Suni vs Shea in Syria

Started by PabloMack, May 07, 2014, 07:56:21 PM

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Its too much to write on Pablo. This topic is beyond complex. But I have no idea what your talking about when you describe the Trinity for one. 
It has been eaten.


Without religion all is much easier to understand guys ;)
Although not that there are other many stupid reasons for people to fight for unfortunately.


Fortunately, I am not fighting for anything on this subject. I'm just interested in Badger's take on it. I've had enough religious battles in my personal life. I'm just fishing for different people's take on things like this. My motive is that my life has inspired me to start writing screenplays. Hearing different people's view on religion will help me form the different characters in the stories. All input is appreciated.


Quote from: PabloMack on May 13, 2014, 01:08:08 PM
Fortunately, I am not fighting for anything on this subject...

That was a general statement not about you Pablo. But good to know anyway.


Quote from: PabloMack on May 12, 2014, 09:21:52 AM

On the other hand, the Quran was written by one man claiming that Gabriel gave him this information directly from God....

A small point, I think written is not the correct term. As I read the explanation, it was heard and then recited and copied down by others.

The Quran indicates Muhammad himself did not read or write :
     7:157  "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them."


Fleetwood: This is very interesting. The way it reads I would think it was talking about Jesus (not Muhammed) whom the Gospel is all about. "Gospel" is a word that is used to basically describe the story of Jesus ( The four books are "The Gospel according to Matthew", and the same for Mark, Luke and John. Many also believe that Jesus was foretold in the Torah, especially in Isaiah. And, of course, the Torah is that part of the Christian Bible that is used by the Jews. Since Muhammed's time was about 600 A.D. he knew all about the Gospel and the Torah and the Quran comments on them quite a bit. My Moslem friend calls Jesus a prophet and we all know that Jesus didn't write any of the Bible himself (which includes both the Torah and the Gospel). The verse that you quote indicates that many who would become or were already Moslem had access to reading the books of the Jews and the Christians. My Moslem friend says (in his own words) that Muslims regard Jesus more highly that even Christians do, though I doubt that would be possible since standard line Christianity claims Jesus to be God (as part of the Trinity).

It is common for people to generalize the term Gospel to all religions as some people call a Mosque a "Moslem Church". I think they are both corruptions of their original meanings.


The very next verse 7:158  may help clarify who is meant by the Messenger  :

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided.


It doesn't make sense that he would refer to himself in the third person as "the Messenger written about in the Gospel" and then in the next verse announce himself as the same Messenger in the first person. He wasn't around six centuries earlier to be written about in the Gospel so clearly he is talking about two different messengers; first is Jesus "the messenger written about in the Gospel" then he announces himself as "the messenger of Allah to you all". Arabic does have definite articles so it would be likened to calling the sun "the light of the day" while the moon is "the light of the night". There is only one of each so the definite article "the" would be appropriate in both cases.


I don't take it as words of Muhammad talking about himself. I read it as Gabriel speaking to Muhammad and he is telling Muhammad, that he, (Muhammad) was previously foretold as the unlettered prophet in the writings of the Torah.

Who knows ? I'm not a scholar of any of these things, I just like to find out what I can. Uncontested 1400 year old facts are hard to come by without a time machine, let alone 2000 years, or 4000 years. Especially difficult when various groups want a certain thing to be true or untrue.


Okay. I think I understand now. So you are saying reference is made to two different messengers. The first one is interpreted to be Muhammed and the second one is interpreted to be Gabriel.

In the "soft sciences" like paleontology they often use "Occam's Razor" as a guiding principle. Paleontologists simply call it "parsimony". The most straight-forward explanation is usually correct:'s_razor. As you know, however, religious literature is often intentionally written to be arcane. Religious fanatics are usually people who prefer mystery and irrationality over facts and logic.

The Quran is full of the same stories that are in the Bible and especially the Torah. The roles of the characters are often reversed as with Isaac and Ishmael. It wouldn't surprise me that Muhammed might be substituted for Jesus when a vague allusion is made. I actually expect it because there is so much of it in the Quran. I think we all agree that the Torah was written first. Jesus came much later and Muhammed came much later than that. So it is well known that Muhammed had the Bible and the Torah in hand to study and plan his strategy while those who went before him did not have that advantage where the Quran is concerned. You are correct in that people believe what they want to believe. But when it goes far against the grain of what is known then it can really be stretching it far to want to believe certain things like the re-interpretations of old works as you have pointed out. The Jews complain that the Christians re-interpret the Torah in ways that disagree with their belief system. There is one difference in the relationship between Judaism and Christianity vs. those two and Islam. Jesus said he didn't come to change the law but to fulfill it. If I had to venture a guess at how Muhammed might "honestly" summarize the purpose for his life it would be that he didn't come to add more to the same story but to rewrite it so that the Ishmaelites were the "chosen ones" and not the Jews. But "chosen for what?" is my million dollar question that no one seems to be asking. If they all knew what that meant then I don't think anyone would be so eager to fill those shoes.  :-\

It's a little funny that the spell checker on this website wants me to correct the spelling from "Muhammed" to "Mohammed" while Wikipedia translates "Mohammed" to "Muhammed". Seems that people can't even agree on "known facts" sometimes.  :o

Great discussion, fleetwood. I hope you find the answers to your questions. Looking back on these religious battles, it looks like it may be little more than an ancient "sibling rivalry" in a struggle for control, power and wealth. And the Suni vs. Shea battles just go to show you that Islam is no more immune to ideological corruption than any other belief system.


Quote from: fleetwood on May 13, 2014, 04:30:24 PMThe Quran indicates Muhammad himself did not read or write :

I did a little more research and I now realize I was in error when I said that the Quran was written by one man. Indeed, fleetwood was correct in that Muhammed didn't write any of the Quran and probably was illiterate. On the other hand, Jesus was not illiterate but was apparently fluent in speaking and readying at least Hebrew and Aramaic and possibly Greek. But neither took part in the composition of the books that were later written about them.

After thinking about it some more I came to the realization that "John the Baptist" is the most logical one to have been "the unlettered messenger" talked about in the Gospel and foretold in the Torah. He wrote no letters as Paul and the other apostles did. But he did come to announce the coming of Jesus and he did not do it by writing.

I have found Malachi 3:- "Behold I will send my messenger and he shall prepare the way before me".  I can now understand why the Moslems don't think that this messenger was John the Baptist but the Christian do. This messenger has to come before whoever "me" is who is talking. Since the Christians claim that Jesus is God then it would logically be John the Baptist. But the Moslems don't think God has come yet (and neither do the Jews) so they must look forward in time (six centuries later) to find their messenger. I wonder who the Jews think this messenger is. Are there any among you who can answer this question?


Who cares.

Its like asking who gave the golden tablets to Joseph smith... No one. Because it did not happen. Islam is really not that interesting. And as to its value to humanity, I say look at the consequences of its effect on the world. Look at Africa, look at the middle east and large parts of Asia.

What more do we need to know?
It has been eaten.


Not sure that all those things u mention Badger happened coz of the religion itself but most probably coz of stupid people. Like in the name of God(the Christian one) many people were killed tortured...etc. Dont think God said that this should be done.
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Never mind.  These topics have been written on for almost two thousand years. There really is not anything else to say. Believe what you understand to be true, and accept the consequences. That is all that can be done.
It has been eaten.


Jesus is the messiah, even in Islam. His name is Issa, Al Massih Issa to be precise.
The only difference between catholiism and islam, on Jesus, is that islam rejects trinity idea. Jesus is a man, nothing more. And so, he shouldn't deserve a cult. But, he is the equal of Moise, Abraham or Muhamad.

Now, that makes me laugh when I read that the problem in Middle East is Islam, or in Syria.
The problem there is that they have oil, and that USA wants it. So they do their best to bring chaos in those countries, come with an army, and take over everything they can.
That has nothing to do with religion.