Author Topic: Bold political leadership!  (Read 25240 times)

Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2007, 01:50:57 PM »
Will, I hear this quite often lately that "life will exist in some form or another" and this is probably based mostly upon the belief that evolution is the strength of life and how could it be stopped?  It's amazing how many "candles of the wind" are actually in this world and life is one of them.  Hard to come by and easy to be snuffed out.  Of course, we could always say that viruses are a form of life but even they don't live forever without a host of some sort.

Fascinating how easy it is to accept the "it doesn't matter" route and I'm sure this is because there's so much craziness we just close it down to survive it all.  I'm curious how you came to your conclusion about planet life, Will.




Well I think two or three generations from now they will look back on us with both pity and amazement on or ignorance to the big things that were happening around us. Frankly no matter what we to to the planet life will exist in some form or another but we may not be here to see that.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2007, 01:52:02 PM »
Wow...and it's possible much of the resources and wildlife and vegetation in the U.S. would still be intact if they had been left to it.


There is an american natives' saying:
"Our children do not inherit our world - we have borrowed their world."
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Offline Volker Harun

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2007, 02:18:16 PM »
One thing that is making the 2 or 3 generations mentioned by Will to maybe a few hundred generations is the following fact.

Most of the world's CO2 is stored within the oceans. As soon as the oceans get warmer (due to more CO2 in the atmosphere) they will release more and more of this storage. So there is an exponential increase - and nobody really knows when it ends.

It might be interesting to revisit that old DOS-simulation SIM Earth. As far as I know it is free for download and runnable on Win XP with DosBox.

http://www.abandonia.com/games/en/185/SimEarth.htm

Offline nvseal

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2007, 04:32:58 PM »
I usually don’t get involved in these kinds of discussions on this board because that's not what I come here for but I will make an exception for this. So far, this discussion has been crawling with global warming alarmism (a.k.a. we are going to die!). I, for one, do not believe in manmade global warming. There are several reasons for this. 1) It is completely arrogant to assume that we have the power to fundamentally alter the climate of our entire planet. After all, one volcano erupted more pollution and CO2 gasses into the air in one day than mankind has in years. Sometime we forget just how small we really are. 2) There is no direct link between man’s actions and global warming. In fact, global warming climate models have been consistently wrong in there predictions. Conversely, non global warming models – such as those based on the sun spots and earths oceans – have been correct, though ignored by the global warming alarmist movement. 3) The uniting call of the global warming movement is that there is a “consensus” among scientist that global warming is a man made phenomenon rather than a natural cycle. The problem with this is that science is not consensus. Scientist don’t get together and agree on something and call it science – that’s just an opinion. And, for that matter, such an opinion (that global warming is manmade, hypothesis may be a better word) cannot be scientifically tested because we just don’t have the means to accurately study the global climate in such detail. Moreover, while the media claims this consensus it also acts as if there is no descent whatsoever inside the scientific community. And that’s a lie. 4) Even scientist who do agree with the manmade hypothesis have wondered if they might not have “oversold” the idea of global warming to the public. 5) More than anything, global warming is a political movement; I’ll come back to that. 6)Al Gore’s arguments have been refuted time and time again, both before and after the making of his film. Many scientists who agree that global warming is manmade have rejected Al Gore’s claims as nonscientific, inaccurate and over stated. I would encourage you all to read this http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/450392,CST-EDT-REF30b.article. Interestingly enough, despite the failures of global warming climate models people such as Al Gore continue to spread their manmade global warming message as absolute, undeniable truth – even going so far as to try to censor dissenting opinions (i.e. revoking licenses). By the way, if Al Gore is as right as he claims why has he never accepted the chance to debate with the people he says don't have a leg to stand on? Despite the failures of global warming climate models their advocates continue to assert their accuracy. Even if the model has been wrong for years, if the climate even slightly lines up with the model at one time it is called proof. Everything is blamed on global warming, be it a hot summer day or cold winter night – without any scientific proof, global warming alarmist claim all sorts of absurd connections without evidence or rational analysis. Global warming is no more than a catalyst for the politically driven environmentalist movement. Politically driven? Yes, as I have already said, there is very little science in global warming. Communism is on the rise again; only this time it’s called environmentalism or, more immediately, global warming. Hillary Clinton has already discussed “wealth redistribution” and “redistributing profits” from oil companies to research programs for alternative fuels. These are only the beginnings of the government invasion of the private sector and the free market if the alarmist claims continue to invade Washington and are treated as facts. As was the stated at the beginning of this topic, the government has imposed itself into the auto makers industry. We are not destroying the earth. The earth is merely fluctuating as it always has. After all, how much has the earth warmed as a whole? Something like 2 degrees? And for that matter, what is the earth’s “normal” climate which we supposedly are altering? What causes global warming? The Sun.

Bold leadership? I think not. I think it's communism. I think it is the government implanting itself into areas in which it has no buisness or authority.

Calico, are you saying that the government not taking over the free market is a foolish decision? What do the wealthy and greed have to do with anything?
And by the way, if you are referring to the war in Iraq, it was not fought over oil.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 04:38:15 PM by nvseal »

Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2007, 05:36:25 PM »
nvseal -

I have addressed different topics, which to me are connected.  One topic is what the wealthy are doing: destroying the Earth.  The proof of this is widespread (beyond Global Warming) where rivers are destroyed, ocean wildlife is destroyed, alarming numbers of animal life and plant life going extinct, forests are destroyed, and people are being massacred.  This is global and if it's doubted that any of these things are happening, it would be nice to know (with the resource of the Internet available as it is) who is blinding anyone from seeing the truth.  I've seen proof after proof of this - rivers are pouring silt into the ocean worldwide, which is based upon poor stewardship by various countries.  Anyone been to a beach and not seen signs of retreating numbers of fish and coral?  Extinction is real.  Forests in South America and Alaska have been raped without concern for re-planting.  Forests on the West Coast of the U.S. have been up in smoke for years upon years.  Look at Africa's political situation, if we have any doubt that greed is literally killing people who are considered less than garbage to maniac bastards.

So, I see man destroying Earth.

Secondly, I see potential destruction of much of our planet by nuclear exchanges.  Much of this will likely be surrounding the religions of the Middle East.  This isn't global warming, but it is man destroying the Earth.

Thirdly, global warming can be traced back to multiple incidences, some of which are manmade and this is what Gore exposes.  He realizes other factors, but is showing clearly that the temperatures are altering much more that 1 or 2 degrees.  Mountains and glaciers around the world are melting down to the bare earth.

As far as the old argument about Communism vs. Capitalism.  It's moot.  A form of government of any sort can be ruined by fools.  You could have a King who is wise and make his people happy, while having a democracy full of corrupt old senators who...(oh, we know this story). 

Loving things more than loving God (and hence people) will lead people to destroy everything (and everyone) in their path to get what they want.  If that throws you, it's because it sounds so religious.  In fact, it's just true.  And maybe we're reaching a point (or have we reached it?) that people just don't care what happens and will pursue whatever they want to get whatever it is they want even if it's in the name of God.  Who knew a religion could convince multitudes of its followers to explode themselves, killing and maiming many other people all in the name of God?  Or who could have believed that a man who says he believes in God could lead America to fight a war by lying to his own people to lead them there and then pardoning the man who put his own country's protectors at risk (the same protector whose husband opposed this "believer")? 
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Offline Will

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2007, 06:49:41 PM »
Oh wow, anywho I was just stating the fact that there is bacteria deep in the earths crust that is still around form the disasters of bygone eras. all of the animals and plants, including us, will die off eventually but many have lived for millions of years (ferns, crocodiles, ect). But of course we are doing a lot to accelerate this process and this has become increasingly apparent. It will be seen how much damage we will cause before taking steps beyond the initial one that are taking place today and the near future. Hopefully we will not be too late. In other news the threat of dies is also pretty near as the doomsday clock is set around 11pm (where 12am is a nuclear apocalypses or something) so thats good. Also I'm watching the planet earth DVDs thatt I got as a gift and there is some pretty cools stuff out there that I'm going to miss (like fungi that take over ants and then sprout out there heads /evil smile) But I'm going to be around for roughly another sixty to seventy years so I have plenty of time to make a mark for the good of the planet. I already to workshops and stuff teaching people and do some work in land conservation so thats good.

But if it all goes south then I'll be all trained up on fallout and wasteland :P
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Offline nvseal

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2007, 07:07:57 PM »
First, the "Bush lied" call has been uttered time and time again but it has no factual bases; it is just political rhetoric. To say that Bush lied is to say the he KNEW that there were no WMDs in Iraq yet pushed for war anyway while manufacturing evidence to support his claim. That is to say that he knowingly, purposefully, and deviously misled the American people. However, there is no evidence to support such a claim that he deceived. If anything, the most that can be said is that he – along with the UN and congress, for they all agreed that Iraq had or was working to produce WMDs – where wrong. If Bush lied, everyone lied. There is a big difference between being wrong and being deceitful. However, I do not believe that our intelligence and that gathered by others internationally was wrong. Many of our ground forces, commanders, intelligence gatherers, and captured enemy combatants point toward the high probability that Saddam moved what weapons and programs he had to surrounding nations such as Syria. Besides, we did find chemical weapons which were supposed to have been destroyed. Bush didn’t lie; Saddam did. The only mistake Bush made was giving Saddam too much time to erase his programs.

Second, you are really going off subject as I thought you were talking about global warming. Global warming can be traced back to the Sun. Did you read the article I posted about some of the myths Gore puts forward?

Communism vs. Capitalism is by no means moot. The question is which one of these is the government of fools. Capitalism by definition cannot be ruined by fools in government because it is not ruled by them. That is what the free market means. Communism is the government of fools because it places control of the market directly under the authority of fools. Not fools so much because they are stupid per se or evil, but because there is know way they can have the completeness of knowledge and understanding to make wise decisions regarding what is placed under their authority. That is the problem with central planning. Which is the fool, the one who assumes to know everything or the one who recognizes how little one can know? Such an important question is not moot, especially in the case of the government and environment. One’s answer to this question can mean the difference between freedom and tyranny, clean air and pollution, forest and wastelands. The communist Soviet Union, though not as prosperous and productive as the US capitalism, produced far more pollution and destroyed far more of the earth than Capitalism. Where do we find these countries you mention were people are massacred and large portions of the environment are destroyed? Not the capitalist countries. Capitalism is the best thing for the environment. Moot? How could you say something so unconsidered?

Gore’s film (among other things) is covered in junk science and shady connections – which is what I said in my first post. Even scientists who agree with his basic thesis (global warming is manmade) disagree with his evidence.

Does silt flowing out of rivers constitute such an extreme, rather over exaggerated and overly general statement such as “destroying the earth?” While I understand how one can use this phrase with correct implications, you seem to mean the that we are literally destroying the planet as a whole. And that simply is not true. If someone does not believe in God that does not mean that they will destroy the environment. To the contrary, modern environmentalism to many people is a religion in and of itself (after all, if god does not exist, only the world, then the world – stuff – becomes god). They worship the environment. Any alteration to the environment by man is a sin. Mankind is seen as a disease, a plague of the earth.

My question to you was what does greed and the wealthy have to do with global climate change, which was the topic. Many nations in Africa are restricted from utilizing electrical power to advance or use insecticides by organizations such as the UN for the purposes of “protecting the environment.” People die because of these environmental safety measures. It is easy to get caught up in the cause of saving the environment without examining the consequence of ones actions. Intentions don’t change reality.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 07:09:48 PM by nvseal »

Offline Will

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2007, 07:34:51 PM »
I was replying to calico, sorry was that directed at me? I'm so confused at the moment... ???
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Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2007, 07:54:08 PM »
The only reason we went there was because of the nukes.  I was there.  This was Bush's reason for going over there, since he couldn't pull the "Al Queda" card.


First, the "Bush lied" call has been uttered time and time again but it has no factual bases; it is just political rhetoric.
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Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2007, 07:58:07 PM »
Any government can be screwed and a democracy can be screwed as easily as any other form of government.  There is no "free market" in the U.S.  It's nearly (almost all) monopolized by a handful of wealthy, including the media.  That doesn't mean that everyone in the U.S. is evil, but with businessmen in the White House they aren't looking out for anyone but themselves. 

Even our founding fathers (in the U.S.) have addressed the fact that without men of character in power in our government there is no hope of true freedom.


Communism vs. Capitalism is by no means moot. The question is which one of these is the government of fools. Capitalism by definition cannot be ruined by fools in government because it is not ruled by them. That is what the free market means.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2007, 08:03:05 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges_Dam - do a search for heavy siltation.
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/Y1997E/y1997e1c.htm - we get our oxygen (fresh air) from trees
http://www.worldwildlife.org/endangered/ - a list


...rather over exaggerated and overly general statement such as “destroying the earth?”
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Offline Will

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2007, 08:04:03 PM »
I hate to break this all up but if we are to discuss US policy here lets at least try to connect it to energy and the earth or something. The war (along with nearly everything) is a touchy subject and now a road we need to go down in this thread. If you want you can start  a new one about it.

quick note- a lot of oxygen comes from plankton as well :)
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2007, 08:11:50 PM »
Gore's film isn't based upon junk science.

But, have you seen it?  He uses facts and he doesn't lie about the facts.

As far as what we're contributing to the atmosphere, I'm certain cars aren't as bad as those smoke stacks I see blowing up shit every day or how about the nuclear testing - what does that do to our atmosphere?  Are you kidding me that we can just blow up little miniature explosions like on the sun (sun spots) and it doesn't affect the Earth's thin atmosphere? 

Air / water pollution and nuclear explosions are exact examples of man destroying the Earth.  Does this mean that there won't be an Earth left?  No, I don't believe so.  Does it mean that human life and well being will be a rare commodity on the Earth, if we don't pull our heads out of our fairy tales?  I believe it does.

Semantics shouldn't enter into this argument.  A simple question of "Are we destroying the Earth by polluting it and blowing it up?" is enough.  We could be spending our time and energy on something valuable rather than ruining what we touch.  But, who really cares?


Gore’s film (among other things) is covered in junk science and shady connections – which is what I said in my first post. Even scientists who agree with his basic thesis (global warming is manmade) disagree with his evidence.
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Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2007, 08:13:59 PM »
LOL - thank goodness for plankton.

I've been discussing this with a guy at work as well as an old acquaintance almost since Bush started in office.  That's one of the blessings of living where freedom of speech is in the constitution.  Does it really bother you, Will?  How come?

I hate to break this all up but if we are to discuss US policy here lets at least try to connect it to energy and the earth or something. The war (along with nearly everything) is a touchy subject and now a road we need to go down in this thread. If you want you can start  a new one about it.

quick note- a lot of oxygen comes from plankton as well :)
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Offline Will

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Re: Bold political leadership!
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2007, 08:20:39 PM »
Because...Because.....because I'm a dictator! There I said it damn it! You can yell at me all you want but I'll never change!  ;)


No its just the fact that I like things to stay on topic, the way things are going are fine but back there it was a bit of a stretch. In my mind I fancy myself the mini-mod for the Open discussion page, I am, you could say territorial. Oh and you are getting dangerously cloud to my post count and I just can't have that  :P (just kidding)
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.