Ownership of Lego Block Architecture

Started by rcallicotte, September 03, 2009, 04:21:12 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

rcallicotte

Planetside has very kindly allowed us (for a small fee) to use their Lego Blocks. This machine is programmable to make a near infinite variety of cars, houses, people and beer bottles, etc. I, as a user, can either make up my own Lego Block Architecture from scratch, download one from my local Lego library or buy one from the Lego Block shop. I can then take apart the patterns, modify them and then produce a new beer bottle, hat, etc. I can also take my Block Architecture to the local library or shop and make it available for others to use, either free or for a small fee.

My apologies to Cyphyr for taking his wording and changing it.  But, I'm not selling it, so I shouldn't be in any trouble and I'm giving it away.  So, we're cool.  Right?   ;D

Hope so.  I completely agree with him.

That's why I buy the cheaper NWDA contract, since I don't have plans to use NWDA's work to make money.  But, if I ever do use their stuff to make money, I'll do the right thing - buy the correct NWDA agreement.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

cyphyr

September 03, 2009, 04:48:34 pm #1 Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 04:55:39 pm by cyphyr
LOL  ::) ;D

we're oh so very cool :)

But what if you learn whilst using the NWDA presets and then sometime later build your own preset, without referencing the NWDA preset but ultimately bassed on the knowledge you acquired through use of the NWDA preset, what then. You bought the preset entirely legitimately, you hav e not used that preset to make any money commercially but you did learna new skill which you have then made money with.

Where is the line? At what point did you develop your own ideas beyond the preset?

Because these questions are so difficult to answer and ultimately come down to individual interpretation I dont see how an EULA can work on what is effectively teaching materials.

:)

Richard
www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
/|\

Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
i7 5930K @3.5Ghz, 32Gb (TG4 benchmark 13.44)

Zairyn Arsyn

 :D :D :D :D
this is getting ridiculous.......(but i like that.)
WARNING! WIZARDS! DO NOT PREDICT THE BEHAVIOR OF OTTERS UNLESS YOU OBEY BIG HAPPY TOES.

i7 2600k 3.4GHZ|G.skill 16GB 1600MHZ|Asus P8P67 EVO|Evga 770GTX 4GB|SB X-FI|Antec 750W
http://zlain81.deviantart.com/

Henry Blewer

I was totally fooled. I thought that this was a new feature. Lego like was what came to mind. With this I thought, cool, blocks to build houses and barns and other buildings.
Oh well. I guess my nodes are not connected this evening...
http://flickr.com/photos/njeneb/
Forget Tuesday; It's just Monday spelled with a T

rcallicotte

I don't think it's ridiculous, since I just got an email from Frank telling me about copyright law.  Let's get it straight - if I pay for a commercial license, then I need to honor that agreement.  But, for someone other than me even that is shaky ground, based upon the nature of Terragen's nodal system.  It's isn't algorithms and I don't believe a court would uphold someone's complaint that I copied someone else's concept in a nodal form.  If it does mean that, then it means most people using the product of Terragen could possibly be held liable by accident.  That's not so good for business.

What is getting ridiculous is seeing how many of the creative ideas that were once here have become $$, instead of about learning how to use the product.  That is why I'm spending less and less time here.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Sp34k

Quote from: njeneb on September 03, 2009, 06:30:23 pm
I was totally fooled. I thought that this was a new feature. Lego like was what came to mind. With this I thought, cool, blocks to build houses and barns and other buildings.
Oh well. I guess my nodes are not connected this evening...


I admit, I thought it was something new aswell... I just didn't want to write a reply asking if it was for real haha..
Guess this copyright thingy is going to continue for a while  :D
Learning history and science, wait,
Knowing that, will that put food on my plate?
Yeah, can I walk into McDonald's, into the counter,
And tell them you can make limestone from gunpowder,
Will they give me a cheeseburger if I know that shit?

cyphyr

hehe

If you have lightwave then you can  :)

Legoizer

Its a little old (can you tell from the web page lol) and it may not even work on modern LW setups but it dose at least exist ;)

Richard
www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
/|\

Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
i7 5930K @3.5Ghz, 32Gb (TG4 benchmark 13.44)

cyphyr

Quote from: calico on September 03, 2009, 06:33:25 pm
.... based upon the nature of Terragen's nodal system.  It's isn't algorithms and I don't believe a court would uphold someone's complaint that I copied someone else's concept in a nodal form.  If it does mean that, then it means most people using the product of Terragen could possibly be held liable by accident.  That's not so good for business.


You've just made my point perfectly, thank you :)

Richard
www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
/|\

Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
i7 5930K @3.5Ghz, 32Gb (TG4 benchmark 13.44)

Mandrake

I would recommend that you avoid, buying anything, if you feel that way, and endeavor to construct and with help from the forum, find your way, on your own.. This used to be a pure TG2 science forum, sadly, things are changing..

Zairyn Arsyn

calico: i was talking about the title of post (and cyphyr's), & not copyright
WARNING! WIZARDS! DO NOT PREDICT THE BEHAVIOR OF OTTERS UNLESS YOU OBEY BIG HAPPY TOES.

i7 2600k 3.4GHZ|G.skill 16GB 1600MHZ|Asus P8P67 EVO|Evga 770GTX 4GB|SB X-FI|Antec 750W
http://zlain81.deviantart.com/

Oshyan

Gentlemen, please. The value of a philosophical argument regarding copyright is limited. The law has its perspective, and the only way to truly find out what it would be is challenge it in court. If that's a concern for you, then you should avoid purchasing copyrighted products. I can assure you that Planetside makes no claim of copyright to any work produced with TG2, our liability for the works of the users of our software is exclaimed. If others claim copyright on their works created with TG2, we have no desire to dispute that. If anyone else has such a desire, they should take it up in court.

If in the end what all this is really about is the fear that you might accidentally reproduce a copyrighted work and then be sued over making it available, I don't think you have much to worry about. Practically speaking the possibility that you would ever run into this issue is so remote as to be essentially not worth talking about.

Even if it were likely that you would exactly duplicate a copyrighted work (which it's not), that's a far cry from having a lawsuit brought against you for it. Even large companies almost always begin any such legal action with simple cease and desist requests. Unless you fail to comply, you can generally remove yourself from liability by simply removing the offending material. In the highly unlikely event that it would go to court, there is still the necessity to prove the copyrightable nature of the work in question which, if it's as obvious as claimed, you should have no worry of defending against. Not to mention the possibility of demonstrating prior art.

All this is not to say, however, that anyone should bother crying wolf on someone's reasonable desire to modestly benefit financially from their time investment. Whether or not anyone's legal perspective on copyright is valid could be a subject of endless debate, the results of which are unlikely to change anyone's minds and is liable to just piss everyone involved off. The only way to truly settle such a matter is in court, which I think it's safe to say everyone involved in these *three* threads about this subject would like to avoid.

So let's leave it at that, shall we? ;D

- Oshyan

scott8933

Nothing new here. Years ago some users got busted by Onyx for selling trees created by Onyx Tree. The people on the Electric Image forum (where the controversy started) were a little outraged at first - but the owner himself came in to explain his position, very eloquently.

That basically Onyx exists solely to sell the tree generator. And to go and re-sell work derived from that essentially takes money directly from Onyx - even though there was plenty of creative intervention on the part of the tree creator himself.

Agree or not, their user license was pretty iron clad and the guy had to stop selling it.

But also, hearing it from Onyx's side helped a lot too - you could tell that the guy was really passionate about his work and not just out to just make the bottom line buck (Onyx isn't getting rich selling those plugins I'm sure). Simply protecting his entire life's work's revenue stream.


cyphyr

Excellent point and I agree entirely and thank you for compounding my point.

In the case you cite Onyx produce a product capable of a near infinite amount of permutations. Onyx wants to stop people using their product to make (in their case, trees, bushes, palms etc) that they could then sell on (or give away) thus depriving Onyx of a revenue stream. Fair enough.

NWDA on the other-hand are more akin to the gentlemen who is selling on Onyx derived trees and bushes. They have no more "created" their products than the trees and bushes were "created" by the chap selling Onyx trees. The only difference between the two scenarios is that Onyx has stated that you may not sell or distribute their output or tree files at all. Planetside makes no such stipulation.

In both cases, Onyx and Terragen, both products offer the user a near infinite variety of possibilities, these possibilities are already inherent in the program itself and are NOT created from outside the program (this will change when the SDK is released). No matter how hard you try you can not make a car in Onyx or a Julia set fractal in Terragen for example. If some one comes along after the SDK is released and makes a plugin that can introduce new math then they will have complete rights to define their own limitations and restrictions on usage and distribution.

I have no objection to NWDA selling presets and clip files, or anything else in fact :)

My issue is with their claim that they in some way own them, that they "created" them.
They do not and did not.
They, through hard work, diligence and deep understanding discovered them.
After one has discovered something one is free to decide what to do with that knowledge, to keep it secret, to give or sell it to others or to publish it. A free choice with no preference one way of the other.

Its a little like the DNA argument. Once the human genome was laid bare various medical companies started to say that they had rights to certain parts of the DNA. Most people believe this to be fundamentally wrong and although they may have a legal case they have no case from "natural philosophy" viewpoint.

Happy rendering

Richard
www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
/|\

Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
i7 5930K @3.5Ghz, 32Gb (TG4 benchmark 13.44)

neuspadrin

The way I see nwda is you are paying them for their understanding and time tinkering these settings for you, not the settings themselves.  I don't see them out there trying to trace down the smallest violations of their licenses, but they simply want to make a little money on the side by offering their high quality work to a more public audience. 

Using some of the arguments presented in here, I could argue planetside has no right to sell tg2 because they used xyz to program and compile the program!  All they did was know how to type code the specific way needed to make their program.  And thats not just planetside, you could argue any program like that. 

But thats not how it works.  Sure, all NWDA is selling is nodes.  And anyone could stumble on that exact combination of nodes (in theory), but what you are doing is honoring NWDA by giving them a little money to let you benefit from THEIR research and knowledge so that you can get stuff done faster and easier.  They offer both a commercial and hobbiest license because they know many of us have no intentions of making money off their product, but are willing to spend a little here and there in support of their efforts (I myself have bought a few packs, and I learned a lot and enjoy having them as an option while setting up a scene).

Basically its up to each programs license to determine how licensing should work for products derived from it.  Planetside doesn't mind users selling preset packs, so legally its perfectly ok for anyone to do that.  And because planetside doesn't mind, its up to NWDA to decide how their license works for their products.  Also these packs (from my point of view) arn't really for someone who knows what they are doing.  Its for people who are under a deadline to quickly grab a few packs and make the scene they need, and hobbiests who are interested in learning new concepts to apply to their work.

Sp34k

I have one thing to say......... I shouldn't have uploaded that file haha :D
Learning history and science, wait,
Knowing that, will that put food on my plate?
Yeah, can I walk into McDonald's, into the counter,
And tell them you can make limestone from gunpowder,
Will they give me a cheeseburger if I know that shit?