (the xyz coordinatesystem)
            this can get a bit tricky,I guess.

Oshyan

Quote from: TheBadger on August 13, 2014, 09:50:22 pm
But what about proxies for objects in TG? As I understand it, TG loads a copy of any object in a population for every instance of the object. So, to be clear, for every instances of an object in a population, TG has actually loaded an object... If you have 10 trees in a scene it is not a representation of a single tree 10 times, but is actually the object 10 times.
But with the proxy, wouldn't a proxy mean you were using less memory and other system resources?!?


No, that's not correct, and that's probably where your misunderstanding of the product's description comes from. Terragen does exactly what it's suggesting: it takes 1 copy of an object and "instantiates" it hundreds or even millions of times, optionally varying the scale and rotation of course. But it does not have to load the object more than once, which is why you're able to have millions of instances without taking up 10s of GB of memory.

So the short answer to #2 is: You're already doing this with TG2 when you use Populations, they're just describing it in a more general sense.

- Oshyan

TheBadger

^^ You were right Hannes.
Thanks for the clarity Oshyan. After the responses above I figured that was probably correct. Its good to know for sure how it works. I do like having the correct facts to help me sort through all the info I find in bits and pieces online :)
It has been eaten.