Functions Academy

Started by archonforest, August 08, 2019, 12:15:50 pm

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archonforest

Yes lets separate the nodes by topic under a main location here Matt. I think it is a great idea and will make the search easier for everybody. Perhaps all the good data/examples/screenshots later can go to the Wiki page to enrich the dry lol stuff that is there.

I would like to ask everybody who decides to help on this to make small examples, screenshots of the node network they explaining as they help A LOT for those who are not that good in math. A dry explanation combined with pictures can bring more understanding for many. Thanx!
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Dune

Though I understand the initiative, I honestly don't know what you're expecting of this; there's only a handful of users posting stuff... so 'everybody who decides to help'; who would they all be? And for whom?
Sorry for my doomful reply  :P 

archonforest

Well I am expecting data that can help people to understand better the blue nodes. I am sure we have people around who are TG users but not posting. But if we manage to gather up useful information that can open the eyes of others...well you never know...the community might get bigger and I am sure more people will contribute here also. People have a tendency to help back when they receive help.

And from who I am expecting help and write ups? I could name some users but I won't. Enforced help is not a good thing. I know users here who are very capable to pitch in here but it is up to the individuals to decide. I am great-full for all usable data we can have here.

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cyphyr

I think it needs to be done and is long overdue.
The SideFX Houdini node descriptions keep being mentioned and they do have a very good format. I think we should aim for something along those lines.
One issue is that colour nodes are much easier to show how they work than scalar or vector (see my illustrations above) but I think that is surmountable.

I keep coming back to my point about gaining a META understanding of how the nodes work. As shown above when we learn that the ADD_COLOUR node is the same as (and an internal component of) the Add colour element of a merge node we learn very much more than when we simply describe what the ADD_COLOUR does.
I think this needs to be reinforced across the node descriptions. Show how blue nodes are the building blocks of the red nodes at every opportunity. Integrating new knowledge with old knowledge is the key to successful learning.

I also believe that a foundation "chapter" needs to be laid out talking about:
1: the three types of node input/output (Colour, Scalar, Vector), what they are and how they are used
2: the two types of space (texture space and world space).(please correct me on this :) )
3: the difference between linear colour space and (photoshops) Gamma colour space.
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N-drju

Quote from: cyphyr on August 10, 2019, 03:40:41 amI also believe that a foundation "chapter" needs to be laid out talking about:
1: the three types of node input/output (Colour, Scalar, Vector), what they are and how they are used
2: the two types of space (texture space and world space).(please correct me on this :) )
3: the difference between linear colour space and (photoshops) Gamma colour space.

Not too much time for me today, but just came by to say - good thinking.

Segregating nodes into some basic categories first, is an excellent entry point.

Otherwise, it's just a myriad of menu items that you look at and are unable to group up in your mind.
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WAS

Quote from: Dune on August 10, 2019, 03:12:20 amThough I understand the initiative, I honestly don't know what you're expecting of this; there's only a handful of users posting stuff... so 'everybody who decides to help'; who would they all be? And for whom?
Sorry for my doomful reply  :P 

I will always help where I can. May not be able to do much in regards to functions beyond super basic stuff. I can help with some texturing and surface shader example stuff or descriptions. I can breakdown some of my past stuff for method demonstration which people seem to want more than documentation. Lol
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WAS

Quote from: Matt on August 09, 2019, 02:42:59 pm
Quote from: undefinedMaybe the forum could be called Node Reference so it can encompass more than just functions.

That name isn't ideal because it we already have a Node Reference in the Wiki: http://www.planetside.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Terragen_Node_Reference

What about Node Demonstration or Node Tutoring, as I think we can all agree from peoples positions, these topics will quickly turn to demonstrations.
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Oshyan

The initiative and interest here is really great! If this is going to be really useful I think it needs to be done in a way that we can link to and/or integrate with the existing main documentation. So we'd like to formalize this effort to some degree, not in terms of who contributes or when, etc., but as far as structure and a few other overall guidelines. Matt and I will come up with our requested structure and help set it up or otherwise facilitate as-needed (e.g. create a new forum if necessary, etc.). We'll update here soon with specifics. So I'd suggest holding off on additional specific planning until you hear what we are recommending, and then we can discuss and refine if necessary.

- Oshyan

Matt

But keep posting helpful info on functions, because we can always migrate posts to the new structure :)
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

WAS

Quote from: Oshyan on August 10, 2019, 05:24:13 pmThe initiative and interest here is really great! If this is going to be really useful I think it needs to be done in a way that we can link to and/or integrate with the existing main documentation. So we'd like to formalize this effort to some degree, not in terms of who contributes or when, etc., but as far as structure and a few other overall guidelines. Matt and I will come up with our requested structure and help set it up or otherwise facilitate as-needed (e.g. create a new forum if necessary, etc.). We'll update here soon with specifics. So I'd suggest holding off on additional specific planning until you hear what we are recommending, and then we can discuss and refine if necessary.

- Oshyan

It probably shouldn't have been brought up by @Matt than in community discussion. xD And it most certainly should be a new forum. Don't create more clutter and confusion, please. Lol Forums already don't have enough sections to facilitate the posts and things end up condensed and generalized.
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Matt

August 10, 2019, 06:42:06 pm #40 Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 07:15:40 pm by Matt
Are you trying to be unhelpful? Please think before you post. We have a plan, it will be a new forum and it won't add clutter.
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

WAS

Quote from: Matt on August 10, 2019, 06:42:06 pmAre you trying to unhelpful? Please think before you post. We have a plan, it will be a new forum and and it won't add clutter.

Could be perceived as helpful. I have almost 22 years of community forum management, some of which incredibly large communities.

I'm just saying you brought it up with us, discussing, and especially about it being a forum. Oshyan was kind of disrespectful, and unhelpful to the discussion, regardless of what you are doing behind the doors, we can talk, and have ideas...
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Oshyan

In what way was I disrespectful or unhelpful?

- Oshyan

WAS

Quote from: Oshyan on August 10, 2019, 06:50:36 pmIn what way was I disrespectful or unhelpful?

- Oshyan

Specifically targeting points I've made in contradiction "So we'd like to formalize this effort to some degree, not in terms of who contributes or when, etc., but as far as structure and a few other overall guidelines." And about "if" it requires a forum. It's not very supportive regardless of introductory phrasing, and also singles out my ideas specifically.

It seems obvious to me, and wasn't even brought to my attention by me (I was told about it while working).

Not trying to get into an argument about it here, but Matt brought up the discussion with us, it seemed perfectly open to discussion, and you post is more of a shutdown. Why I believe Matt felt the need to add his follow-up post.
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Oshyan

August 10, 2019, 07:25:21 pm #44 Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 07:27:19 pm by Oshyan
You yourself brought up concern that the effort could be disorganized if not structured right. You suggested a separate forum as a solution but I don't think that entirely solves the range of potential problems on its own. So what we are doing is providing structure and systems to help facilitate this work. That is a positive goal, as far as I can see, and not a negative or even direct comment against you or anyone else.

What I am referring to in my post above is simply formalizing more fully Matt's suggestions and ideas, not negating them. In discussion with him we realized that there was good reason to provide not only a place to put content, but some guidelines about how best to post it to try to maintain good structure and easily referenced content. So that's what we're aiming to do.

- Oshyan