National socialism and communism in Greece?

Started by TheBadger, May 01, 2013, 05:10:48 am

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TheBadger

So I was watching this show called "Vice" on HBO. its a pretty good news magazine... Definitely not for young kids though.

Anyway, for the first time I heard about the street battles between National socialists, communists, anarchists and the state that are going on daily in Greece. I really had no idea what was going on there before this program. I had thought all the riots and protests were just spontaneous anger, or regular socialists.

But there are full on communists and fascists fighting for control. The fascists have even gotten 10% of the parliament!
I really had no idea things were this bad in Europe.

I am very confused by the so called anarchists though. So they are "anarchists", but they want socialism? Do Europeans not know what anarchy is? How can you be an anarchists and want benefits from the government?

It is really a full on mess there! Much worse than I knew about... Thanks to the main stream media!

I also learned from that same episode of Vice, that spain is nearly as bad. And to a lessor extent France and Britten.
What the HELL! 2 world wars were not enough for you people that you are bringing back National socialism and communism?
And people say Americans are uneducated and stupid. That we don't know are own history. Ha! Well this time we surrender. You win!

If thats really what Europeans want, its their prerogative, I guess.
The good news is that your all already disarmed and ordered into a kind of federation. So whichever you go with, communism or fascism, it wont be hard for your new masters to "reeducate" the entire continent. That should save some money and trouble.

It has been eaten.

Seth

I didn't watched it but from what people told me, what they said about France was absolutely untrue.
Even far-left wing people told me they said stupid things about the Front National we have in France.
I'll have to watch it by myself to have a better idea on that subject.

That said... you know that for a lot of europeans (not all but a lot), we see US government as fascist and imperialist (and it is imperialist indeed) :)
And maybe you should learn a bit more about anarchist-communism before saying that anarchy and communism are so different.
The thing is that "fascists" in Greece, for example, are doing what the government is not : taking care of poors, bringing security back in some unprotected areas, etc...
I am not saying that it is the solution, I am saying people want them because they do what they say. Which is the opposite of any given democratic government in Europe.

And I do believe a lot of people would prefer be lead by fascists from their own country than by any given american imperialism.

So before you state that we are winning the battle of stupidity and uneducation, I would suggest you to look at your own country ;)
USA go to war against a lot of countries, making millions of dead people (yes, millions), even in Afghanistan, since USA went in the country, heroin market exploded to 40 times what it was before.
Should I mention the fact that your gvt brought debt crisis all over the world, and now is giving order to Europe on how they should rule their countries and economy.
Should I mention that you elected Geordes W Bush twice ?
Or that every week you have a gun or knife killer rampaging randomly in schools or streets ?

C'mon...

And to be really honest, I spit on any government we have here in Europe, as I spit on yours.

Cheers.

Tangled-Universe

Can anyone here explain to me what they mean with "fascist/fascism" or what it means to them?
I see that coming up in so many different discussions, but despite google/wikipedia I have no idea whatever it really means.

Michael, you're being a bit too black&white about the link between anarchy and communism. I see where you're coming from, but I'll try to explain to you what's happening in Europe in my eyes:

If we consider two well known phenomena as pure opposite (just for the sake of easy understanding) and we consider communism and imperialism/corporate governments as these opposites then what we see in Europe is that a quite balanced centred governing of Europe for many years as a whole has quickly changed into corporate governing.
This has, as a matter of fact, always been this way, but it was too obscured for many people to see.
Now it has become blatantly obvious that European governments are becoming corporate governments quickly.
The influence of non-mainstream media raises awareness and countries which suffer the most respond the first, logically. So Greece and Spain.
More than ever people find themselves unheard and unprotected by their government, because their governments isn't there for the people anymore, but rather for corporate interests.

The response to that is a rather communist like radicalism with the goal to bring back balance.
These people don't want socialism in its purist form, they want less corporate influence.
Since democracy is failing and governments do not listen at all people start riots and anarchy.

Tangled-Universe

The global financial crisis exposed "democracy" as a corrupt instrument made to make ordinary people believe they have a say in what's happening and what not.
It turned out that all these years politicians were shoulder-deep in corporate asses and that democracy is completely failing (on a global scale).
In a European country your democratic vote influences local processes, but as the world globalises quickly your vote is totally worthless to the things that really matter, which are: Global finances, energy, water, oil, gas and other natural resources like metals etc..

Never have so many alternative media exposed corrupt political systems and even mainstream media seem to have increased their guts by a mere couple of %
It's just that tad enough to make people realise something is wrong and it makes them curious!
Hell, even at work I have managed to get the most rusty people (mostly older ones) believe that the world isn't what it appears to be.
Now with that blur removed from their eyes they are able to see through the shallow stories and lies which are meant to cover true government intentions.
The best example at the moment is that people don't believe it anymore when a politician says that tax money is needed to save a bank from bankruptcy.
It's unimaginably idiotic and people start to see :) They are not working for us anymore, but for their own career in service of (big) corporations.
This completely explains the increase of short-sight type of political thinking in the past 20 years.

This luckily (in my opinion) leads to a spiral in disbelieve and distrust.
I hope that one day this whole corrupt system fails completely and if it is needed through anarchy so must be it.
I don't blame these people from Greece who stand up against this system. They had it coming.
It's a natural process. An end will come to this, things will get better and then it starts all over again etc. etc.

cyphyr

I completely agree with you Martin. The corruption in our governments is becoming more and more transparent each day and so obviously people are getting angry. Countries are also becoming more and more polarised and simple solutions being parroted in sound bites to incredibly complex problems. The old adage of "power corrupts " is being played out before us and since we are fundamentally powerless to effect it there is more anger generated.
I don't know what the solution may be. It's certainly not anything that is available now. Some form or anarcho communist (as in we're all in a commune of humanity together) society may be a way forward but there will be many tears before that.
Richard
www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
i7 5930K @3.5Ghz, 32Gb (TG4 benchmark 13.44)

Seth

Fascism was only used for the Mussolini government between 1922 and 1945.
Today, people use it for a lot of kind of government.

So a simple definition would be that fascism wants the nation to be composed by a unique community behind one strong man. Where individuals should "bow" in front of the country, in front of its leader, in front of the common good. In fascism, you don't follow the Human Rights. Fascism needs a strong government, with strong police and security. The jobs are vertically organized, in corporations. Fascism is suspicious about foreigners and use a reactionary politic to avoid libertarism.
Usually fascism says that it is the spirit of the people so the people should not be above the state

PabloMack

May 01, 2013, 08:32:32 pm #6 Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 08:38:48 pm by PabloMack
Quote from: Seth on May 01, 2013, 10:47:16 amThat said... you know that for a lot of europeans (not all but a lot), we see US government as fascist and imperialist (and it is imperialist indeed) :)


Really? How so?

I have seen an alarming YouTube video that "exposes" the extremely slanted news that Europeans get about America. It talks about how the media is pretty exclusively controlled by far left-wingers. It talks about how we in the USA have a choice to see far left or far right news or anywhere in between but in much of Europe the news is very slanted and there is no balance or choice that is within easy access (sounds a bit like North Korea in this regard). This video said that it is especially bad in Scandinavia (in general) and Norway (in particular). We in the USA do see some of what good the USA is doing in Afghanistan and how those who don't want their lives to be controlled by the Taliban and Mujahidin are glad we are there. These are the peace loving people who have businesses and don't run around with AK-47's. Perhaps the French people don't even know what the Taliban is or your news media leads you to believe that they are an innocent bunch of freedom fighters that only resent American presence. I do think we know better than that, Seth. If your government and/or news media (perhaps that it controls) has pulled the wool over your eyes then the situation may be worse over there than I was aware of (in Europe I mean, not Afghanistan).

On the other hand, I do think that George W made a grave mistake by taking out Saddam. He was the only force that kept Iran in check. Now with Iraq out of the way, Iran sees they have bigger fish to fry. I have been very impressed by watching a series on YouTube put out by some students in Azerbaijan called the CaspianReport. They pretty much seem to see things as I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Azy6cjg5eM

PabloMack

Quote from: Tangled-Universe on May 01, 2013, 11:55:39 amThe global financial crisis exposed "democracy" as a corrupt instrument made to make ordinary people believe they have a say in what's happening...


Quote from: cyphyr on May 01, 2013, 12:50:29 pmI don't know what the solution may be. It's certainly not anything that is available now. Some form or anarcho communist (as in we're all in a commune of humanity together) ...


I can't believe you guys. Its not democracy that is the problem. People in Vietnam have even less say in government and they are communist. True anarchy would cause far more waste than you have ever experienced in your life. The problem is human nature. People in government abuse the system for personal gain no matter what form of government you have. Stalin was an absolute dictator in a country that was supposedly against such things. People do all sorts of things in the name of something else and there are enough naive people around to swallow it. Sounds like you guys have a case of "the grass is greener". I know that this sounds bad, but we all need to get more involved in government. The problem really is that there are so many of us, that none of us get exactly what we want and we are pushing in different directions.

As for the banking colapse that happened about 2008, in the USA it wasn't mainly caused by greedy bankers though they were not doing their job to make sure that their borrowers were going to be able to pay back their loans. The colapse was ultimately caused by do-gooders trying to help irresponsible people and people without means to help them buy a house that they could not pay for. It doesn't matter how good the banks are or how much integrity the government has, when people default on their loans the banks can't recover the money. Its not a conspiracy. Its the foolishness of our general public that is at fault.

cyphyr

Trouble is few people understand what anarchism really is.
It's not chaos, it's not a free for all and it's not easy.
It's about self responsibility but realising that the "self" that your responsible to is part of a greater whole. Sometimes you will have to do things that are not exactly what you would want to do but they are done out of a sense of belonging to a larger community (that's the communist bit I was speaking of). It's something like how a festival is run, nobody wants to clean the shit pit but it has to be done. The guy who volunteers for it will get free beer and thanks! The problem is and always has been one of scale. This works on a small tribal, village even town scale but scale it up to entire cities, countries and beyond and it falls apart. We don't feel a part of larger structures in the same way we do of smaller ones.
Check out Marinaleda in Spain. It's been run as a communist society for some thirty years and VERY effectively too. But as I say above it's small scale, only a couple of thousand people.

Load of unrealistic old hippy shit you'll may say and you are probably right. Culturally we are not evolved enough to handle it yet, we may never be.


Quote from: PabloMackIts not democracy that is the problem. People in Vietnam have even less say in government and they are communist.

Vietnam is NOT a communist country, its a "Marxist-Leninist single-party state", there is a huge difference.
There are no communist countries in the world, briefly happened in Russia but I think it lasted a matter of weeks. Cuba is about as close as it has ever come and that's pretty wide of the mark. Do you actually think that people in so called democratic countries have any more say in what happens in their country than so called communist ones? The old joke is unfortunately true, "it don't matter who you vote for the government still get in".

Quote from: PabloMack... The collapse was ultimately caused by do-gooders ...

You're avin' a laff! lol ;D
No, it was caused by corporate thieves fixing interest rates. You thought LIBOR was bad (and it was) check out what's breaking. The ISDAfix makes it pale into insignificance. If these two rip-off's hadn't happened we would not be in the situation we are in now. Simples. :)
Apparently the world is in debt to the tune of Fifty Trillion and rising. Who to?


Quote from: PabloMack...This video said that it is especially bad in Scandinavia (in general) and Norway (in particular)...

Check out the Press Freedom index, Scandinavia has an even freer press than either the US or the UK and has had for a long time.

Right now I got a go and exercise my illusion of freedom and vote. (Local council elections today)

Cheers

Richard
www.richardfraser.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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Ryzen 9 3900X @3.79Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 6:20)
i7 5930K @3.5Ghz, 32Gb (TG4 benchmark 13.44)

Tangled-Universe

May 02, 2013, 04:29:36 am #9 Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 04:32:12 am by Tangled-Universe
PabloMack, I don't know where to start with telling you how naïve some of the things are you are saying.
Fincial crisis 2008 not because of bankers, but because of do-gooders?
USA doing good work in Afghanistan?
People in Vietnam have even less say in government and they are communist?
And last bot not least, denying that USA isn't imperialistic. That's just killing me :) Ever heard of "Confessions of an economic hitman"?
If you have seen/read it I dare you to say this again with the same conviction ;D
I think the media in USA is doing a terrific job in that regard when I read your comment.

In case of "the grass is greener", that is absolutely not true, not even remotely.
Actually, many would mistake(?) this for US arrogance or ignorance.

Some things make sense though! like career politicians who screw up democracy.
What still counts/matters in the end is that they have become career politicians because of corporate interests.
The closest and best example for me are our latest ministers of finances here in The Netherlands.
They facilitated the creation of the Euro, the financial crisis and didn't protect the people from the bankers never ceasing hunger for money and power. Look how they have been rewarded: all with high positions in banks now. Pure coïncidence! Pure coïncidence! I can hear so many people here in The Netherlands and beyond saying that, but they should know better if they have carefully followed their course of action when they were active governers.

In regard to USA and Afghanistan we're told the exact same here, be no mistake about that.
Karzai is being bribed systematically by the CIA, that was in the news a couple of days ago here.
Without bribing Karzai there's no access to all the heads of the Taliban tribes.
It's for a reason they call Karzai the "mayor of Afghanistan" instead of the president.
The Taliban are still in control/power and the USA is bombing the Taliban and a lot of innocent inhabitants with drones.
They do this because the CIA can't get to the tribes. Nobody can, history tells that.
The drones are extremely upsetting both Taliban as well as the ordinary people there, because it's so cowardly and causing so much grief.

In the end this all doesn't matter that much, because what is happening is:

Both USA and Europe are made to believe that NATO is in Afghanistan for a justified reason, as it was in Iraq twice or Vietnam, but no one really explains the true reason.
USA media makes the news shiny to keep the foundation.
Europe media makes the news less shiny to make us believe we would do any better. Which we wouldn't.
The USA vs Europe discussion is great, keeps us busy and allows as not to think too much about stuff that matters.

In conclusion this keeps us all pre-occupied and busy with arguments here, but in the end the true intention of all of this is to not have us understand fully what's happening in the world, how and why.
We need to be born, live to work until death in order to consume corporate goods.
The less we know the better it is. That's all they want from us, these corporate governments.

By the way, this may seem like bittered and depressed, but despite that when you realise and see through these mechanisms it doesn't mean you can't live a happy life :) In many occassions it makes life much easier! For example:
All these people who argue about local politics. I can't be bothered by it anymore. It costs too much energy, for what? To prevent my parking-permit becoming 2% more expensive? To make sure my insurance covers removal of a molar by a dentist? Yeah great, these things really make my mortgage lower, my energy bill and gas cheaper. Or ultimately make me not work for corporate governments, but for my own personal freedom and desires? NO. I safe myself that otherwise wasted energy :)

edit: Thanks Richard for saving me from explaining the Vietnam and the obvious financial crisis stuff.

PabloMack

May 02, 2013, 10:34:22 am #10 Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 11:03:25 am by PabloMack
Quote from: cyphyr on May 02, 2013, 03:56:10 am...that's the communist bit I was speaking of...This works on a small tribal, village even town scale but scale it up to entire cities, countries and beyond and it falls apart.


I think that attributing this to "communism" even the true communism that you are calling it is not understanding this phenomenon which is observable with all forms of government that allow people local control. People need local control over their lives. This is individual motivation. When someone directly benefits from what he/she builds with their own efforts, it is satisfying. They take ownership of it. They can make sure that resources go into what is important to them. A village is small enough that people who want to accomplish something can negotiate in person and debate about a concept. They can compromise in person and agree on a plan. But when you are taxed away, you don't build anything yourself and you hope that maybe some of those taxes will come back and benefit you and those you care about. In a large organization, the personal interaction is absent. There is plenty of opportunity for embezzlers to drain off money that no one will notice is gone and that is not counting the extra cost of the overhead of administering it. And when more comes back to you and your community than you were taxed, you don't have any direct way of knowing that someone else was cheated. It is local control that causes the better performance of a village, not communism. Sure, it is good when people want to help eachother. That all adds to a better place to live. But lets not confuse communism with local control of funds and resources. That is why the original 13 colonies wanted to confederate and not federalize. That is why taxes should be used locally more and it is a big argument against the redistribution of wealth that the socialists are always pushing. Centralizing is a recipe for waste and disaster.

Seth

Quote from: PabloMack on May 01, 2013, 08:32:32 pm
We in the USA do see some of what good the USA is doing in Afghanistan and how those who don't want their lives to be controlled by the Taliban and Mujahidin are glad we are there. These are the peace loving people who have businesses and don't run around with AK-47's.


yeah right...
only a bit more than 12000 civilians killed... they must be very glad...
and to think that US soldiers came there to bring them peace and democracy must cheer them more.

Hopefully, deads count won't go as high as in Iraq with more than 1 million deads ;)
because that would make them very very glad...

PabloMack

May 02, 2013, 04:27:37 pm #12 Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 04:34:44 pm by PabloMack
Quote from: Seth on May 02, 2013, 11:57:25 am
only a bit more than 12000 civilians killed... they must be very glad...


I just grabbed this off the web for some of today's casualties:

Original: "A Taliban bomb killed eight Afghan police".

Seth's brain translates this to: "Americans executed eight Afghans today. They are thought to have been planted American spies but they were gunned down just because they were Afghanis".

Also this:

Original: "Units of Afghan police raided Taliban hideouts in Ghazni province 125 km south of Kabul late Wednesday night, leaving six militants dead"

Seth's brain translates this to: "Americans executed six innocent Afghan civilians today"

Also this:

Original: "a border policeman has been killed in what appears to have been an exchange of fire with Pakistani troops along the boundary between the two nations"

Seth's brain translates this to: "a border policement was executed by American marines today near the border with Pakistan."

Also this:

Original: "Taliban militants abducted around 28 Afghan local police forces after attacking a number of security check posts in Ghormach district"

Seth's brain translates this to: "American forces abducted around 28 innocent civilians and threatened to execute them. The Taliban innocents were blamed for their own actions."

From yesterday there is:

Original: "insurgents used a bomb and small arms fire to kill a representative of a government peace council tasked with finding ways to begin talks with the Taliban to end the nearly 12-year-old war"

Seth's brain translates this to: "American soldiers executed an innocent civilian because he knew a way to end the war peacefully"

Also from yesterday:

Original: "Afghan civilians, including three children, were killed and three others wounded when an improvised bomb hit a vehicle in southern province of Uruzgan "

Seth's brain translates this to: "Innocent Afghan civilians, including three children, were killed by American solders on Tuesday who threw an IED at them."

Also yesterday:

Original: "Fighter jets on Wednesday targeted insurgent hideouts in the Orakzai tribal region, killing four militants and destroying two hideouts."

Seth's brain translates this to: "American jets killed four innocent civilians today destroying two homes. They had not even suspected that they were occupied by insurgents. The Americans just thought it was fun to kill those desert people because they are such imperialists."

Also yesterday:

Original: "Up to six Taliban militants have been killed and 10 others detained"

Seth's brain translates this to: "Up to six innocent civilians have been murdered today by American soldiers and 10 others are being held hostage just because AMERICANS ARE IMPERIALISTS!"

Also yesterday:

Original: "According to local authorities in eastern Kunar province of Afghanistan, at least 37 missiles were fired in Dangdam district from the Pakistani soil during the latest wave of cross-border shelling"

Seth's brain translates this to: "American drones launched 37 missiles trying to kill innocent civilians. When the Americans were caught in the act, they claimed that the missiles were actually being fired from poor and innocent Pakistanis who were actually just joyously flying kites."

All obtained from:
http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/

Now at the top is written: "The bottom line is clear: Our vital interests in Afghanistan are limited and military victory is not the key to achieving them. On the contrary, waging a lengthy counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan may well do more to aid Taliban recruiting than to dismantle the group, help spread conflict further into Pakistan, unify radical groups that might otherwise be quarreling amongst themselves, threaten the long-term health of the U.S. economy, and prevent the U.S. government from turning its full attention to other pressing problems."

I don't disagree with that assessment (sorry if that spoils your evil image of me). They are probably right. But every one of the events listed were not from Americans killing innocent civilians. Just dumb luck? Or does Seth have one of those irrational primitive emotions that the intelligent mind can't control or reason with?

Seth

May 02, 2013, 04:52:41 pm #13 Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 04:58:34 pm by Seth
it is not important why people are killed, PabloMack. The important thing is that innocent people are killed.
I suggest you to read a bit more about civilian casualties. Even the statistic given by US admisnistration.
I do not need my brain to translate.
Just read UN reports and  United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan reports.
I do not think you are evil, I think you are brainwashed by your medias, and naive.
your leaders, on the other hand, are truely evil. They are definitely not better than talibans (and I should remember you that talibans were trained and armed by the USA and called soldier of freedom by USA some years ago)


edit :not only your leaders are evil, because I can't think of any good leader around right now.

PabloMack

May 02, 2013, 05:43:01 pm #14 Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 07:00:26 pm by PabloMack
Quote from: Seth on May 02, 2013, 04:52:41 pmit is not important why people are killed, PabloMack.


Tell that to the judge in a criminal murder case. Our reasons for everything we do are (at least potentially) important. It is what the legal profession calls "justifiable cause".

If left up to me, I would have left all peoples of the world alone and only go into other lands (not countries, primitive lands with no modern governments) to explore those places for science. No modern technology like fire arms, water wells, pumps, medicines, famin relief nor aid of any sort whatsoever would be given or otherwise introduced to those people. There would also be no mining, lumbering or agriculture of any sort by modern countries. Any person from an advanced country would be severely punished by bringing any sort of modern article to the primitive peoples who lived in those lands. I really have hard feelings toward those Europeans who tried to change the natives to their own liking. (I also have hard feelings toward those native peoples who have wiped out their wildlife). But once they got rifles, industrialization, nuclear weapons etc, then the rules have to change. There is no use closing the gate after the horses have left the pen. Those formerly primitive peoples now have to be held up to a higher standard. Humans really haved f*#^ed things up, arms dealers and do-gooders alike. All it seems we are doing now is damage control.

Didn't you find reading my translations the least bit amusing? I really enjoyed myself.