Feature Request: Procedural Rock Grain Generator

Cyber-Angel · October 21, 2007, 01:30:12 AM

If TG2 is to move down the path of realistic terrain generation then we need to start looking at adding more geomorphology features, to start with Terragen really needs a procedural rock grain generator so that rock looks like rock as seen on this page http://www.angelstarcreations.com/rocks_minerals/rocks.htm as there are certain textures you can not achieve right now more on the subject can be found at this wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_size

Real rock has pores (Voids between individual rock particles) and other macro surface detail not currently seen in Terragen or any other terrain generation software at this time ideally Terragen would support mineralogy and come with the ability to generate the thirty known rock making minerals quartz, feldspar etc and be able to generate come rock types such as sandstone easily.

Rock grain (Also known as rock particles) size, shape, distribution etc are an important component of rock and should be included when development time allows.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

dhavalmistry · October 21, 2007, 12:01:21 PM

I think you can achieve certain amount of detail using powerfractals but I definitely wouldnt mind an easier way!

Volker Harun · October 21, 2007, 03:15:26 PM

I think any of these can be reproduced, at least faked in TG2.

Oshyan · October 21, 2007, 04:18:09 PM

I'm with Volker here. Our aim is to provide flexible tools that can create the widest variety of realistic effects possible. Although basis functions are currently limited, there is a remarkable amount of capability in the existing shaders already. It may be a bit more work than a more purpose-built "procedural rock grain generator", but it's possible, and with the same tools you can do a lot more besides, which is really the point.

We could spend weeks of development time trying to perfect a system to reproduce each different type of rock and structure, or we could simply leverage the power of the community and see what people come up with, giving you guys a place to share (the file sharing area) and eventually building up a substantial library of useful effects and surface types. We've already seen this approach in action and it works quite well.

We do intend to provide some examples with TG2, and hopefully a "library" of pre-defined resources at some point (surfaces, atmospheres, etc.), but for now the community is doing a fantastic job of putting those things together on their own.

- Oshyan

efflux · October 21, 2007, 05:25:53 PM

The voronoi function can achieve grain or say a sandstone effect but ideally we'd want this in a fractal especially for those people not into tweaking around with the nodes but you can presently simulate everything in those rocks except for light scattering in the more translucent ones.

Cyber-Angel · October 21, 2007, 08:11:44 PM

Oh well just a throat, and what I had in mind would maybe be needed for closeup work any way; but to my way of thinking surfaces in TG2 right now are to smooth (Yes you have displacement and other such methods) but lack that certain some thing that real life rocks have. At the moment (IMHO) you are going to have a hard time convincing a geologist (I happen to know one) that what they are looking at is a convincing representation of the natural world.

Yes, there are many fine examples of rock done with TG2 as it stands today and it is not the intent of this author to take any thing away from those individuals; my concern lies if you where to project a 4K TG2 scene on to an Anamorphic Projection Motion Picture Screen (2.35:1) and have the camera move past a rock face would you be able to convince you audience that what they where looking at is real (Suspension of Disbelief) and secondly how is a TD going match a TG2 Terrain to that of existing terrain captured in live action plates?

Any way TG2 is great (A little baffling at times) I look forward to the first commercial release latter this year, and yes reading the reviews as they come out and what they have say.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

Oshyan · October 21, 2007, 08:18:35 PM

Like most things in the effects industry I think at a certain point you might be better off just resorting to "cheating". In other words use a high resolution image-based texture. Provided a clean texture with neutral lighting and an appropriately matching displacement map I think you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between real rock and TG2. Use of image-based textures is a perfectly legitimate technique and if done properly it doesn't reduce any of the advantages of using a package like TG2 (as opposed to real photography).

- Oshyan

efflux · October 21, 2007, 08:38:32 PM

Image based texturing seems very successful in TG from what I've seen but I never tried it.

We'll get better and better at getting more naturalistic results, especially as functions get added to TG. I'd suggest that in actual fact using procedurals will eventually lead to much more efficient results for the things you mention because of their infinite detail. You literally could see the grains in a rock and then move to mountain scale. It's still early days for this technology and it's not easy to use or learn and requires a lot of computer power but the results will be worth the effort.

efflux · October 21, 2007, 10:37:54 PM

Actually, the voronoi basis in a fractal is pretty crucial. I'd put that at the top of my list now for things needed since the colour gradient issue can be got around in Nodes. At present Blender can create better rocks than TG2. We can create the surfaces and grain of a rock but the larger forms really need voronoi fractal.

FrankB · October 23, 2007, 06:25:51 AM

I would like to add the point, that once TG2 gets a "macro" feature, we'll be able to package all those complicated function networks in a simple-to-use macro node, with just a few sliders to adjust the essential parameters. That's what I'd really like to see as soon as the new renderer is finalized with its multi-threading support. To me, macros are a great productivity component, too.

This goes way beyond the current experiments on terrain manipulation, but ranges to complete atmospheres, cloud types, celestial bodies, and so on and so on...

I imagine that if the macro capabilities have been available right from the beginning, the overall range of available effects within TG2 must have grown enormously by now, considering all the functions that reside in the file sharing area already.

It's unfortunate that the function clip files are close to being unusable for most people, unless they are really simple, and the "user" takes the time to study the thought process of the creator that led to the actual function network. So in fact just a handful of people are truly skilled enough to really leverage the already shared "effects".

So in my mind, macros are high on the list. ;-)

Regards,
Frank

Volker Harun · October 23, 2007, 06:48:23 AM

Hi Frank,

I double this ... My heart starts pounding thinkink of Macros ,-)

Volker

FrankB · October 23, 2007, 07:27:17 AM

Quote from: Volker Harun on October 23, 2007, 06:48:23 AM
Hi Frank,

I double this ... My heart starts pounding thinkink of Macros ,-)

Volker

I kinda knew you were on my side ;-)

rcallicotte · October 23, 2007, 09:24:51 AM

This sounds really wonderful as long is it comes with clear documentation (written by Oshyan

) and yet I know I've learned so much by tearing into people's clip files and asking questions. I'm clearly not upset by this absence since it meant knowing this app.

Quote from: FrankB on October 23, 2007, 06:25:51 AM
It's unfortunate that the function clip files are close to being unusable for most people, unless they are really simple, and the "user" takes the time to study the thought process of the creator that led to the actual function network. So in fact just a handful of people are truly skilled enough to really leverage the already shared "effects".

So in my mind, macros are high on the list. ;-)

Regards,
Frank

FrankB · October 23, 2007, 09:31:21 AM

Quote from: calico on October 23, 2007, 09:24:51 AM
This sounds really wonderful as long is it comes with clear documentation (written by Oshyan ) and yet I know I've learned so much by tearing into people's clip files and asking questions. I'm clearly not upset by this absence since it meant knowing this app.

Yeah... similair like the feeling of endless gratefulness that overcomes you from time to time, when you think about all the useful things you learn about seeding and harvesting corn, just because there's no place to simply buy popcorn from a shelf ;-)

rcallicotte · October 23, 2007, 10:36:26 AM

I've found I can do more with an application if I understand it as opposed to knowing some of its working parts. Fortunately, this community has provided this opportunity.

Looking forward to the macros.

Quote from: FrankB on October 23, 2007, 09:31:21 AM
Quote from: calico on October 23, 2007, 09:24:51 AM
This sounds really wonderful as long is it comes with clear documentation (written by Oshyan ) and yet I know I've learned so much by tearing into people's clip files and asking questions. I'm clearly not upset by this absence since it meant knowing this app.

Yeah... similair like the feeling of endless gratefulness that overcomes you from time to time, when you think about all the useful things you learn about seeding and harvesting corn, just because there's no place to simply buy popcorn from a shelf ;-)