cloud samples and rendertime

Started by gastar, January 11, 2008, 06:39:52 AM

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gastar

after my last post No... its not a fake or image manipulation, some people don't understand why I use 1024 and more cloud samples, I try to explain...

If the clouds are far away on your image, its not important to increase the cloud samples over 1024, max 256 samples is enough. If the clouds are in front of your image and you would like nice detail clouds, you must increase the samples. By using low samples rate, you can see the noise in the clouds. By using a cloud density value over 5, TG2 increase the samples automatically, because the clouds have more volume.

Check the first image, 4 clouds with different settings, which cloud do you prefer? The second images show's perfectly why I use many samples.


my rendermachine is a AMD X2 4200+ corespeed 2,4 GHz, 1 GB Ram,...

I hope the examples are helpful.

Gastar
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gastar

second image
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Blonderator

Although higher cloud samples are beneficial, I think 1500 cloud samples is overkill.

You could probably get the same/better quality by using something like 400 cloud samples and simply increasing the render detail from .75 to 1
Maybe I'm wrong, but there's no noise in my cloud renders and I use around 400 samples every time.

gastar

Quote from: Blonderator on January 11, 2008, 07:18:11 AM
Although higher cloud samples are beneficial, I think 1500 cloud samples is overkill.

You could probably get the same/better quality by using something like 400 cloud samples and simply increasing the render detail from .75 to 1
Maybe I'm wrong, but there's no noise in my cloud renders and I use around 400 samples every time.

Ok I render the second image with 400 samples again and then we can look if there noise or not.

can you post a image with big clouds and 400 samples???

Gastar
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dhavalmistry

some nice clouds....but I dont think you need 128 atmosphere samples...and I also agree with Blonderator
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rcallicotte

While I agree with DH and Blonderator, once the renderer picks up speed in days to come (after the update, for example), it won't matter as much and might be more a matter of discretion.
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Oshyan

There are a couple things to look at here.

Most importantly your tests would be more conclusive if you had changed *fewer* parameters for each comparison. Changing *both* atmosphere and cloud sample levels doesn't give you an accurate comparison, especially for render time. I would either leave the atmosphere samples at 16 to 32 for *both* image tests for consistency, or use 128 for *both*, thus elminating it as a source of potential noise in both tests. That way the atmosphere sampling contributes equally to render time in both tests and you can really see the impact of just the increased cloud samples and the relative quality increases.

It's important to understand that increases in atmosphere sampling are *not* necessary to correspond with increased cloud sampling and, except in heavily shadowed scenes, complex lighting, or in the presence of atmospheric rays I never recommend more than 64 atmosphere samples. Sometimes it's necessary, but you should remember that these settings are separate for a reason (otherwise we'd have an overall "atmosphere samples" slider), and they should be used with discretion.

One of the reasons for the need of such high cloud samples in your particular examples is the combination of high density and a noisy input function. Obviously if that seems to be the only way to create the desired effect then yes you need to use high samples to get good quality, but to my eyes that level of noise/roughness is almost always unrealistic, and high density is not necessarily the only way to achieve a better look of "solidity". If you reduced the roughness of the input function and the density a bit you would need fewer samples for equivalent quality, and you'd probably increase overall visual realism as well.

- Oshyan

gastar

Thanks Oshyan for this information.

I will create some new test render and make more examples like my posted images. I hope in the future I will better understand how to create the perfect clouds...  :)

Gastar
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PG

Any chance of sharing that second cloud formation gastar? I love it   ;D
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Blonderator

Heres my clouds: http://blonderator.deviantart.com/art/Cloud-Test-2-74262196

I used 320 cloud samples, and 32 atmospheric samples. Although there is some noise in the center of the image, it was simply a test. But I think you can understand that 1500 cloud samples is about 5 times as many samples as I used. I see your reasoning, but past a certain point, increasing samples will only increase the render time, not the quality.

PG

it's all about balance with TG2. Thats why I always turn GI settings off. I don't do images close to the ground because I haven't got the hang of populations or textures yet so I don't need that extra detail. It saves me the render time of all those little dots being splashed onto my screen. Cloud samples are just one piece of TG2's quality settings ratio that need to be examined for each render as they will need to be configured differently for each image. Also on the Full Render node, the main detail slider. I find that there is no visible quality difference between 1 and 0.93 (yes I'm using the free edition) but there is quite a substantial render time difference.
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moodflow

Nice work Gastar.  You've shown that samples can even affect larger detail and even lighting.   This is especially apparent in your second render.  Its good that you ran this test, b/c this is not readily apparent that samples would affect lighting/detail as well.

As for the numbers to use, I go by what the scene requires.  I never use less than 196 samples on clouds (except for cirrus), and never had to go above 64 samples for atmosphere (yet).  Since you've shown this can affect lighting and larger scale details, I might start playing with higher levels myself (especially when multicore support comes out).

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moodflow

Quote from: PG on January 11, 2008, 04:38:04 PM
it's all about balance with TG2. Thats why I always turn GI settings off.

I know you'd be doing this to save on render time, but GI can really add some realism to images, and help get rid of that plastic-like cardboard look that alot of landscape renders have.
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Oshyan

GI also affects clouds and large-scale lighting of the terrain so even when not close-up it can be beneficial (it increases realism a great deal in orbital renders of clouds for example).

- Oshyan

gastar

@Blonderator: your clouds are nice, a little dark but very smooth... and there is no noise... good work

@PG: I share this file here http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3156.0

I think to found the right settings, the best way is to make some crop test render. I agree, its not nessary to use always 128 atmosphere samples or more then 1000 cloud samples, its different from scene to scene.

I never switch off GI, here a example why... first image without GI, second with GI



Gastar
current: AMD 4200+, 2 GB RAM, 500 GB, Geforce 7950 GX2
2010:    AMD Quadcore 3 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, more Space, ...
2015:    256 Core CPU, 16 GB RAM, more then 20 Terrabyte and a 64Bit Terragen Verison...