Steve Jobs 1955-2011 RIP

Started by TheBadger, October 05, 2011, 08:12:52 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

TheBadger

QuoteI think you mis-interpreted the image

The image is a montage. What it says from right to left is Steve Jobs-death, or more abstractly, Rich man poor man. The montage is poorly recycled Bolshevik and Communist propaganda. Remember that montage was refined into an art by Sergei Eisenstein, under stalin, though Eisenstein actually worked in his art against Stalin. Now you see it is a montage, it perpetuates communist propaganda historically used to justify murder, and paraphrases stalin. You still think the quote is coincidental? You say that the image brings up a valid moral point, propaganda always does this, its purpose is to morally justify the hateful violence that always follows. Ignorance is not an excuse.

The idea that because people morn a man like steve Jobs, and do not morn the poor is a lie! Because of Steve Jobs there are less poor, and more opportunities for the poor, even in Africa. So yes we morn him and every one like him, because they are not born nor do they die every day. If we morn the poor, we do nothing but morn. It is a bad image a bad argument and a poor use of Rhetoric. What was intended to be said does not mater, what maters is what was said, directly and indirectly.

Seth said that he did not make the image, that a friend sent it to him. I believe him. But he should of thought more about everything he did and said. The image can not be ignored for what it really is! You can not just wish away history, and say "well thats not what I was trying to say". The Image is hateful, and in the tradition of a practice that has lead to mass murder. It is offensive. Especially in times like these when everyone is scared and angry about the economic situation, remember national socialism anyone?

Further more, I did not accuse Seth of being any of the things I bring up in this post. I said he was not a good debater, and listed reasons why,  the image as an example. 
It has been eaten.

Tangled-Universe

I don't see the connection between Bolshevik/Communist propaganda and Apple/Steve Jobs.
Why the specific propaganda should be re-used.
You see it, because of your background, which I don't share so that speaks for you.

Therefore I interpret it differently. I interpret it from modern world situation where people don't care.
Thinking that way I can't imagine I'm a victim of propaganda mechanisms that justifies violence as you explained.
You projected your interpretation of the image into my different interpretation, which doesn't work/apply.

Anyway, perhaps both of us is right.
I'll try to find that specific propaganda you mentioned and see how much tangent it has with this whole Steve Jobs thing.

Cheers,
Martin

TheBadger

QuoteI don't see the connection between Bolshevik/Communist propaganda and Apple/Steve Jobs.

Rich man poor man.

"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them. Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them".

It has been eaten.

Tangled-Universe

Yes I understand the similarity they have, but that doesn't mean it is actually related to each other. See what I mean?

Why use/make this image, from old propaganda. It has nothing to do with violence and such. I just don't see it (yet?).

TheBadger

Quote from: FrankB on October 11, 2011, 06:12:56 am
Quote from: TheBadger on October 11, 2011, 05:25:19 am
For example you posted an image suggesting a correlation between Steve Jobs and African Genocide. ...And I find your insinuation that as an Apple user I am connected, in anyway, to what Stalin did in Russia, or what Mao did in China, (or colonialism for that matter (mostly european), or what their legacies are still doing, to be profoundly ignorant and deeply insulting!


well now I think you might be over-interpreting this image. I too find it completely misplaced in this threat, (and I can't follow why he continues to provoke), but I think it doesn't go as far as relate to the Stalin thing - it merely seems to say "hello, it's just one individual that died, try spend more of your attention to millions of death-threatened others that still can be rescued", which I a message I think is ok to give. Is it sensible to post this in a memorial thread? Certainly not.

Regards,
Frank


Hello frank,
What I said about the image would have been an over reaction if not for what is going on in the world. Look at Grease, look at the the US. The violence is hardly making the news now, but it will grow. If aloud to it will grow and grow. It always does, little by little. So when Seth acts as a provocateur in a simple memorial thread, and says what he said, and then posts that image of people dying in a terrible way, and for the reasons I gave... Yes, I was a little offended.
But I'm done now. No one else needs to be angry because I am. I can stand by my self.
It has been eaten.

FrankB

@Badger: Interesting discussion anyway, thanks for your point of view. I obviously don't react the same way you do, but I've learned from your point of view, so thanks for that! Good discussion indeed.


Seth


as for history, photomontage is a technique used since mid-victorian era. the communists used it as propagnada, as Usa used it, France, UK, and many other country.
and what you are doing is definitely propaganda for capitalism.
And because Stalin used photomontage as propaganda that would make me a communist propagandist ?!
ahahahah
what a joke !!!

I do think that you are crying for this man, Steve Jobs, who had a great life, but you do not cry on the poor kids everywhere around the Earth.
That is just selfish feeling. you morn him because you feel empty by this loss, because he made you feel better with his company's products. That is definitely a human feeling. selfishness.
tell me where you see a call for violence in this image ???
I see a call for legitimate sorrow, nothing more.

your interpretation of this image is YOUR interpretation, your political interpretation.
that must be very hard for you to watch movies and pictures if you see this picture as communist propaganda !!!
I don't like communism, i don't like capitalism neither.
both of them killed more people than every other political idea through the world (except religion I guess, but this days capitalism is a kind of religion i guess)

And it is not because Stalin said something that this is not true !
as far as I know he said :
"I believe in one thing only, the power of human will."
"Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach."
"Mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and exploited and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division and from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from fundamental facts"

There are tons of them, which you may disagree with but are not wrong because he said that.

I love quotes, they make you feel intellegent when you are just not smart enough to tell good things by yourself, don't you agree ^^
So one from Chomsky
"Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state."

your analyse about this picture is just wrong and as said before, you just see what you want to see because of your background. But that is ot the purpose of this montage.


Quote"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them. Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them".


the same guy said :

"American life is a powerful solvent. It seems to neutralize every intellectual element, however tough and alien it may be, and to fuse it in the native good will, complacency, thoughtlessness, and optimism."

"Fashion is something barbarous, for it produces innovation without reason and imitation without benefit"







TheBadger

TU

It was the casual way he showed people dying as a way to rationalize some hatful things he was saying. This is how the communists used propaganda, and the fascists for that mater. I am not accusing Seth of anything, except passion over reason. If something was wrong 50+ years ago, if it was wrong for nations to use this kind of vitriolic deceitful imagery and messaging, than it is also wrong for us. The point of that image was not the well being of the people depicted!

But I do not want to strain my relationship with you or anyone because I have a strongly held beliefs that no one else cares about. So I will defer to the following and end my involvement in this conversation.

My Life among the Deathworks by Philip Rieff
For the love of beauty: art, history, and the moral foundations of aesthetic judgment by Arthur Pontynen
It has been eaten.

TheBadger

October 11, 2011, 08:12:27 am #38 Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 08:30:51 am by TheBadger
Seth
I did not say Stalin invented montage, I said Sergei Eisenstein turned it into an art. What did you do google the word montage? But I am not going to fight with you on every little point.
Thank you for provoking an interesting debate.

edit

I just read what you wrote all the way through Seth... You think I don't care about the poor? But you post pictures of the poor dying, an actual photo of men woman and children dying from starvation, just to make a point! Have you ever seen someone die from starvation? You are sick! What is the difference between you who uses the dying just to prove a point in a forum discussion, and the rich corporations who use them for labor? You are worse, at least corporations give the poor a job and a chance however small. But you give them nothing, and take whatever dignity they have left away, even as they are dying! You reduced those peoples lives to an add campaign! Do you really think personal insults against me will move me?
You are a fool.
It has been eaten.

rcallicotte

This is how I saw the image.

Quote from: Tangled-Universe on October 11, 2011, 06:09:46 am
Despite your proven background knowledge I think you mis-interpreted the image.
In my opinion this image clearly shows the fuzz of Steve Jobs passing away compared to the lack of fuzz about millions dying each year completely unnoticed.
The image clearly is sarcastic about everybody crying over Jobs while not caring about real problems in the world which are definitely worth crying for and deserve more attention.
Cheers,
Martin
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

rcallicotte

October 11, 2011, 08:42:00 am #40 Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 08:53:34 am by calico
One thing I do not think deserves attention is more wealthy men who are abusing the poor with poor labor conditions and sending American jobs overseas and who teach people that their self-worth is based upon owning a piece of cool technology.   This came home to me, when watching 60 Minutes special on the CEO of GE - can't swallow that poison.



So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

FrankB

Oh please everyone, it has been an emotional debate, true, but don't insult each other over it. Also don't jump right on it with more insults if the other person crosses the line.


rcallicotte

This was cool (from Brad Peebler at Luxology) -

"His passing hit me in a way I did not expect. I considered him a sort of mentor. I am not an Apple-zealot. I use a PC and Mac interchangeably everyday and I like and hate them both equally. At any rate, Steve was someone I looked up to and while many people talk about his "tyrant" qualities, I never experienced that. Most likely this is because I met him at a later stage in his life. I am not suggesting that he deserves the sort of unconditional praise we see in the press and worldwide over the last few days but at the same time it is unfair to be overly critical of a person you do not know. And to publicly bash someone days after their death is not being sensitive to those who may have known and liked/loved him."
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

FrankB

Quote from: calico on October 11, 2011, 08:51:48 am
This was cool (from Brad Peebler at Luxology) -

"His passing hit me in a way I did not expect. I considered him a sort of mentor. I am not an Apple-zealot. I use a PC and Mac interchangeably everyday and I like and hate them both equally. At any rate, Steve was someone I looked up to and while many people talk about his "tyrant" qualities, I never experienced that. Most likely this is because I met him at a later stage in his life. I am not suggesting that he deserves the sort of unconditional praise we see in the press and worldwide over the last few days but at the same time it is unfair to be overly critical of a person you do not know. And to publicly bash someone days after their death is not being sensitive to those who may have known and liked/loved him."


Very good!

Seth

QuoteWhat did you do google the word montage?


no but I kinda like the Dadaism, so it is funny to read that Eisenstein turn photomontage into art, as if nobody did that before him.


QuoteWhat is the difference between you who uses the dying just to prove a point in a forum discussion, and the rich corporations who use them for labor?


I don't make money out of them, I don't use their kids to make even more money, I don't put them into modern slavery.


QuoteYou are worse, at least corporations give the poor a job and a chance however small. But you give them nothing, and take whatever dignity they have left away, even as they are dying!



Are you fucking serious ?
and you say I have no morale ?
using people as slave, let them just surviving because you want to use them to make more and more money is "give the poor a chance" ?!
something is definitely wrong with you.


QuoteYou are sick!

QuoteYou are worse

QuoteYou are a fool.

QuoteDo you really think personal insults against me will move me?


errr...
I said you are selfish, but that is all for the insult i might have told you.
I already apoligize several times in this thread if I offended anyone by my previous posts.
but ... I am not really sure that your insults are a good way to deal with me, if i might say.