Author Topic: Roman harbour  (Read 2095 times)

Offline Dune

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2019, 10:05:30 AM »
Some more tests, as I was struggling with the normals. Maybe the way I build the windows is not very good (especially the curved window tops add some elongated tripled polys in the walls).
So I didn't recalculate the normals for the walls in Poseray, but found that the texture is then added in a different way, which I didn't realize.

Also, importing a bump map in the default shader gives a different result from an image map import (fed into function slot). In another thread I read about adding lineair bump would be better than non-lineair, so I tested that. There is indeed a difference, and I think I prefer the lineair input, which is a bit softer. But in the default shader there's no way to set lineair, and this might be an interesting addition (Matt?).
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 10:10:14 AM by Dune »

Offline sboerner

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2019, 03:51:42 PM »
This is a very interesting test, Ulco. Thank you for posting. Some of the differences are quite subtle, so I'll be downloading these to take a closer look in Photoshop.

Quote
But in the default shader there's no way to set linear, and this might be an interesting addition (Matt?).

I've often wished for this, too, but have hesitated to ask because it seems the default shader is intended to be just that – "default" – and if you want the extra capability you can add an image map shader. But when you have many images in a shading network this adds time and complexity. (I try to use linear for everything, diffuse as well as displacement.)

May I ask what bit depth you're using for the displacement maps?

And thanks for showing us your model in-progress. it does look like some things may be going on there with the normals. In Maya I would unlock the normals to fix that, which is probably similar to recalculate in PoseRay.

Offline Dune

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2019, 06:54:15 AM »
I actually don't know why the default shader is called just that, but I'm used to the terminology now. It's used in all objects, and it's far more work to import image maps for each, so I would welcome an extra button. So, diffuse too, mmm, never tried that.
Bit depth is 8, which would give 256 gradations. I think that would be enough for a few millimeters/centimeters of bump. Are you using more bits?

Working from Lightwave I have to unmerge all points or my texture maps go awry in Poseray, stretched strangely sometimes. Then in PR I change all groups to materials, merge points and recalculate normals for each material (some of course need higher angles, like draped cloth). Standard is 35º. Maybe recalculating isn't even necessary, but the texture (as said) comes on differently then.
But with walls you also have inset windows, where I mostly use only one 45º angled polygon to soften that angle a bit. So then I need to increase the normal angle, and sometimes get into trouble if some areas in one material should be 'flat', others have a corner to soften.
But now I knifed the areas just above the windows once more and got rid of the nasty 'shadows' in those elongated triangular polys. Though I probably should have built it differently from the start. I still have to learn a lot, I guess.

Offline masonspappy

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2019, 11:49:26 AM »
The modeling has come along nicely. Wonderful job with this!

Offline DocCharly65

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2019, 02:21:27 PM »
Very nice details work, Ulco.

There's something I obviousliy don't understand (as "non-modeller" ;) ): Is the render with the "nonrecalculated normals" what you intend? I like this one more. When I don't recalculate normals I mostly get exactly the opposite effect in my TG renders. So I need to recalculate normals in most cases to avoid strange curves in the polygons.

Offline bobbystahr

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2019, 02:39:06 PM »
Thanks Bobby, I didn't know those sites yet. Doug helped me with some textures too, and I think I've found something that will suit for now. We'll see what the client thinks, after I've done the whole harbour. This is just a (bit extended) test for background stuff. Path traced by the way.

welcome and LOL at "Hey, vermin, that out of the hole!"
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

Offline sboerner

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2019, 03:22:30 PM »
Quote
Bit depth is 8, which would give 256 gradations. I think that would be enough for a few millimeters/centimeters of bump. Are you using more bits?

You're probably right. I use 32-bit for all displacements, mainly to standardize my workflow so I don't have to decide whether something needs to be 8 or 32. Probably overkill. But the file sizes aren't that much different (32-bit exr v. 8-bit tif) and I have noticed a difference even with small displacements on things like tree bark.

Converting an existing texture file, straight up, from 8 to 32 probably doesn't help – it just gives you 256 levels stored as floating point values. But if you start with a large working file, convert, then downsample (say from 4k to 1k) the intermediate values get interpolated and you'll get less banding. If you start out with 32 bit of course it's much better.

Pardon the digression. This is a really fine model, Ulco. You have such an eye for detail. Love the ceilings and interior details that show through the windows, and the surface is looking great.

Offline Dune

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2019, 03:42:22 PM »
With the not recalculated normals you get the normals that were made in Lightwave, but sometimes I wish to alter those. Indeed I also liked that non-recalculted more, the other one is just no good. But I got it fixed now, made some more polys, also on corners, so now some are soft and some are flat. I also doubled the ceiling/floor, so now that has depth too (and two different textures). And it seems even less light is getting through into those rooms, which is good.

I think it's rare to get hold of 32-bit bump/displacement maps, hence my use of only 8-bit. These I make from photo's (like bark) in Pixplant, saved as greyscale. Only the Megascans (and such) come with 32-bit displacement maps, I guess.
I don't know if you would really see that difference (except maybe really close-up), working from a large file and downsizing in 32-bit or 8-bit. It would be an interesting test! For me low MB's is still a goal too, I wouldn't like to have my scenes crashing over too many gigs if the files get a little large in textures/objects.

Offline sboerner

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2019, 04:42:10 PM »
Quote
I don't know if you would really see that difference (except maybe really close-up), working from a large file and downsizing in 32-bit or 8-bit. It would be an interesting test!

Agreed! If I have time this weekend I'll do that.

Bottom line is that you have come up with a process that works for you. The results speak for themselves.

Offline Dune

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2019, 05:36:32 AM »
Another part of the illustration would be militairy ships. Small ones, luckily, for the streams and harbour were very shallow. Problems arise inevitably, such as making a decent mask to lower/delete the water where the hull is. It's not good enough yet, obviously. Also the inner and outer hull have the same texture, so any wetness on the outside will be on the inside (but that's easily remedied).
And then these rowers, pfff. I didn't particularly like to make so many (not paid enough to do that), so I copied them and rotated heads (pulled out noses and such too) and moved them about a slight bit in ZBrush. They could be shaved slaves, ha, because hair is another matter. I also had to reduce the initial guy, or I would crash my apps.
Pathtrace of this took too long, so this is an RT test.

Offline Dune

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2019, 12:15:01 PM »
The only problem I encounter is that a mask will not work properly if a hull is angled. As soon as  a wave is higher or lower than the height at which the mask works perfectly, gaps or water appears. So I needed some extra painted shader strokes (which would of course be impossible for animations).

Offline sboerner

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2019, 12:39:50 PM »
This is where a boolean operator for surface intersections might come in handy.

Your crew looks good. Nice touch on the small wakes beneath the oars.

Offline bobbystahr

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2019, 05:09:40 PM »
one of the ancient Romans on the right side is wearing a ball cap? LOL
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

Offline bobbystahr

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2019, 05:11:53 PM »
Another part of the illustration would be militairy ships. Small ones, luckily, for the streams and harbour were very shallow. Problems arise inevitably, such as making a decent mask to lower/delete the water where the hull is. It's not good enough yet, obviously. Also the inner and outer hull have the same texture, so any wetness on the outside will be on the inside (but that's easily remedied).
And then these rowers, pfff. I didn't particularly like to make so many (not paid enough to do that), so I copied them and rotated heads (pulled out noses and such too) and moved them about a slight bit in ZBrush. They could be shaved slaves, ha, because hair is another matter. I also had to reduce the initial guy, or I would crash my apps.
Pathtrace of this took too long, so this is an RT test.

I'd say an encouraging test render...Big LIKE
something borrowed,
something Blue.
Ring out the Old.
Bring in the New
Bobby Stahr, Paracosmologist

Offline DocCharly65

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Re: Roman harbour
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2019, 10:32:02 AM »
Big effort! Nice result so far!

...why not place a hidden easter egg like one slave wearing a tshirt of a well-known rowing team… ;)