Feature Request: The secret to Global Clouds & Waves

Started by Sethren, December 21, 2007, 11:20:41 PM

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Sethren

Just some thoughts about what would be nice to have in Terragen 2 at some point for new nodal functions.

dhavalmistry

yes...this could be very useful...specially the vortex....
"His blood-terragen level is 99.99%...he is definitely drunk on Terragen!"

Sethren

Think about the vortex part in this sense to. Imagine applying a vortex curve function along the Y Axis in the + Positive direction with a low percentage applied from the vortex which setting it to a low setting only curves the terrain/water shader to a certain degree while going mostly upward. I would imagine perhaps an altitude setting would be needed as well for small waves or huge waves. Then applying another curving percentage in the X or Z Axis direction because the wave must overall only go one way of course. In effect you have an arching wave. Curve strength settings can determine how much twisting there is in the function. So on extreme settings one could make a almost never ending twisting pattern. If such a function could be applied to a water shader then you have those nice sea shore waves. If the shore effects are ever to be put into Terragen 2 like what was in old Terragen had then you got the foam and conforming waves as well.

This might not make much sense in some parts. It's late and i am tired.    ;D

Cyber-Angel

Would this only consider large scale phenomena or would it be flexible enough to include small scale phenomena such as the Coriolis effect and other associated phenomena? I think that any such effort should in its design consider factors such as the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and chaos theory among other principles for due consideration in the model.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

jo

Hi Cyber-Angel,

Quote from: Cyber-Angel on December 22, 2007, 08:07:40 AM
Would this only consider large scale phenomena or would it be flexible enough to include small scale phenomena such as the Coriolis effect and other associated phenomena?

Plug hole simulation? :-). The Coriolis effect is actually kind of large scale, because it's caused by the rotation of the Earth. Anyway, what is being described are simply effects, results of mathematical functions, and they can therefore they can be applied at any scale. I would imagine they could already be implemented using the function nodes if people were keen.

QuoteI think that any such effort should in its design consider factors such as the Heisenberg uncertainty principle

You wouldn't be able to view the render without changing how it looks...

Regards,

Jo

green_meklar

QuoteImagine applying a vortex curve function along the Y Axis in the + Positive direction with a low percentage applied from the vortex which setting it to a low setting only curves the terrain/water shader to a certain degree while going mostly upward. I would imagine perhaps an altitude setting would be needed as well for small waves or huge waves. Then applying another curving percentage in the X or Z Axis direction because the wave must overall only go one way of course. In effect you have an arching wave.
I'm not sure I understand your process, but the principle of an arcing wave sounds good anyway! :P

I'm thinking another possible use for the vortex function would be to create whirlpools, for example in a ship's wake. Of course for that you'd also want a way to set multiple whirlpools placed at certain intervals, sort of like what we don't yet have with craters...
QuoteYou wouldn't be able to view the render without changing how it looks...
XD
You know what's worse than not being able to do anything right or make anything good? Not being able to blame it on anyone but yourself.

Cyber-Angel

Jo,

Could you enplane to me what you mean by "You wouldn't be able to view the render without changing how it looks..." just to be clear and to avoid misunderstandings ?

My understanding of the Coriolis effect is that it not only produces large scale phenomena but also macro-scale phenomena as well and these should also be included if realism (Physically Based) is the goal!     

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

Sethren


Well if it can be done by mathematical functions, it would be a minor miracle to achieve this effect. I would investigate this if i had the time but due to my lack of understanding all these arithmetic nodes i would probably tear my hair out after months of trying to get it down, hence the reason why new nodes would make it easy for the common user.

The only micro-scale that would be seen is if you were near the ground level, from a planet view this is irrelevant as the renderer would only see large-scale effects. Note that a Photoshop Plugin called LunarCell does these effects although more cheep web graphics looking but the principle of the functionality is there. Now if a crap Photoshop Plugin can do this, then Terragen should have something similar and easy to use.

Nothing needs to be physically correct here. Were only faking what nature has, not trying to be accurate in simulations. I don't want to feel like a scientist here, just an artist. No offense.    ;)

dhavalmistry

hey seth.....do you have the full res version of the pic you posted....
"His blood-terragen level is 99.99%...he is definitely drunk on Terragen!"

Virex

Quote from: Cyber-Angel on December 22, 2007, 05:46:18 PM
Could you enplane to me what you mean by "You wouldn't be able to view the render without changing how it looks..." just to be clear and to avoid misunderstandings ?
Quatum theory. Something is in a "quantum state" if it's not being observed. That means that it is partially in all possible states, divided acording to the chance that it has that state. Once someone observes it, the quantum state colapses and the state of the boject is defined.
`So the preview render is all possibilities a bit, untill you look at it.

Sethren

Quote from: dhavalmistry on December 22, 2007, 07:21:14 PM
hey seth.....do you have the full res version of the pic you posted....

If you have an image editor that reads Photoshop compatible Plugins you can download a 30 day trial of LunarCell here.

http://www.flamingpear.com/download.html

If none of your photo editing software does not read 8BFs then i would be happy to post a larger resolution version at sendspace or filenanny.   :)

rcallicotte

I agree with Sethren...still knowing you guys are pretty frikkin' busy. 

Hopefully, eh?
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Tangled-Universe

Quote from: Cyber-Angel on December 22, 2007, 08:07:40 AM
Would this only consider large scale phenomena or would it be flexible enough to include small scale phenomena such as the Coriolis effect and other associated phenomena? I think that any such effort should in its design consider factors such as the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and chaos theory among other principles for due consideration in the model.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applies to particle-scale physics (for example: you can't simultaneously measure a particle's speed and position because measuring it's position affecsts it's speed and vice versa). I don't see the reason to implement this in a renderer because this scale is irrelevant.
Same for chaos theory, you don't want that also, because you want to be in full control of your (dynamic) system. You want to control the appearance of everything in your render, ultimately.
These 2 factors are only interesting in scientific simulations I think.


Thereby I'm wondering why many people are making very specific feature requests?
Isn't it more important to first understand the program, all its ins & outs?
I think it's much more fun to apply specific effects to already beautiful scenes.
For example, what's the fun of having a TG generated rainbow in a sky with ugly clouds above an 'untextured' terrain?

What I'm trying to say is that there's yet so much to explore in this program and so much to learn for everybody here. There are only a handful of people, maybe even less!, who completely master TG2.
I always think: first things first...those awesome features can come later. So don't understand me wrong, the feature requests are often good ideas, like in this topic. I also understand that feature requests are meant to think about future possibilities with TG2, but like I said there's yet more than enough to explore and learn.
Just my opinion on this matter :)

Cyber-Angel

#13
Let me explain my self and this is not some thing I either like to do or will do often, the reason I asked for Chaos Theory to be included is for the unpredictable randomness it introduces into systems which is what nature is random you might understand parts of the whole system but never the whole system, in scientific papers on the natural world you will come across statements such as "It is Presumed That..." and "It is Assumed That..." due to data not been easily obtainable with instrumentation and methodologies used today.

Nature is not linear Black and White there are many shades of Grey there as well which brings me to say (Again and as many times, in as many places, to as many people until it is hammered firmly home) that CGI is the hospital clean and clinical version of nature the natural world (Look outside any window or walk outside) is the diametric opposite of this.

The earth has been around for around 4.5 Billion Years or so and in that time certain immutable laws have established them selves and are there for a reason, as surly as the earth revolves around the sun the vary least we can do if we wish to imitate nature is at least try and use them.

If its a question of technology then shouldn't we be pushing for it or at least filling enough Class Actions to get it, I mean look at where we've come for in the last Sixty Years: Open Heart Surgery (Including the invention of the Heart Bypass Machine), The Invention of the Radio Telescope, The Communications Satellite, The Transistor, The Microwave Oven, Putting Man on the Moon (By 2020/2035 Mars) and the building of the ISS: so how hard is it if enough like minded people decided to so to move the technology for the CGI industry or must it remain the poor cousin of the Aerospace and defense Sectors?

I think quite frankly that future generations of people involved in CGI will find it quite laughable at the levels of backtracking, workarounds and other kinds compromise found in this the seventh year of the third decade of CGI and to them I can only deeply and profoundly apologize.

There is a great deal I don't know (Its One of those {Adopts pseudo US Accent} "Why Hell Son, Why I said Why the Hell-Didn't You Say So Before") type moments but I try.

___________________________________________________________________________

Postscript and Notice:

I have nether time nor inclination to write here for fun (Fun is what other people do) or small talk and further more find humanity rather baffling, I don't need a 200 page paper to say I don't know I will just say so and there is no Hidden Agenda  what I say is what I mean Period, and I can debate (If needs must) the finer points till the cows come home.

I do not always have time or inclination to express the full intent of what I mean but I try to leave the kernel of the intent and move forward, I try to provide starting points for things that might other wise get over looked.  :-\

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel                           

Tangled-Universe

#14
Ho ho ho, take it easy man... ;D You seem to feel offended already because of my 4 lines?
Don't you think I have a point saying that implementing chaos- and heisenberg-effects (latter in particular) aren't relevant for TG2, certainly not at the moment?
It's like asking Matt to make the TG2 final an hyperaccurate real-world physics simulated photo-realistic renderer.
I understand what you're trying to say above the postscript and notice, being a scientist myself and thus daily with my nose in the scientific papers as well, but I think you're thinking way too much steps ahead and therefore I said: first things first...fancy things will come later.
And that's not 'sticking my neck in the sand'.

It's ok to mention things which might be overlooked, providing starting-points, leaving the kernel and move forward as you say yourself,...but as for now as example someone like me doesn't agree with your idea this time and then it's unnecessary to react this way (first sentence and the postscirpt and notice for example).
These things can and will happen (chaos theory? ;)) that's no big deal at all, I just didn't agree with your 2 proposals  :P

Martin