To U.S.A. People Who Can Vote

[PG]

lol. love the bureaucracy and surrealism ones.

[Will]

and a bit less mature humor, though its true, it is the best gif ever.

http://megasizzle.com/funny/the-funniest-animated-gif-ever11/

[JimB]

Show me some hard solid evidence that a completely free market leads to a wealthier nation, where every citizen ends up wealthy? Don't come back with examples of complete government market control creating poverty.

I have an example of a completely de-regulated free market creating abject poverty and hardship for the masses, and an elite super-rich who can flout the rule of law; Russia.

A much older and surprising example is Ancient Rome, which led to a number of secessions by the masses from the city.

Ever read Dickens?

[rcallicotte]

JimB has all very good points.

@nvseal - Yes, sort of.  The reasons those two countries have such a divide between the poor and the rich (aka - no middle class) has to do with the government looking out only for the wealthy.

Calico, are you saying that the reason for Mexico's and Guatemalas' poor economies is the lack of regulation?

[nvseal]

That's a misconception right there. You will never have a nation where "every citizen ends up wealthy." And for that matter you will never have a free market that doesn't have ups and downs. Good times and bad times are part of the natural fluctuation caused by rising and dropping prices. Free capitalism doesn't pretend to create absolute wealth for EVERYONE -- not everyone is going to get a million dollar pay check. But capitalism does lift everyone up with it. Free capitalism means opportunity. But because of human nature, there will always be people who don't have what other people have because they don't want to work for it – even if you lay the opportunity at their feet. If you are looking for an economic system were everyone is equally wealthy then you are looking for a fantasy. Prices (and wages) are incentives. The more you are worth the more you are paid. That is the reason CEOs are paid so much. The difference between a good CEO and bad CEO could mean billions of dollars. A good example would be Jack Welch. He became the CEO of General Electric in 1981 when the company was worth $14 billion. After 20 years of decision making he had turned the company around and GE was worth nearly $500 billion. If Jack Welch had been paid one-half of one percent of the increased value he created, his compensation would have been nearly $2.5 billion dollars. He was actually paid a couple hundred million. If we want to talk about what someone is worth, I'd say GE got a pretty good deal on that one. There is no reason to suggest the FedEx man should paid at the same level.

It is a bit difficult to find a country where the government has never been involved, but a great example would be the United States itself. I am assuming you are talking about the current Russia As far as Russia goes I would hardly the call the situation in Russia ripe for growth (corrupt power hungry government). And Calico, you just said the problem is not government under regulation but government corruption. We seem to keep arriving at this common denominator. There is a big difference between government intrusion into the economy and the lack of a just rule of law. Moreover the comparison isn't really valid. We can't take a country like Mexico which suffers under a corrupt government, lacks a well educated population, and lacks sufficient industrial infrastructure to conclude that less economic regulation will hurt the United States (not to mention the culture factors).

[JimB]

I am assuming you are talking about the current Russia As far as Russia goes I would hardly the call the situation in Russia ripe for growth (corrupt power hungry government). And Calico, you just said the problem is not government under regulation but government corruption. We seem to keep arriving at this common denominator. There is a big difference between government intrusion into the economy and the lack of a just rule of law. Moreover the comparison isn't really valid. We can't take a country like Mexico which suffers under a corrupt government, lacks a well educated population, and lacks sufficient industrial infrastructure to conclude that less economic regulation will hurt the United States (not to mention the culture factors).

I'm talking about the democratic Russia when national industries were distributed amongst the population in the form of corporate shares and free market economy (the Neo-Conservative idealist's dream, which they did seem to create in this event), not the current Russia with a nationalistic leadership.

[rcallicotte]

@nvseal - the reason all of those things are true for Mexico and Guatemala and Haiti (see this - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7717756.stm) is the lack of government intervention in the lives of the wealthy. 

Sometimes it's necessary to curtail the corrupt.  The alternative is anarchy, which is what we'll have if we keep allowing the government to bail out wealthy bankers, keep allowing businesses to send our jobs overseas and keep spilling blood for oil. 

It calls into question everyone who defends the less than 3% of our population who are causing many of these problems. 

So...the question isn't about government, since we believe in a Free America.

[PG]

...so you're saying Mexicos problems are because of a lack of government intervention and our problems are because we have government intervention?

[rcallicotte]

It's because the government (any government) favors the wealthy that any have problems.  Watch the governments who squash the people by favoring the wealthy's interests before everyone else and you'll have what we see in many so-called 3rd world countries.  It's just a fact.

Found some interesting quotes from Jefferson -

"Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government." - Thomas Jefferson

"Delay is preferable to error." - Thomas Jefferson

"Every generation needs a new revolution." - Thomas Jefferson

"Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor." - Thomas Jefferson

"Force is the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism." - Thomas Jefferson

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson

"I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." - Thomas Jefferson

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

"Information is the currency of democracy." - Thomas Jefferson

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world." - Thomas Jefferson

"It is more dangerous that even a guilty person should be punished without the forms of law than that he should escape." - Thomas Jefferson

"It takes time to persuade men to do even what is for their own good." - Thomas Jefferson

"Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it." - Thomas Jefferson

"That government is the strongest of which every man feels himself a part." - Thomas Jefferson

"The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force." - Thomas Jefferson

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses." - Thomas Jefferson

"We did not raise armies for glory or for conquest." - Thomas Jefferson

"Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence." - Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority." - Thomas Jefferson

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson

[matrix2003]

Found some interesting quotes from Star Wars "with some editing of course" -

"This will be a day long remembered. It has seen the end of Bush, and will soon see the end of the rebellion."

...and on Obama -  "The Force is strong with this one."

The take on Hillary -  "I suggest a new strategy, R2. Let the newbee win."

Palin on her voyage back to Alaska -  "You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon? ... It's the ship that made the Wassilla run in less than 12 parsecs, you betcha."

Obama to Bill Clinton -  "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master."

DNC to Joe Lieberman -  "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

What should the US do about the economy -  "Use the Force, Luke."

What should we do about the loss of freedom under the Bush administration -  "You don't need to see his identification ... These aren't the droids you're looking for ... He can go about his business ... Move along."

Why Obi-won-Obama is now in charge -  "Help me Obi-Won Obama. You're my only hope."

The Clinton's even threatened in private  -  "Watch your mouth kid, or you'll find yourself floating home."

Karl Rove to George Bush -  "Evacuate in our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."

John McCain after the election -  "If this is a consular ship, where is the ambassador? — Commander, tear this ship apart until you've found those plans. And bring me the passengers, I want them alive!"

What McCain told his staff about trashing Palin's record in public  -  "Into the garbage chute, flyboy!"

Obama was briefed on red vs. blue states -  "This is Red 5, I'm going in."

Palin, wearing a towel, gets out of the shower and says to her husband -  "Boring conversation anyway. Luke, we're gonna have company!"

When asked about Africa being a continent, she replied - "I'm a member of the Imperial Senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan."

and finally.  What the American people said to Obama -


"You're all clear, kid! Now let's blow this thing and go home!"

[PG]

It's not a fact calico, it's an idea.

[rcallicotte]

@PG - No, it's wisdom.

@matrix - pretty funny.

[PG]

yeah right, more like marxism. There is no evidence to support that all governments support the wealthy and certainly not the case that this will lead the country into a third world state. The reason that certain governments favour the wealthy is because the believe in trickle down theory as most western economists do. What few have managed to factor in is that philosophical ideas like this only work in one set of circumstances and another method will work in another circumstance. Trickle down theory works, as I've said many times, when the ecomomy is strong. There are about a billion statistics that could prove that. Trickle theory doesn't work when the economy is weak and I've already demonstrated that. What you and many world leaders fail to grasp is that one theory doesn't work all the time. If you push for trickle theory when the economy is weak you'll just drive the economy further into the ground unless you totally free the market and even then the community costs of education and the like have to be met and a totally free market makes it nearly impossible for the government to justifiably raise taxes because it will raise inflation which the government cannot control under a free market. If you push for government regulation then you'll either stagnate the market within a decade (i.e. Russia 1998) or you'll try to structure the economy to a point where you're steering it into a brick wall. (i.e. the Soviet Union.)

[JimB]

Trickle down theory is all well and good, but how about trickle out to another country theory, which seems to be more and more common regardless of a strong or weak economy in both services and manufacturing?

[PG]

Well it depends, I assume you mean economic aid. It's more of a political problem than an economic one, the concequences are lumped on the economy though
Thing is, we can take care of ourselves in these economic times but countries like Ethiopia or Eritrea can't. If we leave them to fend for themselves in an economic struggle that we put them in then there'd be a moral uproar. Personally I disagree with economic aid and charity organisations. I think it's pointless spending £200 on a well that's the size of a large dog. They waste half of it dancing in front of the cameras, celebrating the fact that they have clean water for the next 20 minutes. We could've put all the £200s together and funded research into desalination plants. We've got entire oceans that can be filtered into drinking water.