Steve Jobs 1955-2011 RIP

Started by TheBadger, October 05, 2011, 08:12:52 pm

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Seth

and as I said in my previous post

QuoteRIP Steve Jobs

cyphyr

October 10, 2011, 08:43:43 am #16 Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 08:48:40 am by cyphyr
Much of the "design" that went into making Apple products so iconic did not come from Steve Jobs but from Jonathan Ive.
He created the look we know today. The functionality came from what Steve Jobs wanted but the cool designs and I think a lot of the interface useability came from Jonathyan.
:)
Richard

Quote from: Apple Wikki
Jonathan "Jony" Ive, CBE (born February 1967) is an English designer and the Senior Vice President of Industrial Design at Apple Inc. He is the leading designer and conceptual mind behind the iMac, titanium and aluminum PowerBook G4, G4 Cube, MacBook, unibody MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, iPod, iPhone, and iPad.
www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
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DutchDimension

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am
Absolutely !!! but I don't worship the brand's boss for that.


Great. Neither do I. There's a difference between worship and respecting, or admiring. As I hinted at before, during my years as an Apple user I've been the target of many more fanboy attacks from the opposite camp (for lack of a better word) than when I was a Windows user. So please stop perpetuating the myth that this is an Apple phenomenon only.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am
35, thank you.
want to patronize me, maybe ?


I'm sorry, but now you know how it feels to be on the receiving end. Maybe next time refrain from instigating and we'll all get along swimmingly. :)

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am
come on and be honest about that ! Apple has been forced to produced this document.


And so they should. And they are taking good action. But what would you rather that happened? That Apple, Sony, Microsoft, Amazon.com, Nike, all companies with vested interests pull out entirely? Yanking millions of jobs away from the Chinese? How will that help the situation? It won't. The fact is that China is going through a process that the so called 1st world countries (I hate that term) have already gone through by and large. And us Westerners have gladly taken advantage of that situation for decades because we're addicted to cheap! The Chinese government certainly isn't putting all their weight behind resolving the situation either because it allows them to build up their economy and status as a world dominating power. It's a problem that cannot be laid at the feet of one company. It's much more complicated than that. To claim otherwise while typing on, wearing, or otherwise consuming a 'Made in China' product is nothing short of hypocrisy.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am
and even then, in response to the suicides, workers were forced to sign a legally binding document guaranteeing that they would not kill themselves...


From my understanding that was to waive any rights to financial compensation. Morally questionable though it might be, you'll find that's a clause found in pretty much any life-insurance policy. Moreover, this is Foxconn, not Apple's doing.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am
In 2011 Apple admitted that its child labor practices in China had worsened. Not great news I guess.


And in response Apple have intensified their efforts to do something about it.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am
I could have done that, yes.
but I am not into this morale thing...


Not a personality trait to be proud of.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am

you disagree with my opinion, that is okay for me.
just try not to patronize me.


Simple, don't write bigoted posts if you don't like to be treated in kind.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am

and yes, I do think that a majority of the products are iCrap (sorry)
iTunes is just bad to me, and for example if you want to upload some music from my computer on your iPod, you can't because I don't have iTunes. but if I want to upload music from your mac on my SONY, i can because it is just USB...
Same for the iPad2 : come on !!! no USB ?! at this price ???


Erhm... the ports on iPads, iPhones and iPods are all USB. And personally I don't see the how uploading to a media device is worse through iTunes than say Explorer. In fact, there is myriad of advantages attached to organizing one's personal media through iTunes that you as a Windows user are probably not aware of. Automated backups of content and device state, in-program control of firmware updates, organizing and archiving of media all in one place, automated inclusion of mobile purchases into the user's source media library and vice versa, adherence to the Unix folder structure (which introduces it's own set of advantages in the greater scope of the Operating System), automated synchronization of all media across all devices, automatically downloading of cover art, browsing for and buying of media, re-downloading of purchases whenever required, etc. All in one application. Mighty convenient I think. Frankly, the thought of doing it any other way horrifies me. But hey... each to their own.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 07:57:27 am
I say, FAIL.


35? Honestly?


Cypher: Definitely, Jonathan Ive certainly deserves a lot of praise! Though you may be surprised how much Jobs was involved in the design process. Even from a very early stage onward, all the way back to the first Apple 2 cases. This wiki article about the Apple Industrial Design Group makes for fascinating reading.

Seth

October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am #18 Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 10:38:28 am by Seth
can you explain me how I can plug in my external hard drive or usb key in an iPad ? :)

what you don't seem to understand, or acting as you don't understand is that the thing I criticize is the way to make people believe Steve Jobs was a flawless genius, that chenge our lives as nobody did before ! and that is bullshit !
when Bill Gates will die, people will say exactly the same of him...
I do think Wosniak was much more important as a creator than Steve Jobs.
I do think he was nothing else than a good business man.
I do think we can say that every company using cheap, underage, exploited people to build their stuff are indeed responsible. It is too easy to say it is the chinese gvt.
Your morale might be as twisted as mine from what i read. (money for a sucide...)
You brought the windows vs Mac subject. I won't defend Microsoft, they are just as bad company as Apple with all their monopole wars.


oh and the last quote (me say, FAIL), you saw that I edited it before you quoted it as i found it offensive and pueril  ;)

anyway... we won't agree on this subject I guess

you think he was a genius and I think he was a business man.
you think Apple products are better than others and I don't.
you think it is the China's gvt that is responsible and I say it the companies that use the people that are responsible.
you think your morale is higher than mine and i think it is just a matter of point of view.
you think i should keep my mouth shut because... well i don't really know why... because you disagree with me ?

As for the getting along swimmingly... I've been in here for the last 4 years and it seems everything went pretty well so far  ;D



edit : and as a friend of mine just sent me that, I'll share this with you



Tangled-Universe

October 10, 2011, 10:38:28 am #19 Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 10:40:31 am by Tangled-Universe
Quote from: DutchDimension on October 10, 2011, 09:26:30 am
...
And us Westerners have gladly taken advantage of that situation for decades because we're addicted to cheap!
...


I think with "we" you mean the manufacturers/companies? Not us consumers, because we're being taken not so gently in the ass for say 20 years by now because of this capitalistic business model.
I'm pretty sure you can produce whatever product here Europe or US, ask the same price for it and still make some money.
It won't be as much as when you produce it abroad in, say China, but still.
But capitalism/share holders only allows one thing: more profits than last year.

Regardless whatever company it is, it is the underlying mechanism of capitalism which creates these awful situations.
All superbig producers of consumer products are guilty for these practices.
I don't believe any company is more or less guilty than another.

US and European government should add extra tax on the profits of these big companies when their profit is generated by selling products in US/EU which is made dirt cheap in China and decrease tax if you produce within US/EU. (they should add tax on any financial transaction on the stock market anyway, if it is not only for thieves like Goldman Sachs who earn hundreds of millions a month by High Frequency Trading, but that's another discussion).
The Chinese government indeed aids in making this possible by giving the companies a lot of room in paying wages/taxes/etc.
This way you can level out the great advantages of producing cheap in China with all the awful side-effects and create more jobs and economic growth in the US/EU.

Regardless of whether this idea is great or simply sucks, the problem is that the lobby of these big multinationals is so head-deep into the asses of the politicians that the result is that intensive changes like these or any other type will NEVER ever occur.

Cheers,
Martin

(OTOH and something totally different; yes China is becoming a superpower, but they will face similar problems like us, but a lot quicker.
For example, within 20-30 years a vast part of the current population has aged past working age and a social security system needs to be designed to support the elderly. The scale of this aging-problem will be much bigger than say here in The Netherlands where elderly are draining money because of healthcare, retirement and additional costs. In China none of these systems exist yet so they are extremely behind. Their economic growth is staggering, but their future problems grow a lot quicker if you'd ask me.
Given China's socialistic history, not, I don't see a that much flourishing future as many do.
They will get their problems as well, but bigger and much faster, since their demand for food and resources will become really huge.

Most negative scenario is that our world economics, distribution of resources and availability of food do not allow for billions of people with the same level of wealth. I guess many people know what happens when threats are becoming that big...)

DutchDimension

October 10, 2011, 10:50:01 am #20 Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 10:56:58 am by DutchDimension
Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
can you explain me how I can plug in my external hard drive or usb key in an iPad ? :)


A separate stand-alone external HD? I fail to see the benefit of that to be honest. But feel free to educate me. If it can do more than the iTunes approach that I talked about, I'll be impressed.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
what you don't seem to understand, or acting as you don't understand is that the thing I criticize is the way to make people believe Steve Jobs was a flawless genius, that chenge our lives as nobody did before ! and that is bullshit !


Fact is, he did change your live. One could cast significant doubts as to whether we'd be having this debate at all if it wasn't for Apple.
No one says the man was flawless. I don't know where you got that from. Maybe you got blinded by the recent spur of condolences. In a time of mourning it is common courtesy to praise said person.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
Your morale might be as twisted as mine from what i read. (money for a sucide...)


I'm not sure you entirely understood my post.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
You brought the windows vs Mac subject. I won't defend Microsoft, they are just as bad company as Apple with all their monopole wars.


Are you a Linux user then? What other OS are you running then on your PC? My raising of Windows served only to differentiate between Mac users and non Mac users in order to make a point.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
oh and the last quote (me say, FAIL), you saw that I edited it before you quoted it as i found it offensive and pueril  ;)


In which case, consider my response to it retracted.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
you think Apple products are better than others and I don't..


I think they are better for me and my family. I'm not so foolish as to claim they are better solutions for everybody. I hope you understand the difference.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
you think it is the China's gvt that is responsible and I say it the companies that use the people that are responsible.


Incorrect. I said I find the Chinese government is *also* responsible. As well as the companies who have their products built there. As well as the end consumer who buys said products. Global economics is an incredibly difficult subject and we, each of us, can only do what little we can, and hope the situation will eventually evolve into something better.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
you think your morale is higher than mine and i think it is just a matter of point of view.


In essence you said you don't care about having morals. I find that unfortunate. How else do you want me to interpret that? I find you a bit confusing here.

Quote from: Seth on October 10, 2011, 10:11:22 am
you think i should keep my mouth shut because... well i don't really know why... because you disagree with me ?


Again, incorrect. But I am a firm believer of the saying: "If you haven't got anything good to say, don't say anything at all unless you are asked to do so".



Tangled-Universe: Agreed. No argument there.

Seth

As I said, we won't agree here :)
it is always the same argument pros vs antis...
as for Vue vs TG2, Maya vs 3DSMAX, etc...
let us agree that we disagree and we shall be fine ;D

FrankB

Hi Franck, the trouble is that you have mixed your opinion with a few statements that are over-generalizations and some that can only insult people who make different buying decisons. I think DutchDimension had a point over you in that this was a memorial post and you started laying out your personal grudge against Apple products, which wasnt exactly the most sensible thing to do.
Anyway, let's move on. Even facts can be looked at from multiple angles so that we dont have to struggle to agree on everything (as far as I am concerned).

regards
Frank

DutchDimension

I think we've all said what needed to be said. No hard feelings, so I'm more than happy to move on and get back to one passion we all share. Terragen!  :)

Seth


Seth

Quote from: FrankB on October 10, 2011, 11:46:21 am
Hi Franck, the trouble is that you have mixed your opinion with a few statements that are over-generalizations and some that can only insult people who make different buying decisons.


you should read again my post Frank.
I didn't insult anyone.
my only statement that could have been misunderstand was about the fanboys. ;)
anyway, as you said, let's move on ;D

TheBadger

Quoteyou should read again my post Frank.
I didn't insult anyone


Actually I felt a little attacked by your initial posts. But I am rather pleased by the ensuing debate and discussion. Steve Jobs is relevant, current, and worthy of discussion. If there had been no disagreement there could be no discussion, and as I said, Jobs is worthy of discussion.
But in the end, to the victor must go the spoils, and hands down DutchDimension has won this debate. I say this not because I am a Mac user (I am) but because his arguments were well thought out and well represented.

Seth, your arguments while containing valid points, seemed over emotional and without Reason. For example you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide. With a caption Paraphrasing a quote usually attributed to Joseph Stalin- ("The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic"). A quote which was made in connection to the murder of millions and millions of innocent people. I know something about this. I studied at Lomonosov Moscow State University, My wife is Russian my Son is half Russian, I know where the bodies were dumped. And I find your insinuation that as an Apple user I am connected, in anyway, to what Stalin did in Russia, or what Mao did in China, (or colonialism for that matter (mostly european), or what their legacies are still doing, to be profoundly ignorant and deeply insulting! Why would you say these things? What sense could it make to you? Perhaps, as you said, you don't care about morality and therefor are able to say things that have no basis in reality and make no sense.

I am not rebuking you for fun. This is a forum supporting a technology used in art and communication. By your presence here I infer that you are, or want to be, an artist. Don't you know that an artists ability to think is seen in his work? "Think differently", You will find more personal success if you do, and your work will show it.

Anyway, I hold nothing against you, you are free and so am I. 

@everyone
Capitalism and freedom/liberty are inseparable, without the one the other falls, this happens in greater and lessor degrees. The truth of this statement is proven by history.

As to the question of corporations, one good thing, that I think everyone can agree on, is that there has never been on the earth a more efficient mechanism, as we see in the corporation, of dispensing goods and services to the population. The price can be negotiated.

The problems the world faces can all be fixed, and no one should have to give up any of their liberty to do it.

Peace

 
It has been eaten.

Tangled-Universe

Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 am

Seth, your arguments while containing valid points, seemed over emotional and without Reason. For example you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide. With a caption Paraphrasing a quote usually attributed to Joseph Stalin- ("The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic"). A quote which was made in connection to the murder of millions and millions of innocent people. I know something about this. I studied at Lomonosov Moscow State University, My wife is Russian my Son is half Russian, I know where the bodies were dumped. And I find your insinuation that as an Apple user I am connected, in anyway, to what Stalin did in Russia, or what Mao did in China, (or colonialism for that matter (mostly european), or what their legacies are still doing, to be profoundly ignorant and deeply insulting! Why would you say these things? What sense could it make to you? Perhaps, as you said, you don't care about morality and therefor are able to say things that have no basis in reality and make no sense.


Despite your proven background knowledge I think you mis-interpreted the image.
In my opinion this image clearly shows the fuzz of Steve Jobs passing away compared to the lack of fuzz about millions dying each year completely unnoticed.
The image clearly is sarcastic about everybody crying over Jobs while not caring about real problems in the world which are definitely worth crying for and deserve more attention.
But, us western people prefer to stay in our comfort zone and try to care as less as possible about other people's problem.
Hence that some people respond like some kind of era ended with Jobs passing away.
Hundreds of millions have bigger and far more important problems than their materialistic gadgets and such.
That's what this image is about.

I think drawing a conclusion which points toward Stalin and other crazy people from history is exaggerated and only based on the coincidential similarity of the image's text with historical quotes.

At least, that's how I look at it.

Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 am
Capitalism and freedom/liberty are inseparable, without the one the other falls, this happens in greater and lessor degrees. The truth of this statement is proven by history.

As to the question of corporations, one good thing, that I think everyone can agree on, is that there has never been on the earth a more efficient mechanism, as we see in the corporation, of dispensing goods and services to the population. The price can be negotiated.

The problems the world faces can all be fixed, and no one should have to give up any of their liberty to do it.

Peace



I would have agreed completely with you if it wasn't for the "The price can be negotiated" part.

In modern capitalism this is inheritently not true since multinationals have distanced themselves completely from every type of control for reasons I explained in my previous lengthy post. Shortly summarized as that economy dictates this world + politics and not politicians themselves who have the means to design laws to allow more control over (negotiations of) prices.

That said I think your critics on Franck as not thinking differently is not justified.
Admittedly the way Franck tends to formulate/put things isn't always the best and incentive, the thinking definitely is different and not mainstream.
Mainstream thinking is what current capitalism/globalism/politicians like the most as it is very easy to control people without critical thinking or people who don't think differently.
They like you dumb better.

Cheers,
Martin

Seth

Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 am
you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide



???
absolutely not !!!!
that is completely overstated !
I just wanted to say that millions of people are completely over reacting on Steve Jobs death whereas they don't give a shit about millions african kidz dying !!!
if you don't understand, that I am truely sorry for you !
That just explains why I don't place my morale in the same subject that you do.

and so much for your "think differently" !!!
differently of whom ?
using a Mac (or Apple products) is not anymore "thinking differently", it is "Think Fashionable" nowadays.  ::)
And I don't mean that for all the "true" users but for the millions walking around with all their iProducts, not even knowing how to use it properly... but just showing off their expensive gizmos.

As for my so-called art, thank you but I hope that I don't need to think like you do to express something through it.
because it seems that "Think Differently" means "Think Like I Do".
to be honest, you should know that through the ages the morale evolved and that a lot of artists were absolutely not morale people.
here is my website : www.7thcircle.fr
I never tell people i am an artist, i tell them i am a Terragen user.
have a look and tell me if you can see my ability to think. If you don't, that means I am not an artist, and I won't cry about that.
I know so many so called artists, doing ridiculous, meanless things that that won't be an insult.  :D

And I totally disagree about the capitalism/freedom statement.
Capitalism has absolutely nothing to do with freedom ! neither communism.
if you think so, just ask the millions slaves sold all around the world some centuries ago what they think about capitalism and freedom !!!   ;D

I didn't want to talk more about that, but it seems this discussion is not over yet.

Again, my post was not supposed to insult people, so if some of you felt insulted, I apology.
I apology because I didn't want to hurt them.
If I wanted to do that, my posts would have been a lot more offensive.
Believe me.



FrankB

Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 am
For example you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide. ...And I find your insinuation that as an Apple user I am connected, in anyway, to what Stalin did in Russia, or what Mao did in China, (or colonialism for that matter (mostly european), or what their legacies are still doing, to be profoundly ignorant and deeply insulting!


well now I think you might be over-interpreting this image. I too find it completely misplaced in this threat, (and I can't follow why he continues to provoke), but I think it doesn't go as far as relate to the Stalin thing - it merely seems to say "hello, it's just one individual that died, try spend more of your attention to millions of death-threatened others that still can be rescued", which I a message I think is ok to give. Is it sensible to post this in a memorial thread? Certainly not.

Regards,
Frank