Working with Blue Nodes 4 noobs

[bobbystahr]

I guess someone has to post this; might as well be me.
1. what do you do first.........
2. then.....
3. and then...........

Thanks in advance

[Dune]

First you figure out what each blue node does (wiki)...
then you read and gather all tgc's that are available, and there are a zillion...
then you dissect and try to understand what the blue network is doing, by trial and error and checking what happens....
then you build a fantastic world, which will astound the world 

But keep it simple to start with. I'm a noob too regarding blues, but I can understand a bit.

[bobbystahr]

So it's basically a system-less system that works as much by luck as knowledge I guess. If you only have, like me, basic arithmetic reading the wiki leads to reading a math text/dictionary to grok which I don't do well so I'm guessing it'll be luck or nada for me.
In other apps I have tested with node networking I have found they mostly give a verbose definition pop up and often samples of the node in a simple network...The presets we have are fine as they are but really need expanding into a library so at least the math impaired hobbiest can get to creating without having to take remedial math class.

[bobbystahr]

Guess y'all can tell I woke with a head ache...sorry for my attitude today...Think I'll put myself back to bed....

[Oshyan]

The Blue Nodes are unlike nodes in *most* other applications you probably use. World Machine has nothing like them, if that's one of your reference points. They are highly math-oriented and specifically intended for building things from smaller pieces for those who have the math knowledge required. I get that it's frustrating to see that some things seem *only* possibly with blue nodes and not other, easier to use nodes, but that's really just the benefit that one can get from the deeper math understanding needed to achieve those results.

The learning resources are out there if you want to dive into it, free or cheap (e.g. Kahn Academy). But if you can't get your head around the math (as I can't!), then you just have to accept that Blue Nodes are not for you, or at best you have to stick to re-using and minorly tweaking other people's setups. Again, this is not an issue of documentation so much as it is one of fundamental *outside* knowledge. You really need a solid foundation in math(s) to properly take advantage of them, that's simple reality. I see this issue come up over and over again, and I understand why; there's clearly a lot of power there and everyone wants to access it. But it requires a significant investment of learning/knowledge to use *by its very nature*.

- Oshyan

[archonforest]

But it should not be like this Oshyan. Knowledge should be for all who is reaching and not only for math professors. There should be write up what these nodes are doing for the rest of the people.
Maybe some of the Power users could make some short write ups with a little anim or something?

[Oshyan]

I think you're still missing the reality of the situation. The documentation for most of the blue nodes is already in the Wiki, it just doesn't tell you what you want to know, which is how to create things in graphics using math. This is a much broader subject that is not specific to TG. The functions that the blue nodes have are mostly *standard math functions*. Understanding how to use them to make graphics is far beyond the realm of TG and its documentation, it's much more fundamental, and *requires* a grounding in certain math knowledge. To go further in the documentation would essentially require us to write a whole course in basic graphics+math education, which is pretty well beyond the scope of what we're focused on (and able to approach, time-wise). This is also something that many other authors have already tackled very well. For example the classic:
http://www.amazon.com/Texturing-Modeling-Third-Procedural-Approach/dp/1558608486/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434046313&sr=8-1&keywords=ken+musgrave
Or:
http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Graphics-Principles-Practice-3rd/dp/0321399528/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434046284&sr=8-1&keywords=graphics+programming
Or:
http://www.amazon.com/Math-Primer-Graphics-Game-Development/dp/1568817231/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1434046281&sr=8-3&keywords=graphics+math

- Oshyan

[archonforest]

Thanks for the clarification but telling the truth sometimes I try to understand a node from the Wiki and I feel like I have to be George Boole to understand what is written there. There is a lot of significance over there but no picture or anim that can show what they do. Some visuals could help those who does not have a doctorate from Math

[Oshyan]

We have been working with a user to add some visuals to many commonly-used nodes, but the simple reality is that many - if not most - of the blue nodes cannot be demonstrated by themselves in a visual way. By their very nature they often have to be connected to other nodes to show *anything*. Again, the blue nodes are a different type of node with a different purpose and a different kind of user in mind. For many users they are frankly best ignored, or only ever used when utilizing a pre-made clip file. In the future a Macro system will help hide some of the complexities of such setups.

- Oshyan

[archonforest]

Alright thx

[WAS]

*Seizures out*

Well then. 

Thanks for the input guys. I've tried some dabbling, like some extreme cracked rocks. With some more tuning it could be a fake stone shader with more control cause it's pretty floaty right now lol

[Hetzen]

I'd like to chime in here.

For me the great thing about Terragen, is that it is almost open architecture.

My background is having a fascination with analogue synthesizers. Where you could connect anything to anything and often come up with shit. What was my breakthrough with sound is understanding how waveforms can be shaped with other inputs.

What's similar here, is that you have something very simple. A black to white fractal as the core of everything.

Lets take thin cracks. I have a black and white fractal. If I offset the same fractal by 10cm in x and z, then subtract that from the original, you end up with an outline which is 10cm thick in x and z. Because you have taken white away from white. 1 - 1 = 0.

What you have to learn is that Terragen will interpret these values in it's unique way. So if I take 0 - 1 as a connection, then I will get -1 as an answer, which is important if I want to connect that to a displacement node, because guess what, the displacement will be negative one meter. If you don't want to have negative values, you either clamp the output, or you turn negative into positive values with the abs node.

An understanding of what each function will do to the chain is extremely useful to be able to shape the chain to what you are trying to achieve. Which leads me on to the next point.

I spend a lot of time thinking how I can create stuff, which gets me into abstract ways on what I need to do to get there. So you have to have a train of thought to apply those blue nodes. Connecting shit to shit often ends up with shit.

It really helps to have a mental visual of what you think should happen, then bash that against the networks to see if you are right. A lot of times you are wrong. But when you get it right, you've often just built something nobody else has made. And that's bloody awesome.

Blues are the fundamental building blocks of all the red shaders. Matt has put a few together to make life simple. But no matter how good Matt is, he can't think of every scenes requirement and has given everyone the opportunity to build there own solution.

I really like that.

[bobbystahr]

See, that must be my problem, everytime I stop to think about what I want to make I just wind up playing my guitar. I'm thinking that as a math impaired colourblind musician, TG3 is going to have to stay an amusement rather than a real creative tool for me. I just spent 1 whole day trying to design a strata colour shader with PFs and the colour part threw me for a real loop. Finally I found a strata image and stole the colours for the PFs from it with Colour Spy and I think it's sorta cool but will get heavy critique when I post the image as all my colour attempts have. Mainly why I have been working with image maps for texture.

[bobbystahr]

The analogue synthesizer is a nice analogy to compare to. Also those modular systems can be massive and complex but what sounds could be built is not always knowing what exactly you are going to get. Just plugging cables into various inputs reminds me of nodal systems.

heh heh, the only pedal I use for my guitar is a tuner...I kinda like the sound of an unaltered guitar, so I guess I'm not a nodal dude....When I've needed sounds for my work I have always tended to take my small recorder out and find them in real life...bit of a luddite I guess.

[Hetzen]

The analogue synthesizer is a nice analogy to compare to. Also those modular systems can be massive and complex but what sounds could be built is not always knowing what exactly you are going to get. Just plugging cables into various inputs reminds me of nodal systems.

That's all true. But putting a gate signal into an oscillator's amplification is only going to get you so far. You have to understand what you have done to realise that an LFO multiplying that signal is going to get you to the next stage.

If you have a fractal that has an output of -1 to +1 (assuming you are not clamping colours) to get that to drive a displacement node, you have to multiply that signal by how many meters you want that to displace. 1 x (constant of 10) = 10. So your maximum displacement from that fractal will be 10 meters.