Dates

Started by rcallicotte, June 23, 2008, 08:26:52 pm

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rcallicotte

Unless you're a programmer and have the data to show otherwise, your statement isn't accurate.  Actually, dates are critical for any project.  It's a real world statistic.  Software development needs a clear project deadline, even if there are end-users that change everything around 20 times.  But, in this case, Planetside actually has the liberty to be their own project manager and they are their own end-users that they need to satisfy.  Requirements for TG2 come from them.  So Planetside is in the best shape to create their own dropdead dates.

Really, you should consider getting into the world of development long enough to find out how many people / companies would agree with you about a date.

Stop acting the authority, unless you have something real to show.  I'm listening.


Quote from: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 10:37:52 am
What I disagree with you on, Calico, is the idea of getting date.  I think we've proven that getting dates does nothing.

So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Zylot

I think you put way too much context into anything I say.  I *again* state that I am not the authority on anything.  My statement of knowing that a date won't help stems solely from the fact that we've had dates from planetside before that have yielded nothing.  They came and went.

This is why I proposed a much more interactive (IE, PS interacting with it's users to give them up-to-date info) way of showing us how far along the process is and when we'll likely see a release.  Instead of some shimmering object in the distance, we have a path to walk along (so to speak).

I'd like to hear your ideas on that, the bulk of my previous post, as opposed to just another attack on my charatcer based on one line in the whole post taken way out of context.

Maybe instead of asking for yet another release date, we should *all* work together tog et something more concrete so we don't feel so lef tin the dark.

Harvey Birdman

You want to all work together on something meaningful? Demand the crooks give everyone their money back. Anything else is just opening the door to more BS from Planetside.

They have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't give a rats ass about the integrity of their promises to us. So what is the point on insisting on more 'commitment' from them? They will lie through their teeth yet again, and in the end they will exploit your trust and use it to rip off more people.

Planetside is crooked. Deal with it. They've stolen from every one who paid early, and it's clearly the only modus operandi they know.

rcallicotte

Zylot, this is the main problem.  You see, this is what has already been done in TG .9, where we just encourage and hope for updates, while knowing that is likely there might not be a 1.0.  In my opinion (here goes, JimB  ;D ), the way to break that and get to a valid end-result is for the programmers to create a timeline and stay with it.  The announcing of this timeline, while eliminating more users buying something that is in an Alpha state by having a time limit on when sales of the Alpha version are available, could help alleviate the constant stuff we're dealing with here. 

Then, when it's live, the people who trusted Planetside and bought beforehand are rewarded with the final beauty.  Those who waited to see what happens would now have to pay that chunk of change.  It's my opinion, as was JimB's  ;D, that the final should be expensive.  There will be nothing available out there, including Vue, that could do what TG2 could do, once working correctly.


Quote from: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 11:14:05 am
I think you put way too much context into anything I say.  I *again* state that I am not the authority on anything.  My statement of knowing that a date won't help stems solely from the fact that we've had dates from planetside before that have yielded nothing.  They came and went.

This is why I proposed a much more interactive (IE, PS interacting with it's users to give them up-to-date info) way of showing us how far along the process is and when we'll likely see a release.  Instead of some shimmering object in the distance, we have a path to walk along (so to speak).

I'd like to hear your ideas on that, the bulk of my previous post, as opposed to just another attack on my charatcer based on one line in the whole post taken way out of context.

Maybe instead of asking for yet another release date, we should *all* work together tog et something more concrete so we don't feel so lef tin the dark.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Ironshirt

I don't want my money back.  I'm very happy with what I have at the moment and will get in the future - so please,please stop talking for all and clear this per PM!

If we have look at the gallery, we can see that TG2 is already far better than a 'not finished something'....

Zylot

An actively updated timeline is exactly what I feel we need.  I think Oyshan said earlier that if he were to state the current projected release date, it wouldn't help at all, or something along those lines...  lets see...

"If we were to give a release date, to be truly "safe" it would have to be much further in the future than would really bring anyone comfort anyway. I think it's clear from past history that specifying dates just doesn't work and doesn't make anyone happier for long."

I think that summed it up.  He's wrong though, I feel that even if the date is a year down the line, or more, at least it shows a realistic and accurate figure we can hold to. 

Even more so, if it were backed up with an active timeline, updates on what's now working, what's fixed, what the current focus, etc.. (frequently mind you, not once a month or what have you) then we'd have much more of a trust built between the increasingly worried/aggrivated users and the devs. 

Harvey Birdman

These suggestions have been repeatedly made and ignored. What you guys don't understand is that they don't want to show a schedule. Not because it would put pressure on them, but because it would lead to just this sort of scene eventually, when it became clear, once again, that they had no intention of sticking to it.

The only people who would be unhappy with an honest statement of PS's intentions would be Planetside. Their fraudently acquired revenue stream would dry up. So they keep lying and the money keeps coming in.

JimB

Quote from: Harvey Birdman on June 25, 2008, 12:30:39 pm
What you guys don't understand is that they don't want to show a schedule.


It's none of our business what their schedule is; I know I wouldn't show it. It's not our company and they don't owe us anything in that way.

Some people seem to think they have a right to make Planetside's decisions for them. Big mistake.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

Zylot

JimB:

Calico and Myself are discussing what can be done to restore some of the faith in the fact that we'll get a final product.  though we both clearly disagree on a number of points, I don't think tossing around ideas that big a deal.

If planetside wants to impliment or supply any of the items we discuss is entirely up to them, but I think it's as important that they know how their user base feels, is as equally as important that we know what's going around with development.  Open communication is the key.

JimB

Zylot, that's all well and good, and I really do agree that keeping the clinet based informed can be a good thing.

However, I really don't believe the forum has an implicit right to demand to know what's going on. A good example is World machine. Stephen very wisely set up a blog; Very simple, very clean, very manageable. The occasional note to say "I've done this" and "I'm doing that". But, it still doesn't mean we should be expected to be told everything, because what they tell us they also tell the world, and that includes any competition or potential competition. And then if they schedule it in public, all the competition has to do is assign half a dozen code monkeys to the task and strive to release it before Planetside can. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Wanting to know is fully understandable, but that doesn't really mean it's a right to know. Planetside have a been a trillion times more accommodating to the forum than most companies would be IMHO, and I think a balance has tipped just a bit too much the wrong way. Then when they understandably do keep stuff under wraps, which is strictly speaking commercial information, there's a riot.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

PG

Quote from: calico on June 25, 2008, 11:01:20 am
Unless you're a programmer and have the data to show otherwise, your statement isn't accurate.  Actually, dates are critical for any project.


Ubisoft don't agree with you there  ;D

Harvey: I've noticed a couple of times that you've said planetside have admitted to lying about the release dates. Where exactly did they say this?
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

Oshyan

Harvey's statement is a mischaracterization of something I said earlier in this thread:
QuoteIf we were to give a release date, to be truly "safe" it would have to be much further in the future than would really bring anyone comfort anyway. I think it's clear from past history that specifying dates just doesn't work and doesn't make anyone happier for long.

By which I simply meant that it would be foolish for us to set another release date and then miss it, as has unfortunately happened several times before. We have never set a release date without the intention of meeting it, but it has become clear that we have made incorrect estimates in the past, and so we have decided not to make public estimates anymore.

It's not that we expect to be unaccountable, nor that we don't have a sense of the time pressure here - believe me we are well aware of that. It is simply that we are working as hard as we can and the release will be available as soon as it can, and trying to say publicly when we think that will be has clearly not worked well in the past. That is simply an unfortunate reality. When it is certain that release is imminent we can safely announce it and avoid breaking promises, and I think that is in everyone's best interest.

- Oshyan


rcallicotte

June 25, 2008, 03:20:56 pm #57 Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 03:33:35 pm by calico
Tell me, Oshyan, how this is really different than the last missed 1.0.  You see, I never bought that for the same reason I wouldn't buy this now, if I knew there wouldn't be an actual due date.  Can you see the whole industry going this way - telling your customers to keep waiting, but I really mean it this time?  I just wonder how anyone here can keep just thinking Planetside is just believable, no matter what you do.

I'll go by what you do.  No release means there is no release.  It really calls into question everyone's integrity from top to bottom.  It's too bad for you guys that it's this way, but to keep taking abuse from all of the people on this website for wanting what I paid for is really a far reach.



Quote from: Oshyan on June 25, 2008, 02:44:46 pm
It's not that we expect to be unaccountable, nor that we don't have a sense of the time pressure here - believe me we are well aware of that. It is simply that we are working as hard as we can and the release will be available as soon as it can, and trying to say publicly when we think that will be has clearly not worked well in the past. That is simply an unfortunate reality. When it is certain that release is imminent we can safely announce it and avoid breaking promises, and I think that is in everyone's best interest.

- Oshyan


So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

rcallicotte

They have dates and missing them hurts most companies, game companies included.  The two main differences are:

1.  Ubisoft doesn't release their product until it's finished
2.  The Ubisoft people are gaming, which represents a lot of young people and not a lot of businesses.  Business software doesn't work this way.


Quote from: PG on June 25, 2008, 02:19:24 pm
Quote from: calico on June 25, 2008, 11:01:20 am
Unless you're a programmer and have the data to show otherwise, your statement isn't accurate.  Actually, dates are critical for any project.


Ubisoft don't agree with you there  ;D

Harvey: I've noticed a couple of times that you've said planetside have admitted to lying about the release dates. Where exactly did they say this?
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

rcallicotte

JimB,

Your expectations are clearly based upon your working relationship with Planetside and / or their product.  But, your level of expectation should be that you get what you were promised, which probably isn't a stretch for someone already connected to all of this.  If the customer base for Planetside is the same as the Vue crowd, then I'd say the level of professionalism and meeting customers where they are might have some influence on the market.  This is especially true if someone like eOn comes up with a new package similar to TG2.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?