PRISM

[Tangled-Universe]

Not if you're self employed ...

Yes of course, but without knowing exact numbers that's probably 10-15% only I guesstimate...

[cyphyr]

About right, maybe a little more. The recession has pushed a lot of people into self employment, not out of choice but out of necessity.
It's a royal pain in the ass I can tell ya! Hate the forms

[TheBadger]

I think your both obviously correct.

I can only speak about the US system though. Of all the things I don't know, Im sure I know nothing about tax law in the Netherlands or in England (Do you have a sense if they are as bad as here?).
Here the taxes are not taken automatically by the government, but are automatically (in most cases) taken or set aside by businesses and banks and then handed over to the IRS/treasury/other.

Perhaps T-U, a general Strike would be simpler? Where everyone just walks off the job for one day. The message could resonate quite well. The message just needs to be singular and unanimous: "WE DONT TRUST YOU". It could work too. Taxes for that day would stop;)

A tax strike would necessarily require the full support of the Business world. But think about it! If the whistleblower can steal the NSA's secrets and give them to us (or China, as the case may be) Couldn't someone steal Coke's recipe and sell it to pepsi? (or also China too)? I feel like the people who run pay roles have a vested interest in this subject just as everyone else does. No? Doesn't everyone everywhere need (not just want) to be secure in their papers and persons? Anyway, Im sure more people than just terrorists, don't want the US government looking at them.

Anyway, just an idea that sounds better to me than shooting. Because lets name our options here; 1) Violent revolution, 2) A strike, 3) not voting... What else have we got?

The thing about a general strike is, that the message must remain simple and pure. So that everyone can remain united. If we let them do to us what they did to the "tea party" and to the "occupy movement"...  Well Im sure you get the point.


President Obama will be in Ireland for the G8. I think he will also visit Europe too. Please give him a proper welcome.

[TheBadger]

You know, I would of thought I would be among the last people on earth to be discussing resisting/condemning my government in public like this... Look what Bush and Obama have done!

By the way Richard, I have heard that America has the largest prison system in the world. So Im sure we got room for the congress too.

[AP]

I think we probably do have the largest prison system. Gotta keep the Victimless Crimes and Drug War going after all... One more option is to try and go Argorist possibly or for those with faith out there an act of God.

The Woz has some things to say about this as well.

http://youtu.be/xOWDwKLJAfo

[efflux]

Richard.
I think I know what you mean by the "grey man". After thinking on it a while, I think the grey man is the guy that has to dig the graves, dump the bodies, and then takes a bullet in the back of the head.
The grey man is the first body that is found in a mass grave, because he was the last to die.

I thought too, that obscurity was safety for a long time. But PRISM proves otherwise.
No man is safe. Ever.

Totally agree with this.

I haven't read the rest of the thread (too busy in Blender) but people need to start doing what is right on small level, not what just gets you by.

[efflux]

If voting made any difference they would make it illegal ...

An oldie but true nonetheless

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxsQ7jJJcEA

If this is the case then people need to vote in such a way so that it becomes obvious to everyone that voting is useless. They don't do this because they vote for the usual supplied puppets and maintain the democratic illusion.

[efflux]

So thats the real difference. The constitution makes revolution legal. And gives us an orderly way to revolt, and to do justice to our government. It assures that the government can never ask, "by what right do the people rise up?". And then use that question to suppress us.

This is why I mentioned Britain's Bill Of Rights. It also gives the people this power. Of course these laws are long forgotten just as they hope to achieve in the US with the constitution. Most of our older laws are problematic in some ways but the US constitution is based on similar principles.

In Britain we are subjects of the Queen (or at least used to be). However, the Queen is under oath to uphold the law of the land which is our common law. She is meant to stop the government overiding this and he has every power to do that. She can perfectly lawfully veto any treaty with for example the EU. Of course she doesn't do this and the royal family are even worse than the government. The government, judiciary, police and military are all under oath to the Queen because she is meant to protect our constitution which is based on common law. She is in total breach of her oath. This system doesn't function any more and it's flawed compared to the US constitution where everybody is meant to be sovereign but now that system is totally corrupted.

[efflux]

Also, the referendum that is (supposedly) going to be offered to the people of the UK about membership of the European union is a breach of our constitution because the EU as a whole has no such inalienable rights and treaties overide any such national constitutions of any member state. You can't have people voting away the rights of the minority. That's like saying there should be a vote in the US to do away with the constitution so the US can amalgamate with other countries where bureaucracies can give and take away rights.

[TheBadger]

Yes!
The idea that the majority can vote to take away a right of a minority is evil! So if the majority wants slavery again, does that mean we can have slavery? NO!!!! Rights can be added too. But they cannot be taken away.
In America rights come from God (by law) not from men, or any man. Therefore no man can undue what God has done. This is the terrible problem for people who want to discard the constitution in whole or in part. By claiming that they have the power to do it they are saying that they are gods (in law). They are not gods!!! They will bleed and die like all men do, if they try this by force... Again, the 2nd amendment.

I promise you this, everyone in my country knows that there will be civil war if rights are seized. PRISM is testing this. The only reason people are not out in the streets is because its described in national security terms. But more and more I keep hearing politicians (right and left) talk about PRISM in terms of law enforcement. So now cops have the resources of the Army? And can use it on the people?

Its terrifying! If you think gorilla warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan is bad, wait until you see it in Chicago, or NYC. Its a frigging nightmare! And thats what will happen if the left or right continue to play at being gods. "No man is safe. Ever", is also a two way street. We have seen this in resent american history from the far right (most notably) but also with the far left (though the left tends to be incompetent in terms of tactical violence). Need examples?

Just to be absolutely clear I condemn the idea of civil war, violent revolution, or killing anyone, except in self defense. So Since PRISM is reading us now, I just want to be clear. And yes I do feel a deeply chilling effect on my willingness to share my feeling as a result of PRISM and everything like it. Its like standing in a book store or library with the government standing right over your shoulder. It make you want to pretend to read only the books tiled "how to be better at obeying the government and never talking back". BY Barak Obama (forward by Nancy Pelosi and Satan him self).

LOOK! It is Jesus Obama! He has come back!
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The leftist media is full of these messianic images of the state (obama). Makes me want to Fu*#ing vomit my self to death.

[TheBadger]

Just a clarification.
The reason we say that our rights come from God (capital G) is because we believe that they do.
The practical manifestation of this for freedom and liberty (and Nation) is that it means that the state cannot become God.. like the soviet Union, or the Roman empire were to their people in their times. Mana does not come from the capital. Your gifts and talents do not come from Obama (or your overlords), therefore they cannot tell you what to do with them. This is why taxing your income is unnatural and inherently Satanic (literal and modernest). The reward of the sweat of your brow is yours by "natural law" (lincoln).

When men claim these powers, they become roman emperors. And if they are right and the constitution and bill of rights are wrong, nothing can stop them. They can come into your house an rape your wife. And yes they used to do this... England did it to the scots. (and there are example in contemporary times as well)

PRISM is molesting you right now.

[cyphyr]

Personally I'd leave god (small g intentional) out of the argument.

Below is a link to a long article showing how PRISM is but the tip of a very old iceberg of American surveillance. It goes way back to the mid 70's and involves capturing the data before it even enters the states in the vast undersea network of fibre optic cables. Very interesting read.

Secret to Prism program: Even bigger data seizure

[TheBadger]

By leaving God out of it you miss my point entirely. And also a point of law. What I said was not an opinion, it is the law of the land.
Because God is in it, I am not a "subject" of your Queen, and likewise, I am free from the Queens church (God trumps Queen and church).
In order to leave out God I would have to be ignorant of 200+ years of American history.

My use of the word "God" here, has not been evangelical, but historical and intellectual (never minding my terrible spelling and sentence structure).
Taking any offense to it is simply silly. Like being irritated by talking about Cathédrale Notre Dame, and also talking about catholicism in France. It would be historically AND legally incorrect and flat out hateful.
This is why I talk about modernism in terms of satanism (Anton Szandor LaVey) and also literally.

[cyphyr]

Sorry I should not have made my crack about god, my bad
Edited the post.

But to say that there is a power that is higher that mankind is flawed and based on no empirical information anyone can show and to base a law on it makes no sense at all.
"In God we Trust", what on earth dose that mean? Its a great way of saying that we are not wise enough to come up with our own morals and standards, that we need some direction from above. And you can bet that someone will step up and start to say that they speak for the big G.

Anyway check out the article. I think theology vs morals vs politics is for another thread lol 

[TheBadger]

If the power of a god is not claimed only by God, then they can be claimed by anyone; Hitler, Stalin, the Emperors, the kings of England, France and Germany, the Pope... If you do not give God the power of God it will be claimed by others. (Belief in God is not relevant).
History proves this empirically and absolutely without exception (look at the french revolution). The founders of America were geniuses! Don't you see it? I am not arguing that there is a God. Only that without "God", we are slaves.

We must look at history from the perspective of history, as well as hindsight.

But to say that there is a power that is higher that mankind is flawed and based on no empirical information anyone can show and to base a law on it makes no sense at all.

What about Gravity?

Cyphyr,
I have not talked about theology at all! ONly American history in its proper context, and law.