Started by rcallicotte, June 23, 2008, 08:26:52 pm

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Harvey Birdman

Greg - 6 months ago I'd have been glad to help. (I did read the thread.) Now, I won't do anything that is going to support PS's sales and marketing. Sorry, man - nothing personal.


ffs HB,
This isn't about planetside man, its about my animation.  Please distinguish between the artists and the toolmakers.  Help a  brother out, lol.

Harvey Birdman


That was the first thing I've seen here in a long time that made me smile.

I'll look at it and if I come up with anything I'll email you. Probably not till tomorrow. Still can't connect function networks to paramater values on other shaders/objects... that was the first thing I thought of. Then you could have had individual offset values for the different ships, and animated them with a common mathematically described trajectory...

Have you thought of using Vue?



Awesome!  Thanks.


I am not going to go away nor am I going to give any one here one red cent, let alone $200 end of story. I too just for the record am on of those who pre-purchased, but for the here and now am perfectly happy with the lot I have, clearly not every one is; and I have got off on the wrong foot then let me say ten thousand pardons to whom ever it was.

Every one is entitled to state their case I have stated mine others have theirs, so lets agree to disagree and move along.

Regards to you.


Harvey Birdman

Yeah... sorry. That was probably uncalled for. I'm pretty pissed about this situation.

And that's the ONLY thing in this thread I apologize for.


June 25, 2008, 03:12:42 am #36 Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 03:14:51 am by zhotfire
Hi folks! Opinions for everyone! Yay!  ;)

TG has been (and still is) one of my favorite hobbies. It introduced me to 3D landscape art... for free!
I dabbled for hours and loved every minute of it... so for the price of 2 video games, I bought a license so I could render 0.9x images larger and support the people who made the program (the credit towards the next version was a nice incentive too).

So here we are, after PS made the mistake of offering us the chance to work with a beta and to save some dough on the final product. I fully accept that I'm working(playing) with beta software, with complex bits of code that could explode at any moment destroying the universe! :o Well, maybe not, but I understand how one change can create an exponential problem leading to unexpected delays, work-a-rounds and sometimes a complete re-think of how to go about a particular task.

I also understand why some are "concerned" about the mounting delays. You've paid for a product and expect it to be delivered by the date quoted. If the delays are unacceptable, you should look for another product. If you no longer want the finished product you've paid for, then ask for a refund. Those who were relying on the final release for their livelyhood should ask themselves why they invested in a program that was in beta and undoubtedly destined for delays (that's the way betas usually work).  :(

For me, as I said, just a hobby. I'm willing to wait for the final product. That said, I have several other toys to play with, so I have plenty to keep me busy until that day arrives.

Peace, love and patience everyone...


Quote(by the analogy, asking for a new cheeseburger because they messed up the first one, and then actually receiving one), then it might be fine.

The thing is, once you complain about your 'cheeseburger', do you get a humble apology and a perfect replacement as compensation or, does the patty-flipper spit in it, for your trouble?

There's a thing called diplomacy, that goes a long way when there are disgruntled parties, on either side.
Many are annoyed about the delay (and the possibility in their minds, that their purchased hamburger is never coming!), but a fussy customer rarely recieves the courtesy they feel they are due, it's nice to be nice in other words.
PS clearly have the patience for their product but, do they have the tolerance for the near-abuse in some of these threads? Yup, they've f*cked up by releasing dates when they could have waited but, I believe they are working hard for it, their mistakes are known to them better than known to us because, their own reputations are resting on this. Life/reputations/Christ, mental health even, can be broken after so much pissing and moaning is directed towards you. Over $200/£100? Would you break lifes/companies for that when they are clearly still trying to meet your demands?
Matt's doing well not to have just pulled the plug on this forum(or the entire project). Or said 'Right, let's get me a gun, this isn't worth it!' Then, maybe, once the burger company's done a runner with your $200 and abandoned you at the counter, there'd be a right to call him a fraudster, theif, etc. Not when the poor guy's drowning in a sea of fussy customers and still trying(for his benefit AND yours) to tread water. Jo has even said, in this thread, that this is doing his BP no good! C'mon, those guys aren't here to bring their personal lifes into this, we're all lucky their still taking this into their lives though! I don't know that I'd want to stick with it.

PS have not done a runner with anyones money. They are still here and working through it. No one wants TG2 more than them, I'm assuming. This is a public place, and surely, their lives/reputations would be finished in this business, were they to run.

Maybe though, I'm the fool. Some people/companies DO take your trust for weakness.
And ones like me, who still believe that a man's word is his bond, are usually the ones that end up standing at the counter, smiling politely, twiddling thumbs patiently, as the numbers of staff behind the counter first begins to dwindle, tapping my fingers now, and glancing more often with each minute at my watch, as the cleaner comes in with his mop, then realising there's no one here but me...
I don't see that happening here but, maybe I am the fool... At least I've not bought it yet!

Everyone's unhappy with the wait, I do appreciatte the pre-purchaser's anguish in all of this but, hostility really makes things worse all round for everyone, is my point.


It's really none of your business, if Harvey wants his money back.

Quote from: Zylot on June 25, 2008, 12:06:37 am
Chill out, it's a peice of software.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?


What final product?  Who told you there will actually be one and told you a due date?

Quote from: zhotfire on June 25, 2008, 03:12:42 am
I'm willing to wait for the final product.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?


I bought TG2 under Planetside's announcement that there would be a due date of the end of 2007.  This is the only reason I purchased it - a finished product and not full of bugs.  I understand Matt's and Jo's frustrations and their possible helpless feelings at this point.  So I'm not disregarding that.  What would help them (and us, since we paid for it) would be to set realistic dates and then work like it matters to hit that date.  Nothing else will help this situation.

What we have is an open tendency to not finish something and that is killing Planetside's reputation. 

Suck up, if you want, by slamming me for being reasonable.  But, I'm not going to be the only one who notices this behavior.  My expectation is that it will change.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?


I also have an asshole and am entitled to vent it just like anyone else, including you Harvey. I don't like being called a 'surrogate' though, as I have my own independent opinion of the app and Planetside, am not affiliated to them in any way being just as much a customer as anyone else here, and my own independent opinion is I think it costs peanuts and should cost a lot more. That would sort out all of these problems almost overnight. But that's for them to decide and in the meantime I'm happy to use it. As I've said elsewhere, if the same hysterical accusations were made against British builders, 90% of them would be locked up in prison permanently. I sincerely hope that in future Planetside rethink their business model and go for a higher price to pay for the kind of capabilities that some here seem to demand and get pissed off about when (surprise, surprise) things take longer than anyone, including the makers, expected. In the meantime I think it's more than worth its cost, is useable if you apply some smarts, and I will happily continue to use it on a daily basis. I've used fully-fledged 3D s/w software costing over 50 times as much, that does only 20 times what TG does (including extortionate yearly maintenance rates for an upgrade and even the notion of direct support), screw up so royally and be delayed in official release versions that what's going on with TG2 is laughable in comparison.

They're not fraudsters or thieves, especially after you haven't even asked for your money back but instead decided to make outrageous accusations on a public forum. They're just later than planned with delivery and are working their arses off to make it right. As far as I'm concerned they're honourable guys who made over-optimistic projections. But I have to add they were made after considerable ranting and raving on this very forum. If they were builders they'd be demanding more money for that, which they're not.

My asshole, my fart.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.


Don't think I'm sucking up Calico, not the case. There's nothing more sickening than an ass licker. I just think that things can only go from bad to worse when there is more negative fuel being added to the fire. I've no argument with anyone here.

My opinion on the matter of refunds is, anyone who has bought any product and, is unsatisfied with it in any way, is completely within their rights to just ask and recieve it, without qualm, given that proof of the purchase is produced AND only upon return of the said product to the distributors. Simple.
And who wants to be stuck behind a fussy customer in a queue, who's shouting and making a show at the 'charlatans, theives, useless planks, fraudsters, etc.' who run this place?
Joe Public is stuck behind that idiot who had a complaint and couldn't just settle it ammicably(this is analogous, before anyone comes at me with 'who're you calling an idiot?'), who is making everyone late for the rest of the day.

I don't know, maybe Matt is ignoring/refusing people if they have asked for refunds personally and that's why there is need to move onto the next closest method of communication, these forums. I don't think so.

And, if no one's noticed, PS aren't rising to the goading in these threads anyway, they don't have a date, and have said in past threads that they will not give one anymore, if I remember correctly.

More positive feedback from them about actual developement would be very much appreciated by everyone though.

Calico, I understand your frustration. I have no argument with you, man.


To make sure I'm clear, I'm not presently accusing Planetside of fraud. 

What I think might be a good idea, to go along with what JimB stated, would be if Planetside would just set a date for this low price, say in a few months.  After that date, the software would no longer be available in its broken state.  Then, once it is actually finished, 2.0, GOLDEN, wahlah the software will be available for sale at the new retail price, which I assume will be much more expensive.

This way, if people want to get in early, they have a deadline and Planetside can show they mean to provide a final product that is not broken.  Of course, when it comes out as a completed program, then the price will skyrocket.  But, those who have had good faith in Planetside will have been blessed by getting in on the ground level.

This or any other plan that eliminates this wilderness of paying customers getting Alpha software that has no final date would redeem Planetside's reputation for TG2.  What other ideas are feasible?  Of course, Planetside can blow this off, but it might help and that's where I'm aiming.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?


See, I am all bout Harvey getting his money back, I feel it's justified.  What I disagree with you on, Calico, is the idea of getting date.  I think we've proven that getting dates does nothing.

What *I* would like to see, is some sort of dev blog/timeline.

A list of things: "This is what we need before the next update" and "This is what we need before gold"

Kinda like:
1) Blah blah
2) SSS
3) Fix bug xyz
4) add this
5) words

6) fix bug abc [currently being worked on]
7 -> 17) items already fixed in the dev process.

Do you see what I mean here, I know my example sucks but that's the jist of it.  We need more active information, we need to see not some arbitrary when, but an easy to understand why.  If we can see how far off they are from any update or beta candidate, we'll have a much clearer idea of what's going on then just "we're releasing it in Sept."