UK General Elections 2010. Which way did you vote.

Started by cyphyr, May 06, 2010, 11:10:41 am

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Which way did you vote?

Labour
0 (0%)
Conservative
1 (10%)
LibDem
5 (50%)
Other
1 (10%)
Did not vote
3 (30%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: May 08, 2010, 11:10:41 am

PG

Yeah I was just gonna say that, how exactly is the US a free nation when it's run by the free market (and it has been ever since Regan). You're not free, you're just run by a system you can't see, the power of numbers that the markets use to organise and predict consumer spending and investment was used by the neo-conservatives since Regan was in power and they've been using it in every administration since, bit because they want to control the world but because they wanted to free the world from bureaucracy by instilling what they saw as the indisputable logic of numbers.

This is why we see things like targets for waiting lists in hospitals given exact figures, targets for everything from arrest figures by police to the level of international conflicts in the world (which was agreed by the UN to be reduced by 6% by 2030. All of these targets have taken over the running of government from the politicians who actually have very little power now as everyone is motivated by hitting these targets, including those who you say are trying to destroy the system they created.

It is a kind of freedom I suppose, you have targets to hit but you're not told how you need to hit them, and otherwise you're free to do in your own time what you wish, but that's true in nearly all systems of governance. Still it's a peculiar kind of freedom, where you're only motivated by serving your own self interest, so long as you hit your targets everyone else be damned.

Still, think of the alternative. Control by governments, politicians, who believe they know what is best for us. But that's the choice, you're either told what to do and how to do it but are free to participate to any level you wish, or you are told exactly how much to do and given the freedom to do it how you wish, but are severely punished if you should fail, pushing a self interest on you to achieve no matter the cost.

If you want a more vivid image of what this really means, go back to the Vietnam war when this method was first being tested. GI's were given the "body count", to kill a set number of VC in a specific time but were given no framework on how to achieve this, threatened with disciplinary action if they failed most simply made up their tallies or even shot civilians just to hit their quota. The "Body Count" was created by a man called Alain Enthoven. He also later brought this to the medical establishments of the US and UK.

There have been a lot of different methods tried and tested to bring about spontaneous freedom to different parts of the world and so far all of them have been twisted and corrupted not by people, but by the system itself. Always seeking to improve it's maximum advantage but by doing so engaging questionable methods of control.

And if you think this is all an elaborate scheme to see the US as the all powerful force controlling the world, then just look at the man who invented the system. John Forbes Nash, a paranoid Schizophrenic who believed that he was part of a secret organisation who could stop a soviet invasion and that those around him who wore red ties were communist spies.
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

efflux

May 15, 2010, 09:15:48 am #31 Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 09:18:40 am by efflux
Quote from: PG on May 14, 2010, 07:46:59 am
There have been a lot of different methods tried and tested to bring about spontaneous freedom to different parts of the world and so far all of them have been twisted and corrupted not by people, but by the system itself. Always seeking to improve it's maximum advantage but by doing so engaging questionable methods of control.


This is why the US is the only country that can do anything to solve the present breakdown. Because it has a constitution to stop what you describe here. That constitution has been bypassed right back to when the Federal Reserve was created. There is a whole other issue about exactly who this constitution applies to but no need to get into that. The people in the US know hay have this constitution and all they need to do is claim it as the law.

My experience is that most people know absolutely nothing about the law or their rights in their own countries. I would say goodbye to those nations. They aren't going top be around very long.

Ask anyone what type of law jurisdiction their country has. The most basic question you could possibly ask them about their country and most people will not even know but a lot of them will know what the latest celebrity is up to.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
 --  Thomas Jefferson

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 -- Benjamin Franklin

People vote for safety rather than freedom and get neither. Politicians also vote for the safety of their cash flow from financial backers.

Seth

ask Switzerland if they are not free ^^ sorry to hear you really think only usa are free country. that only show nombrilistic view of geopolitic. i surely don't want my old free country to look like your free country. :)

PG

"Ask anyone what type of law jurisdiction their country has. The most basic question you could possibly ask them about their country and most people will not even know but a lot of them will know what the latest celebrity is up to."

same applies to the US mate :D
Personally I like our system in the UK, it's evolved over a thousand years, it evolved with the country and the people, it's not been created in a month by a bunch of aristocrats who think they know best for everyone else.
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

efflux

Yes, I agree about that, Switzerland is quite a free country. You will also notice it is not in the EU.

I talk about the US because it is a major power and capable of forcing the rest of the world to act but I would also say that the US is not very free anymore.

I am also not American but I recognise what America originally stood for. I come from Northern Ireland and I live in England.

efflux

It is true that the freedoms many people currently have around the world are due to the US. Many countries copied their system including Germany before the first world war. This is why the war was started. To destroy Germany. People escaped Europe to go to the US exactly because it was free.

efflux

There is another map somewhere which shows all the law jurisdictions but I can't find it. These are the common law countries. Supposed to not be ruled by corporate law.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Common_law_world.png

PG

Well there was also no money left in Europe anymore (sounds familiar) and they were told how free it was, when they got there it wasn't quite how they imagined it. Especially as most of them were forced to live in a 2 block area of Manhattan. Anyway how can the US possibly be considered free, civil rights didn't come in until 1964 and it could hardly have been said to be enforced at that time. Plus women didn't get the vote till 1913. Not that free. They were also one of the last countries to make slavery illegal
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

efflux

Yes, I agree that not everyone was free in the US but the constitution would facilitate that. In general the US was the most free country. It was the only country where people were free but not all of them. Their system (if adhered to) is the only system that can work. Things like slavery have existed all over the place and slavery in the US was backed by other countries such as Britain.

The US was the only country where individuals were sovereign. We are not sovereign individuals in the UK. The Queen is the sovereign. I sold a house a while back. It was protected by agreement with the queen to uphold the rights of her citizens under common law and my house was not registered at the land registry. No law says you have to do this. The Government now owns your house in the UK if it is registered with the land registry. This is just a government corporation. Same with your car. Do you have anything that says these are your property? Notice how you pay no capital gains on sales of these because they aren't yours. Did you register your children at birth? They are property of government. This is the marxist EU superstate.

Kadri

Quote from: efflux on May 15, 2010, 09:50:17 am
There is another map somewhere which shows all the law jurisdictions but I can't find it. These are the common law countries. Supposed to not be ruled by corporate law.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Common_law_world.png


This one ? Go to the " Common law legal systems in the present day " section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

efflux

May 15, 2010, 11:04:35 am #40 Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 11:11:51 am by efflux
Understanding that map is crucial. Many countries have civil law but this gets corrupted by being controlled by corporate law or other forms of power because this law is not truly created by the people. The corporate law or UCC or maritime or statute law (has many names) is the "Empire" law of commerce. You'll notice that is not mentioned on the map. It is not meant to be the law of the land of people not involved in commerce. It was the law of the sea because Empires were built on sea power hence why one name for it is maritime law. There are many examples of the distortion that people consent to. You car is called a vehicle because a vehicle is a commercial machine.

Common and civil law are all eroded away by UCC law. Common law gave the people God given rights of freedom from slavery and this was judged by the people, possibly not very well still but it was a law of the people. It came from Christianity but it doesn't matter about the religion. It is just basic rights of freedom. You either have these and are free, you use the corporate law to give yourself freedom or you are simply property of a corporation. Nobody should need to use the law to get freedom it should be inherent at birth.

Seth


efflux

May 15, 2010, 08:12:13 pm #42 Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 08:14:48 pm by efflux
Well yes, unfortunately the US has lost freedoms.

Wikipedia is also a propogandapedia these days:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemption_movement

Yes, it's a a conspiracy this idea of sovereign individuals. Freedom is an absolute conspiracy. Interesting that they should mention the Wizard of Oz here. Dorothy's slippers were silver in the original book and she travelled the "yellow brick" road to find the Wizard Of .oz who was a old guy behind a curtain.



Keep watching Fox news or the BBC or whatever your local propaganda channel is. I have never owned a TV in my life.

efflux

The inhabitants of the emerald city were forced to wear green coloured spectacles but it was all an illusion.




Seth

Quote from: efflux on May 15, 2010, 08:12:13 pm


Wikipedia is also a propogandapedia these days





I don't like wikipedia, but as you use it for your argumentation, I did the same. :)
I don't see the point in not owning a TV. That doesn't make people more intelligent, that just keep them away of something that can put some fun sometimes. That also means you never saw some great documentaries and have no idea of what the majority of people do when they are at home.
oh not mentionning the fact that it must be sometimes a pain in the ass to keep an eye on political meetings "live" :)
even in France we do follow UK election and had some live debate of the candidates.