Martin,
"I would say that those Dr.'s were not very wise. But the wisdom of Americas founders remains." Me
"This is probably the finest example of cognitive dissociation" T-U
While your powerful arguments have convinced me that anyone who disagrees with you is very clearly, and deeply internally conflicted, perhaps even mentally ill, and certainly brainwashed (not to mention stupid). I nonetheless submit to you that it is not consensus that proves wisdom, but the passage of time.
"what else is there to be discussed if one uses arguments like these" T-U
It was your argument. I said something and than you said something that had nothing to do with what I said, and then you lambasted me for it. I spoke of philosophy and sovereignty and you brought up medicine. You write about the music industry and all manor of things never answering the first question. Does a man have the right to defend him self or not? If you say yes and then offer a "but", then your answer is really no. If the answer is just yes, than you cannot ban guns. Regulate perhaps, but ban, no.
Yes I read what you wrote about the difference between defence and killing. Perhaps when you awake at 3am to find a burglar in your home you will offer him a free psychoanalysis, try to find out if he planned only to steal from you, or if he was going to kill you and rape your wife and daughter too. Tell him about Sigmund freud. As everyone in your country is literate, he will know what you mean. Afterwords you can take him to the pub for a tall one.
As for me, my assumption is that anyone who breaks into my home is there to kill me. So yes you are correct again, someone is going to end up a casualty. I would rather die than fail my wife or son. Just to put this in perspective, When I was a baby my house was invaded, we were robed, and a family member was assaulted. That family member, to this day, cannot stand being alone in a house at night.
So Damn the social conscience of "progressive" thinking, and Don't tread on me!
"We Europeans" T-U
My response here is long and complex, but fun. So please read, since I read you:)
No, everything is not relative as you explained. I am not a secular humanist. The only things I hate more than post modernist thinking is modernist thinking, and the fact that I cannot escape either one internally or externally... One thing in particular I hate about modernism, is the requirement that history be forgotten, or rewritten to suit purpose.
Now I do not believe that a creative mind can be nihilistic, since a nihilist cannot create. But it is creative people who most often claim to be nihilist, particularly among musicians and image makers. A strange trend, but one which I believe is observable. The shooter in Denver claimed he was the Joker, did you see The Dark Knight Returns? The Joker represented Nihilism in the film, that is not just an opinion, that is the obvious philosophical cloak of the character in the film. They all but say so several times in the movie.
All mass murders are Nihilistic in their thinking. Not just the little dogs like in Denver, but the big dogs too; Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Franco. Then of course Europe has its little dogs just like the U.S.; Ryan, Michael Robert, Borel, Eric, Leibacher, Friedrich, Dornier, Christian, Bird, Derrick, Izquierdo, Antonio And Izquierdo, Emilio, Palic, Vinko.
Most if not all of these people denied the existence of God, if not verbally than by action, and thus any meaning to life. They believed they descended from animals, that they were animals. My point is not a religious one, but rather that atheism churns out Nihilists. Since if an atheist is honest with himself, he must become a nihilist, or he must delude himself to avoid it. I am not referring to ideas of religious people here, but of frederick niche.
And before anyone jumps on me about the mass murders committed by religious people, let me just say that by definition God must be just, and therefore cannot abide murder. A man *can* be religious, and an atheist at the same time. A man *can* be religious and a nihilist in his thinking and actions. Thanks to modernism and postmodernism. But whats my point?..
The point is that Europe's social system is producing Nihilists like a factory. And you have totally disarmed your selves! I am not talking about the little dogs, I am talking about the big dogs on their way! Was 50 years ago really so long ago? If the European Union fails, which it may very well do, you are all screwed! And I repeat, to disarm yourselves in this world is insane.
To close on this point, a Nihilist can do only one of two things; 1)Nothing. And, 2) Destroy.
You also said you grew up in a socially structured society, but all societies are socially structured. What you meant, based on the rest of what you wrote, is that in your society the social structure is such that the individual is less important than the community. That because, as you said, you are dependent on the state and cannot readily "fend for your selves" that it is a necessity to preserve the group over the individual.. You are Borg, resistance is futile.
You say that because everyone in your country in literate that you have a more equal chance at being successful. Then why, even per capita, is the U.S productivity so much higher than in europe? I submit to you that the appearance of any success from your beloved social policies comes much more as a result of your small population(s) relative to national GDP(s). That is to say, it is much easier to feed 10 million, than it is to feed three hundred million. What does this have to do with firearms? Nothing, I'm just responding to your attack. Yes, your arguments were much more bite than brain; See paragraph one of this post.
The reason some people refer to Hitler and stalin and Obama in the same breath, is not that people think obama is what they were. But the rhetoric is more of a way to describe Obamas cult of personality.
His followers here have literally done crazy tyrant style things. For example,
replacing the name of Jesus in religious songs with Obama and making public school children sing it.
Public school teachers have on several occasions, verbally attacked students for voicing doubts about Obamas quality or qualifications as President.
Also because of his repeated statements that America is unworthy, unfit, and backwards.
He insults our nations traditional religions while defending religions that have no real spiritual history in the U.S. And by defending I mean promote as equal. But if those religions have not done equal work to build America, how can they be equal.
There is a ton of reasons, not the least of which is his lack luster support for the jewish state, and several media Images of him in a Halo.
Then again there is his association with and appointment to office of, people who have expressed very extremist positions. No Im not going to find all the images and videos for you.
Oh yeah, then there is the Nobel Peace prize for not bringing peace to anyone or anything. People are really bothered by him, but his supporters will tell you its all about race.
Some of his supporters think Obama is the literal second coming of Christ.
I really am sick of the fighting over Obama. I personally do not find the rhetoric useful or intellectually sound. I just want him defeated in the next election. I simply don't think he has done a good job at anything.
You asked about the constitution.
If a man has a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, than the constitution must allow for the right to keep and bear arms. If a man does not have the right to defend his life and property, than he does not have a right to life. Rights do not come from men, if men give them, they can take them away. But You cannot take away my rights. Why is that? If you think the answer is simple, you a have the wrong answer.
"lack of morality as a result of survival".
Morality has nothing to do with survival. A righteous (morally upright and Just) man remains a righteous man in the face of adversity and tragedy. A wicked man is just as easily revealed by conflict. Consider those who gave their lives to save others during the shooting in denver. And compare them to the shooter.
Modernism, and post modernism especially, deny the existence of good and evil, right and wrong. One mans terrorist is another mans hero and so on. But what man can say a killer of babies is a hero, and also say of him self that he is righteous? So the belief system must exclude the notion of right and wrong or else the thinking must fall apart.
"Having a gun gives a false feeling of safety"
Only if your untrained. And not really prepared to shoot someone, then your screwed. I was a professional armed courier working with banks. so I am trained. Im not an expert, but I got a leg up on crack heads. Anyway most shooters take classes. You make to many assumptions and bold statements based on nothing, Martin.
"I really try to look at problems from a broad perspective without too much emotion or prejudgement" T-U
Try harder.
"So? As long as we don't know a motive then you can't draw conclusions yet"
I didn't draw a conclusion until this post above^^. Read more carefully.
"The foundation of US's society is that one takes care of himself" T-U
NOOOO!!!! You are absolutely completely and totally wrong! The foundation of america was that the people took care of one another, and left only defense, international relations and a few other things to the federal government. Everything else was left to the People, the state, and the CHURCH. Who took very good care of one another!
You have no Idea what your talking about here. None!
Ok
So I am impassioned and I fight, but I am not angry and yes I respect you, Martin, for a lot of reasons. But on this I do not think we could ever find agreement. But that is perfectly fine, since neither of us can vote in the others country, we can't effect one another. So I am safe from your ideas, and you are safe from mine. But believe me, I find your ideas as dangerous as you find mine.
I am glad to have met you in these forums, and I'm always glad to talk with you. Peace!
FrankB,
I was not cherry picking lol, I was debating fine points. Perhaps not as well as I needed to? But I would have cherry picked if I had the chance to plot tactics! lol, you guys did not give me the chance to be lazy.
To answer your statement, "I wish you could see that a gunless society is possible and has benefits?"
Yes, it is possible and has benefits. Germany was a gunless society for awhile, did your father, or grand father tell you about it? My grandfather on my mothers side told me about it. He was born in Germany, he left just in time to escape the "benefits of a gunless society". He eventually returned to his home land though, but he was caring a tank then. All of my uncles are named for dead men.
So I know about the benefits of your gunless society. And no, we are not jewish. Protestants actually, at least historically.
And yes I respect you too Frank, I hope my tone does not betray my good feelings for everyone here. I appreciate your calm and diplomatic approach to debate, very much. I hope we can passionately disagree again in the future.
T-U and I will certainly argue again, it seems neither one of us can stop our selves!
Peace Richard! (through superior firepower)
You guys have exhausted me, I quit.