What happened in Germany

[neuspadrin]

15 years ago Japan had a quake.

Just couple of years ago China had a quake.

Many people died in Japan and China but the people there didn't do all those looting and fighting and throwing corpses on the street in protest, like what Haitians are doing.

And both China and Japan are considered much more advanced and have the resources for disaster relief of their own country.

The Haitians ain't gonna thank you just because you care. Instead, they are angry at you because you guys aren't giving them GOOD FOOD !

There have been too many of these reports, of quake victims lining up to get food, took a bite and threw it away, and then they start a loud protest, scaring away the very people who went to Haiti to help the quake victims.

I haven't seen any or these "too many" reports.  Link?

[Kadri]

Guys , don't bother to change his mind. He says basically " There are some bad guys , thus all Haitians should die ! "

He should be happy that this forum people here are nice . In another forum there would be many nasty posts until now.

I am out of here !

Kadri.

[JimB]

At least it's not about some celebrity. I feel bad about Haiti. For decades the US has supported self-serving rulers there. Now that the capital has become a ruin, they have no resources to help themselves.

That is another thing that I do not understand --- What has US got to do with the quake in Haiti?

Even if US is guilty of supporting self-serving dictators in Haiti that still doesn't dissolve the responsibility of Haitian themselves of being totally useless in determining their own destiny.

Look at the looting and the fighting and the displaying of corpses and the world knows that the Haitians don't deserve any help at all.

15 years ago Japan had a quake.

Just couple of years ago China had a quake.

Many people died in Japan and China but the people there didn't do all those looting and fighting and throwing corpses on the street in protest, like what Haitians are doing.

Disgusting ... that is the word I reserve for Haiti.

New Orleans ring a bell? The Superdome?

[penang]

Sure, the United States of America is responsible for every single thing that is happening all around the world.

Wealthier countries do have an obligation to help, and that arises from the fundamental understanding of mercy and empathy

Sorry, you are deluding yourself.

The obligation and responsibility rests on oneself. Whether that entity is a person or a nation, if that entity doesn't want to help itself, it's time to let it rot.

The first time the "Save the Hungry African Children" campaign came out, I pitched in. It was horrendous to see children starved to death.

Then the same "Save the Hungry African Children" campaign happen every year, and I got to thinking ... what happened?

Then I really look at what happened ... and find out the ugly truth

Many African farmers faced the serious drought the first year. Their crops were destroyed and many died of starvation.

The world pitched in, help feed them.

So the farmers and their family moved into areas where they can get free food.

Next year, rain came.

But the farmers and their families still stay inside the "free food area".

Instead of going back to their farms to farm, they stay.

Why?

Why not?

Why does one have to work hard to farm for food when one can just sit there, do nothing, and get feed?

So the problem is this --- We want to help them, and we create NEW PROBLEMS.

New problems like DEPENDENCIES --- instead of like before, those African farmers work their farm to grow crops, now they don't do that anymore. They just live in the "free food area" and expect food to be given to them, FREE !

And that brings out yet another problem --- POPULATION INCREASE !

Yes.

Without having to work at their farm, without having to toil for their crops, the farmers have extra free time and use that extra time to have more "loving relationship" with their wives.

Results? MORE BABIES !

By the time the next drought came, sure enough, more babies mean more mouths to feed, and SOME BABIES die of hunger.

And again, the news papers, the tee vees, showing us all the footage of skinny little babies, hungry babies, babies died of starvation and malnutrition.

You need to know one basic fact --- and that is, that piece of land in that place can only feed so many people. Let's say 10 Million. More than that number of people, food will be scarce.

The way we help them is to create the opportunities for the population figures to BLOOM, to way more than 10 Million.

Which means, even in the time where there are rain, even if the farmers all go back to their farm to plant and take care of their crops, FOOD WILL STILL BE NOT ENOUGH, and STARVATION WILL SET IN !

So it becomes a vicious spiral.

The more people they have, the more starvation. The more starvation, the more aids pouring in. And that brings out even more chance to make even more new babies, which goes back to the beginning --- more people they have, more starvation.

When will this end?

Saying something like "wealthier nations have the obligation to help" does sound nice, but in practical, it will create MORE problems, for both the poorer nations, and their wealthier counterparts.

If the Haitians (the majority) don't want to help themselves, let them be.

Just leave them to sort out their own problems for themselves.

They way the Haitians are treating the world community as if we owe them something.

That we ***MUST*** help them.

Really?

In this world nobody owes anybody anything !

Certainly the world owes Haiti NOTHING !

If they do not want to help themselves, let them rot.

I for one, will not care !

[penang]

At least it's not about some celebrity. I feel bad about Haiti. For decades the US has supported self-serving rulers there. Now that the capital has become a ruin, they have no resources to help themselves.

That is another thing that I do not understand --- What has US got to do with the quake in Haiti?

Even if US is guilty of supporting self-serving dictators in Haiti that still doesn't dissolve the responsibility of Haitian themselves of being totally useless in determining their own destiny.

Look at the looting and the fighting and the displaying of corpses and the world knows that the Haitians don't deserve any help at all.

15 years ago Japan had a quake.

Just couple of years ago China had a quake.

Many people died in Japan and China but the people there didn't do all those looting and fighting and throwing corpses on the street in protest, like what Haitians are doing.

Disgusting ... that is the word I reserve for Haiti.

New Orleans ring a bell? The Superdome?

Thank you for bringing that up.

When the New Orleans thing happened, did Haiti help?

Please don't tell me that "Haiti is too poor to help".

[Henry Blewer]

When I was in trouble and needed help. I got help for people I did not know, and do not know. Now I am not making fantastic money, but I am able to have food, shelter, and pursue the interests I enjoy. I am able to help others, which is really something I enjoy.
How many more are there who deserve the same chance? That is why it makes sense to help.

[penang]

Guys , don't bother to change his mind. He says basically " There are some bad guys , thus all Haitians should die ! "

Kadri.

Some bad guys ?

You call the throngs of looters "some" ?

[penang]

When I was in trouble and needed help. I got help for people I did not know, and do not know. Now I am not making fantastic money, but I am able to have food, shelter, and pursue the interests I enjoy. I am able to help others, which is really something I enjoy.
How many more are there who deserve the same chance? That is why it makes sense to help.

I have no problem helping people.

The prerequisite is they must also help themselves.

I have a lot of problem helping people who do not want to help themselves.

[penang]

15 years ago Japan had a quake.

Just couple of years ago China had a quake.

Many people died in Japan and China but the people there didn't do all those looting and fighting and throwing corpses on the street in protest, like what Haitians are doing.

And both China and Japan are considered much more advanced and have the resources for disaster relief of their own country.

So basically you are saying something like --- "Japan and China don't deserve any help because they are advanced enough and have enough resources to help themselves ... while in Haiti, they are dirt poor, and we must help"

Is that what you are saying?

Which means, if some really horrendous disaster strike Germany or England or the United States, no one should help out, right?

After all, Germany, the U.S. or England are advanced and have plenty of resources, right?

Will you still go help some "dirt poor" people even if they DO NOT want to help themselves?

[Jack]

Guys , don't bother to change his mind. He says basically " There are some bad guys , thus all Haitians should die ! "

Kadri.

Some bad guys ?

You call the throngs of looters "some" ?

in a disaster their will always be looters thats just part of society it happened with the Victoria bush fires last year and the power outage in Newyork. you seem to think all Haitians are the same.

[penang]

Guys , don't bother to change his mind. He says basically " There are some bad guys , thus all Haitians should die ! "

Kadri.

Some bad guys ?

You call the throngs of looters "some" ?

in a disaster their will always be looters thats just part of society it happened with the Victoria bush fires last year and the power outage in Newyork. you seem to think all Haitians are the same.

Yes, in any disaster there always be some looters.

Note the word: Some

But in Haiti, it's not some, it's much more than some.

And one more thing: Do not put words into my mouth.

I never say "All Haitians are the same". You are the one who say that.

All I say is, if the Haitians do not want to help themselves, let them rot.

[Gannaingh]

Penang, for somebody who thinks they are the authority on all things Haiti you sure haven't shown us any proof to back your claims that there are a bunch of looters there. Who are you (or any of us for that matter) to judge the Haitian people? You have no right to further degrade those poor people who have lost everything that they have by saying that they deserve to rot. You say that we are putting words into your mouth, but I beg to differ. We have no need to; your words speak loud and clear as to what type of person you are.

No, there are not written laws than proclaim that the rich must help the poor in their time of need. However, basic human decency (which you appear to be lacking) demands that you spare what you can to help those less fortunate than you. People do not help the poor because they are required to; they help them because they sympathize and pity those people who have lost so much, and by donating their time or money will hopefully be able to help alleviate their pain and suffering in some measure.

DO NOT Dodge This Question: How would you feel is you were in a major earthquake? If all the houses, schools, building; your whole life came crashing down around you?  But you have a neighbor that lives not very far away. They have a big house, many fancy electronic toys, money, and the equipment necessary to dig to dig your family out from under a huge pile of rubble. Unfortunately for you, they believe that they should only help you save your family after you have already cleared the rubble yourself. Too bad you are just one poor man and have no way to do so. So they decide that you are not worth helping and that they would be better off leaving you to rot. How would you feel if that was you?

[Jack]

Guys , don't bother to change his mind. He says basically " There are some bad guys , thus all Haitians should die ! "

Kadri.

Some bad guys ?

You call the throngs of looters "some" ?

in a disaster their will always be looters thats just part of society it happened with the Victoria bush fires last year and the power outage in Newyork. you seem to think all Haitians are the same.

Yes, in any disaster there always be some looters.

Note the word: Some

But in Haiti, it's not some, it's much more than some.

And one more thing: Do not put words into my mouth.

I never say "All Haitians are the same". You are the one who say that.

All I say is, if the Haitians do not want to help themselves, let them rot.

im not putting words into your mouth it is what you are implying.

[zionner]

Alright, I tried to stay clear of this thread, as I tend to get a little angry when I join these sort of debates (Sadly, as I would love to take part in these more often), however I shall make an exception and join this specific case. But I have one indisputable reason why ALL the western countries have a responsibility to help Haiti...

Their current debt, which is now ALL owed to the Inter-American Development Bank, is aprox 800 Million $, and on top of this, all debt that Haiti had was cancelled in september last year, except from the debt mentioned above!

What does that tell you?

Now, normally it would be fair enough to say "Yeah, they borrowed money, they should pay it back"


But they havepayed that money back! All that debt you see there is interest! The governments of our countries are so greedy, that they force poor countries such as Haiti to pay huge sums of money, which they could be spending on infastructure.

Now, thats just the start of it, because since Haiti is so poor...the interest that they are charged is MORE than they can pay back per annum, and therefore, they are fighting a loosing battle against extortionate interest rates, which are set by the US.

This is why we need to help them...because they are forced to pay huge sums of money to us...which they could have spent on better infastructure (infastructure that may have had a chance to stay standing after that earthquake).

So... fair enough if you really want to be ignorant enough to believe that those people dont "deserve" our help...then be my guest... Dont expect ANYONE to agree with you, and more importantly, dont you DARE say something like "Will you still go help some "dirt poor" people even if they DO NOT want to help themselves?" That has to be one of the most selfish things I've heard someone say, or at least in a long time.

Edit:

Source for info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti
Also, I just want to make it clear, even though I did highlight that the Inter-American Development Bank is the only banks still with debts from Haiti, I'm not trying to specificly blame the US, everyone that held debts against them are to blame.

[Seth]

May I bring some memory back to you Penang ?
You know that, of course, USA helped Haiti to get rid of Aristide (after he's been elected) and supported milicia in Haiti  to "clean" the people that helped Aristide to win the election (that means kill people). So if you come in a country and help them to chose who lead it, you have the responsability to help them afterward.