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General => Terragen Discussion => Topic started by: Oshyan on December 12, 2007, 11:10:04 PM

Title: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 12, 2007, 11:10:04 PM
We realize that many of you will have questions and concerns regarding the Terragen 2 release date announcement (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2940) and the delay until Q1 2008. We welcome you to post your thoughts below and we'll do our best to address all your questions and comments.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on December 12, 2007, 11:35:00 PM
I prefer a late release than a too early release with a full bag of bugs !
keep going on your good job guys !
we are with you ! (well at least i am)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: philhoole on December 12, 2007, 11:51:50 PM
With the Deep version, will it be possible to use the 3 render nodes to work to work on a single image? That would be brilliant combined with the multicore support.

Thanks
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 12, 2007, 11:58:14 PM
With the Deep version, will it be possible to use the 3 render nodes to work to work on a single image? That would be brilliant combined with the multicore support.

Thanks
You could certainly do this by using crop regions. We will be working on making GI more consistent across crop boundaries in a single image, so this will hopefully be less of an issue. If you're not using GI then the crop region solution works well even now. You simply have to assemble the finished image in a basic image editor from the separately rendered crop regions. We will not be providing a network system to automatically render single frames over a network at this point however.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mr_Lamppost on December 13, 2007, 01:18:29 AM
EXCELLENT news  ;D ;D ;D

I completely agree that a small delay is better than a rushed product full of bugs.


Better yet  :-*

The date for the beta is the day after I get back from the holidays.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on December 13, 2007, 02:53:24 AM
Yup, no biggy. Standing joke at an old employer of mine was 'Why do it right when you can do it first?'

I think I'd rather see it right.   :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on December 13, 2007, 03:41:08 AM
Thanks for letting us know.  This is very good news.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: RealUser on December 13, 2007, 07:06:13 AM
Really no problem for me. I have currently no time for TG anyhow, there is some music hardware waiting for soundscapes, ;-) union work is eating up much of my private time and christmas is coming ... busyyyyyyy!
Take the time you need guys!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 13, 2007, 09:58:45 AM
NO problum, give me more time to get the cash to prepurchase.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on December 13, 2007, 10:40:06 AM
In reference to the section of the announcement about Multiple 3D previews, what processes such as collapsible windows, nestable windows or window docking or other such UI organization will be present as screen clutter could become an issue. I realize that the most likely response will be "It is best not to have to many open at once" but it is still a consideration that could be an issue. Away round this (Could be added in future) is if the preview windows allowed other windows to be dragged inside other windows then selection of the desired preview could be made form either a menu or list-box.

I will have a better refined idea of what (If any thing) should be done when I have used the system that will be in-place and offer my idea/s based on practical experience.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel     
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 13, 2007, 11:38:31 AM
Thanks for the email update.  This is a no-brainer.  I love it that you guys in Planetside are this dedicated.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: glen5700 on December 13, 2007, 12:26:10 PM
This is great news to hear, no problem with the delay as far as I'm concerned. Like other folks here I would rather see a delayed and give you and your team the time to get it done right. I'm looking forward to the beta and the new features sound cool.

Glen
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Marcos Silveira on December 13, 2007, 01:26:24 PM
Wil water transparency be included in the pack???
 ???
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 13, 2007, 01:32:24 PM
Did you get the email?  If not, have you purchased the package?  If you have purchased it, you would have been sent the email...maybe it's in your junk mail?


Wil water transparency be included in the pack???
 ???
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on December 13, 2007, 02:19:36 PM
Wil water transparency be included in the pack???
 ???

nothing's written about it ! Oo
so i hope it will
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 13, 2007, 03:14:41 PM
Wil water transparency be included in the pack???
 ???

nothing's written about it ! Oo
so i hope it will

Time to get out the quotes! lol

Quote from: Matt
Ray-traced transparency and reflections with improved stability and rendering speed[\quote]
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on December 13, 2007, 04:08:58 PM
aaaah Ray-traced transparency... it means water transparency... ok ! lol !
damn i didn't even know that !!! damn newbie i am ^^
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Rich2 on December 13, 2007, 04:20:08 PM
I wouldn't know a ray-traced whatever from global what-not.  I'm just happy to see Planetside has been putting an all-out effort to improve TG2, and would only release it when they felt it was ready.  Cheers to all the staff here!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 13, 2007, 04:33:30 PM
I don't think I'm misunderstanding when I say that I'm not sure the January or February updates include the free version.  I don't have the email in front of me, but I know the free version is nearing its final update.  Right?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 13, 2007, 04:45:32 PM
I may not be planetside..However I think this is whats happening:

(Unless there is 1 more update) There will be a small update for the Free version of TG 2, but this will not include the features of the beta, i believe the beta is for Purchaced TG 2 Owners (however I may be wrong) Afterwards on the release date a full Free version (with the normal restrictions) will be released along with a final version of Deep.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 13, 2007, 05:29:30 PM
I may not be planetside..However I think this is whats happening:

(Unless there is 1 more update) There will be a small update for the Free version of TG 2, but this will not include the features of the beta, i believe the beta is for Purchaced TG 2 Owners (however I may be wrong) Afterwards on the release date a full Free version (with the normal restrictions) will be released along with a final version of Deep.
That's very close, but we don't actually plan a free version update at all before the final release. The Beta will be the only public release and as noted in the announcement it will be for registered users only. Once TG2 has been finalized and released we will release an updated free version (based on the same code as the TG2 final).

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 13, 2007, 05:43:57 PM
thanks for that Oshyan (Makes me happy I did buy it :P)


I for one cant wait for transparency!

Also, will there be more features in the final release then we will see in the beta?

thanks
Zionner
P.S I just noticed a part of what i said dosent make sense! lol
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 13, 2007, 06:20:06 PM
Generally a "beta" release is "feature complete" but still needs work in stability and general polish. That is essentially how we will be treating our beta release as well - significant new features will not be added after that release. There may be further UI polish and other small things, but most of our efforts will be concentrated on ensuring stability and compatibility.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Dark Fire on December 13, 2007, 06:21:12 PM
A specific release date is excellent news and the small delay is completely insignificant when you consider these three facts:
1. We've all been waiting for TG2 for ages now.
2. T2TP was simply amazing.
3. There were a lot of small but really annoying bugs in T2TP which really needed fixing (like the GI inconsistencies).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on December 13, 2007, 06:57:05 PM
One thing that I think would be really useful is the ability to see previous renders in the render window. So the render window would have like a forward and back button to move between all the renders you have made. This would be very helpful when tweaking different settings and seeing the results and the difference they make to the scene without having to save dozens of images. It's also easier to see the change when you can flick forward and backward between two renders.

I'm sure I remember a post a while ago by someone at planetside (I think) saying that this facility would be implemented at some point in the future. Will this be in the final release or is this something that will follow later in the year?



Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: schmeerlap on December 13, 2007, 07:44:54 PM
Good work Planetside. Will the documentation be complete, and be included for download with the application? (you know, all the WIPs and in progress's).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 13, 2007, 08:33:47 PM
Generally a "beta" release is "feature complete" but still needs work in stability and general polish. That is essentially how we will be treating our beta release as well - significant new features will not be added after that release. There may be further UI polish and other small things, but most of our efforts will be concentrated on ensuring stability and compatibility.

- Oshyan

Thanks Oshyan, One more question.

In the beta, how much has render times improved? Cause as everyone knows, TG 2's render times are really....well...time consuming! lol

So any guess on how much improvement we will see?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on December 13, 2007, 10:29:33 PM
Generally a "beta" release is "feature complete" but still needs work in stability and general polish. That is essentially how we will be treating our beta release as well - significant new features will not be added after that release. There may be further UI polish and other small things, but most of our efforts will be concentrated on ensuring stability and compatibility.

- Oshyan

So am I to take it that after the final release that future feature requests will be turned down for the foreseeable future then?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 13, 2007, 10:31:39 PM
So no button #9 then huh  :'(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 13, 2007, 10:44:48 PM
So am I to take it that after the final release that future feature requests will be turned down for the foreseeable future then?

No, that's not correct. Oshyan is saying that there will be no significant new features between the Beta and the final 2.0 release, in answer to Zionner's question. The Beta is just a beta version of the final release. Development will continue long after 2.0 has been released.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 13, 2007, 10:47:25 PM
So there is hope that #9 shall be resurrected!


actual question now that I think of it: I'm finding that if I change a setting in a shader thats applied to an object that the object has to be reloaded, will this be fixed?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Lucio on December 13, 2007, 10:55:46 PM
Generally a "beta" release is "feature complete" but still needs work in stability and general polish. That is essentially how we will be treating our beta release as well - significant new features will not be added after that release. There may be further UI polish and other small things, but most of our efforts will be concentrated on ensuring stability and compatibility.

- Oshyan

Thanks Oshyan, One more question.

In the beta, how much has render times improved? Cause as everyone knows, TG 2's render times are really....well...time consuming! lol

So any guess on how much improvement we will see?

Yes, it would be great to know some more detail over the multicore support and other new optimizations.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 13, 2007, 10:57:24 PM
schmeerlap, the Node Reference will be completed, and some of the other documentation will be improved. We still need to decide on other details such as the download format for the documentation and exactly what will be in it, but we recognise the need for downloadable documentation.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 13, 2007, 11:01:49 PM
zionner, Lucio,

I don't want to release any benchmarks at this stage, but early testing shows that the multi-threading gives speedups on 2 cores and on 4 cores that are very reasonable for some scenes. It remains to be seen how well this applies to a wide range of scenes, especially more complex ones, so it would be foolish to give any figures just yet. Global illumination and other parts of the renderer have also been optimised and now render more quickly, especially at higher detail or resolution. Work is still being completed on the ray tracer (which is a big factor in render times with reflections or detailed GI), so I can't give any more information about that just yet.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 13, 2007, 11:28:55 PM
actual question now that I think of it: I'm finding that if I change a setting in a shader thats applied to an object that the object has to be reloaded, will this be fixed?

I can't make any promises about that, as other problems may take priority, but it should be improved in some future update.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on December 14, 2007, 12:01:10 AM
Will single processor machines see increases in performance and decreased render time, as well as multi-core/ processor ones?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel     
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 14, 2007, 12:37:05 AM
Yes. I should have been more clear in my previous post that the optimisations to Global Illumination and some other parts of the renderer apply to single core, single proc machines as well as multi-core/multi-proc.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Costaud on December 14, 2007, 12:37:23 AM
Will single processor machines see increases in performance and decreased render time, as well as multi-core/ processor ones?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel     

Yeah because poor guys have single processor machine  :(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: NWsenior07 on December 14, 2007, 05:02:26 AM
Well done Planetside. Well done indeed. The amount of effort and dedication put forth by you guys is awesome and I believe that the sense of community that seems to be so prevelant amoung TG users is greatly fostered by the dedication that all of you have shown. I look forward to many more hours spent playing with the software.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on December 14, 2007, 05:28:19 AM
damn Costaud ! i am poor too ! :(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Inscrutable on December 14, 2007, 07:50:59 AM
Just one quick question - how stable are you expecting the beta version to be? I appreciate that it's not easy to answer as the whole point of a beta is to test the stability, but will significant internal/closed-beta testing have been undertaken before the beta is released?

I also just want to say how excited I am about the release!  Planetside have done a really excellent job with this software and so I want to say thanks to all involved in its development so far.

P.S. I wasn't quite clear about the water transparency so thanks to previous posters in this thread for asking the pertinent question.  Transparency is actually the thing I've been looking forward to most, though I'm now concerned that even with optimisation, my single core machine will run at a snail's pace with transparency effects turned on  :-\
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Sethren on December 14, 2007, 08:10:47 AM
damn Costaud ! i am poor too ! :(

Ditto!     ::)

2.8 Ghz P4
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on December 14, 2007, 10:40:19 AM

Ditto!     ::)

2.8 Ghz P4

... with 512M of RAM.   :-\

We should have a contest to see who is running TG2 on the lamest box. I think I've seen mention of P3's a few times. Then there's that Commodore 64...   :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 14, 2007, 12:21:46 PM
Thanks for the Info matt!

*Begins countdown to the long awaited transparent shader!*

Oh! a question about that shader: Will there be a seprate shader for transparency, which you would be able to use on any surface?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 14, 2007, 01:06:43 PM
...and me.    ;D  P4 3GHz

damn Costaud ! i am poor too ! :(

Ditto!     ::)

2.8 Ghz P4
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 14, 2007, 04:03:17 PM
dual Vivo- 2.8 GHZ
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Marcos Silveira on December 14, 2007, 04:11:16 PM
Other day, I, trying to buy more memory to my lazy 700mb of RAM machine, was scared by so many questions about mother board trademark, year of production, and so, that I gave up and started thinking about buying a new PC...
 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: otakar on December 14, 2007, 04:12:13 PM
I would like to thank Planetside for the good communication policy (much better since the release of TGTP). I am also thankful for the extension of the preview pricing. Frankly, so far I have not felt the need to purchase the Deep Edition, purely from the functionality perspective. Many of my renders take a long time already with the max. settings, the only thing I could have used in a couple of scenes may be more populations. But I am still planning on acquiring TG, both for future needs and to support planetside, so that the product can continue being advanced and improved.

Also, I'd like to add a voice to those lacking the latest computer hardware. Purchasing my components in May 2005, putting together a then upper-mid-range system - not inexpensive- in terms of performance (Athlon 64 3200+, 1GB RAM in dual channel, SATA MOBO), I am done for a while with upgrades of core components, unless something breaks. I'd like Terragen to remain usable on such a system for at least the next year or so for hobbyists like me. If I were to do commercial projects I probably would be quick to spend the cash and buy a multiprocessor MOBO, one of the newer CPUs and load up on RAM, but as it is, the system has plenty of power for all my other needs. And as has been mentioned, there are people with much less powerful hardware trying to run Terragen. I am sure everybody will be happy as long as you give people an explanation which settings generally affect render time the most and how the use of the different shaders plays into that. I realize there's no quick answer here, this could grow into a nice book-size guide alone ;) Just my opinion.

Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 14, 2007, 04:31:33 PM
@Otakar - Are you aware that the price to buy TG2 will go up after the final comes out?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Sethren on December 14, 2007, 06:12:01 PM

Ditto!     ::)

2.8 Ghz P4

... with 512M of RAM.   :-\

We should have a contest to see who is running TG2 on the lamest box. I think I've seen mention of P3's a few times. Then there's that Commodore 64...   :)


I have a Gig of DDR but real soon hear i need to throw another stick in.

By the time a render would be finished on a Commodore 64 we would have colonized Tau Ceti.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 14, 2007, 06:45:43 PM
By the time a render would be finished on a Commodore 64 we would have colonized Tau Ceti.

Well, according to Wikipedia, "At just under 12 light years' distance from the Solar System, it is a relatively close star."  So...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 14, 2007, 06:57:43 PM
So, logically if we want to reach Tau Ceti we must render with a Commodore 64.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Sethren on December 14, 2007, 07:36:20 PM
So, logically if we want to reach Tau Ceti we must render with a Commodore 64.


Precisely!

BTW:
I wonder if a Sub-Surface Scattering Shader will be in the Beta even though it was not mentioned in the announcement.    ???
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 14, 2007, 08:02:43 PM
We will of course be conducting internal testing prior to releasing the beta. We would like the beta to be reasonably stable but the changes to the renderer are significant and multithreading in particular can be problematic. We only have a limited pool of multi-core alpha test systems available and there is quite a wide range of possible multi-core configurations when you take into account hyperthreaded P4's, the various generations of true multi-core CPU's, different operating systems, etc. The important thing is that the beta process will give us a much broader range of test subjects and allow us to ensure that the final release will be as stable as possible.

Subsurface scattering probably won't make it into the February final release but it should be possible in a future update.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 14, 2007, 08:07:47 PM
We will of course be conducting internal testing...

Little did we know Planetside was in league with NASA to get us to Tau Ceti... Ladys, Gentalmen we launch in February!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Sethren on December 14, 2007, 08:45:14 PM

Subsurface scattering probably won't make it into the February final release but it should be possible in a future update.

- Oshyan

Sound's Good. Febuary is right around the corner anyways.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: otakar on December 14, 2007, 10:46:22 PM
@Otakar - Are you aware that the price to buy TG2 will go up after the final comes out?

Yes, and I stated that I am thankful for the extension granted.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on December 14, 2007, 11:08:46 PM
I have a question about the renderer, currently if you use heavy, complex displacement (Say for the kinds of terrain found in Utah) during rendering you get tearing along some edges or small parts are not rendered (Denoted by black areas on the render) has this problem been fixed for both the beta and the first release?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on December 15, 2007, 12:49:41 AM
I just want to know if the warning dialog will be able to tell you what image can't be loaded when it pops up?
Right now it is more of a taunt than a help.
It takes forever to track the offending file down if you have a project with many models or image maps.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Kevin F on December 15, 2007, 08:32:25 AM
We only have a limited pool of multi-core alpha test systems available and .....
- Oshyan

I have a dual processor system ready and waiting! ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Costaud on December 15, 2007, 01:29:29 PM
We only have a limited pool of multi-core alpha test systems available and .....
- Oshyan

I have a dual processor system ready and waiting! ;D

I have dual processor too but on 2 different machines, one is on my old 10 years old computer and the second is on my 4 years old machine.  :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on December 15, 2007, 01:57:44 PM
This is great news

I was just wondering if there will be DOF in the final release in February?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 15, 2007, 02:00:13 PM
hopefully but if not they I think a depth buffer would be easy enough to add but I'm no programmer so I could be talking out of my ass right now.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on December 15, 2007, 02:06:04 PM
There is already a depht shader we can use, but I think it's to much work. You have to assign the depht shader to everything in your scene.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Bitboy on December 15, 2007, 03:23:07 PM
Since we're discussing multicore/threading, I have another somewhat related question:

I'm using Vista Ultimate 64-Bit on my Quad Core 2.9 GHz (with 8 GB RAM) and was wondering if there will be a 64-bit version of TG2 eventually? TG2 should have no problems running on Vista 64-bit right? Just installed it and haven't tested TG2 on it yet. :P

On another note I only saw this announcement on the mailing list and haven't received any official email from Planetside. Same problem with the last beta release announcement. Some problem with my registration email info?

Thanks for a great program :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 15, 2007, 05:44:46 PM
Sonshine, we'll definitely try to improve the warnings dialog to be more useful.

We only have a limited pool of multi-core alpha test systems available and .....
- Oshyan

I have a dual processor system ready and waiting! ;D
That's exactly what the beta is for. ;)

Bitboy, we do intend to make a 64 bit version available at some point but it won't be possible to have it completed by Febuary. We will be working on a number of free updates to Terragen 2 throughout 2008 and 64 bit support should be included at some point in that time.

If you have not received update emails, please contact registrations@planetside and let them know about the problem and what your current address is. Also be sure to add @planetside.co.uk to any spam filter whitelists you may have.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on December 15, 2007, 06:59:25 PM
ah...is the 16 texture limit been fixed for the beta or final version???
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 15, 2007, 07:26:31 PM
ah...is the 16 texture limit been fixed for the beta or final version???
Unfortunately no, but again that will be improved as we move forward in 2008.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Costaud on December 15, 2007, 10:15:20 PM
We will of course be conducting internal testing prior to releasing the beta. We would like the beta to be reasonably stable but the changes to the renderer are significant and multithreading in particular can be problematic. We only have a limited pool of multi-core alpha test systems available and there is quite a wide range of possible multi-core configurations when you take into account hyperthreaded P4's, the various generations of true multi-core CPU's, different operating systems, etc. The important thing is that the beta process will give us a much broader range of test subjects and allow us to ensure that the final release will be as stable as possible.

Subsurface scattering probably won't make it into the February final release but it should be possible in a future update.

- Oshyan

No subsurface scattering, too bad it's one of the features in which I have most interest.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on December 15, 2007, 11:36:56 PM
What about the long vaunted bolder generator, is this still been worked on; or is now planed that people just use the "Fake Stone's Shader"? It has been a while since any information has been given regarding this, and I was interested to know weather it was still under development or fell by the wayside?

Regrades to you.

Cyber-Angel  :)
   
   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 16, 2007, 03:32:32 AM
What about the long vaunted bolder generator, is this still been worked on; or is now planed that people just use the "Fake Stone's Shader"? It has been a while since any information has been given regarding this, and I was interested to know weather it was still under development or fell by the wayside?

The idea is that the Rock object will be developed until something more powerful, but it's not very useful right now.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 16, 2007, 03:33:46 AM
DOF will not be in the February release.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on December 16, 2007, 04:19:57 AM
ok so what exactly will be there in final release??...I read these posts and all I see is the things that wont be able to make it in Feb release...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 16, 2007, 07:13:30 AM
A summary of the major changes was given in the announcement: http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2940   We'll list the minor changes when we release the beta. Additional major features will be included as well but we're not in a position to announce features before they have been completed.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on December 16, 2007, 12:43:55 PM
Thank you Matt....is water transparency included for Feb???
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on December 16, 2007, 01:25:03 PM
Thank you Matt....is water transparency included for Feb???

Just take a look at the link Matt just gave you. Water transparency will be avilable 4th of January if you are a licensed users.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: EmDee1 on December 16, 2007, 06:34:03 PM
Great to hear about the Terragen 2 announcement and even greater it will be available in about three weeks time for licensed users!
Personally I hope the upcoming version will be more stable again than today's version (which was allready more stable than the version before).
Last months I've worked a lot with T2Deep, I learn to work with the program and appreciate it more and more every day, but also every day I have to deal with a PC that has to be restarted five or more times a day because some Terragen-buttons will not response anymore. Fortunately I save my files frequently...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on December 16, 2007, 07:36:41 PM
also every day I have to deal with a PC that has to be restarted five or more times a day because some Terragen-buttons will not response anymore.

I also have to restart the computer or sometimes just TG2 because of the flickering, buttons not responding problem. I sometimes have to do this every few hours. I really hope they have managed to fix this. Still i'm having lots of fun and can't wait for the beta in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on December 17, 2007, 01:03:31 AM
also every day I have to deal with a PC that has to be restarted five or more times a day because some Terragen-buttons will not response anymore.

I also have to restart the computer or sometimes just TG2 because of the flickering, buttons not responding problem. I sometimes have to do this every few hours. I really hope they have managed to fix this. Still i'm having lots of fun and can't wait for the beta in a few weeks.

Currently, I save my files after pretty much every "change" I make.  The latest release is 100X more stable than the original.  However, the current release will always eventually crash, but a simple restart of the app resolves it.  Its still way usuable even with this flaw, and blows away all other apps of this type by a wide margin! 

Personally, I am really looking forward to water transparency, multicore support, and the fixes for GI.  I'd love to see SSS, but it can wait for now, as the first 3 items mean the most for me at this point.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: jo on December 17, 2007, 06:38:45 AM
Hi,

also every day I have to deal with a PC that has to be restarted five or more times a day because some Terragen-buttons will not response anymore.

I also have to restart the computer or sometimes just TG2 because of the flickering, buttons not responding problem. I sometimes have to do this every few hours. I really hope they have managed to fix this. Still i'm having lots of fun and can't wait for the beta in a few weeks.

This problem is now fixed.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: efflux on December 17, 2007, 11:57:49 AM
Great news. The final release will probably be out by the time I get to use TG2 again. The current Mac version of TG2 has far less problems than Modo 301 which has numerous bugs and that's with a final release of software costing $895.00.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on December 17, 2007, 06:55:44 PM
Great news. The final release will probably be out by the time I get to use TG2 again. The current Mac version of TG2 has far less problems than Modo 301 which has numerous bugs and that's with a final release of software costing $895.00.

$895?  What a ripoff!   Geez.  I don't think any software out there is currently worth that, atleast for me. 

I'm glad TG2 isn't near that much. 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on December 17, 2007, 11:08:34 PM
Hi its great to finally hear something from you.

My question is about my most asked topic! multicores. I ve read whole this thread and i have some sort of feeling that there will NOT be full multicore support in first release in TG2.

for example... will be the live preview working with 4 cores? Or just one?. How it will be with GI and rendering, will it use all 4?

Second question is simple... if i buy deep edition for 200, will it be possible to add up animation upgrade LATER just for 100?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 18, 2007, 01:40:56 AM
Multi-core support is still planned for inclusion in the February release, as the announcement mentioned. This means multiple cores will be used during rendering at the least, if not in previews. We are working to allow it for preview use as well, of course. The Beta will include initial multithreading support which will be refined and optimized leading up to the February release.

Pre-release pricing is only good until the final release. The animation upgrade will be more expensive after the February 15th release, regardless of when you purchased the Deep Edition.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 18, 2007, 02:10:51 PM
Oshyan, would you clarify this?  I purchased the Deep + Animation Edition with the belief that there would be no reason to upgrade to take advantage of animation.  If not, why did I pay extra for the Deep + Animation Edition?


The animation upgrade will be more expensive after the February 15th release, regardless of when you purchased the Deep Edition.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on December 18, 2007, 03:00:15 PM
Oshyan, would you clarify this?  I purchased the Deep Edition with the belief that there would be no reason to upgrade to take advantage of animation.  If not, why did I pay extra for the Deep Edition?


The animation upgrade will be more expensive after the February 15th release, regardless of when you purchased the Deep Edition.

- Oshyan

The animation upgrade has always been more than the deep. And as stated, after Feb 15th the price breaks are off.
If you want a special price on the animation upgrade before the 15th. Thats how I understand it.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 18, 2007, 03:14:09 PM
Ok, I get nervous whenever i read about these so im just going to ask:

Once I have Purchaced Deep + Animation (which I already have) I will NOT need to pay again will I?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 18, 2007, 03:40:31 PM
Okay.  This is the same question I'm asking.  I have Deep + Animation (not just Deep).  And my question is the same as zionner's.

I apologize for the confusion and have edited the above message.


Ok, I get nervous whenever i read about these so im just going to ask:

Once I have Purchaced Deep + Animation (which I already have) I will NOT need to pay again will I?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on December 18, 2007, 03:54:19 PM
The answer is no, you don't.

When you pre-purchase Terragen 2, you unlock extra capabilities and remove limitations that are in the Technology Preview, Free Non-Commercial edition. You also secure yourself a copy of Terragen 2 "Deep" edition at today's price and are entitled to free updates. The Pre-Purchase includes a commercial license for one user and up to 5 additional render node licenses, depending on the edition.

That is what you will find on the pre-purchase page here: http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tg2/prepurchase_tg2.shtml
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on December 18, 2007, 04:03:25 PM

Once I have Purchaced Deep + Animation (which I already have) I will NOT need to pay again will I?

This is how I understand it.

If you pre-purchased Deep you will get the a full copy of Deep when it's released.

If you pre-purchased Deep+Animation you will get a full copy of Deep when its' released. You will also get a full copy of the Animation module when that is released. This is why you paid more for for Deep+Anim because you are also purchasing the animation module.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on December 18, 2007, 07:14:22 PM
for sure you wont have to pay again...he just wanted to say that after final release prices will go up. you basically bought terragen in discount
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 18, 2007, 07:20:07 PM
yea, the is a pre-purchase that will buy you the product up to Terragen 3
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on December 18, 2007, 10:56:41 PM
Terragen 3, that seems along way off I hope that for that major release milestone that another Technology Preview is released so that the kinks can be worked out, but like I said its a ways off in the distant future lots of interesting and cool features to be added between the first release of TG2 on 14th February and then, but it all depends on how well TG2 dose in the market place as a commercial product weather or not Planetside will have the resources to code what is likely to be a major under taking. How much of TG2's code base will survive into TG3, who at this stage can say?

Where will we be when TG3 comes down the pipe, as it where, in 10-15 years according to IBM they should have the manufacturing technology's to be able to make what they call "Super Computing on a Chip" CPU's a physical reality, that could at least in theory find there way into the home computer market or at the vary least high end workstations one suspects that IBM would let other semiconductor manufacturers use this technology in their chip designs in the way that their open architecture paved the way for the PC market we have today. In that same time scale then, we should be in the beginnings of the Optronics (Optical Electronics) age where semiconductors are based on using laser light to move data rather than silicon and copper wire as now, an optical chip using laser light is able to move data at much higher rates than current silicon based technology.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel             
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 18, 2007, 11:01:35 PM
What can we do but guess all I know is that there will still be war and politics.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 19, 2007, 02:00:48 AM
Just to make sure it's clear, if you have pre-purchased any version of TG2 you are entitled to a free update to the final release *of that version* as well as subsequent releases up to but not including any "Terragen 3" release. So if you have purchased Deep, you will get a free update to the final release of Deep. With Deep + Animation, you will continue to have access to animation features even after the final release of Deep and despite the fact that the Animation Module will not yet be final. Once the final animation module is released you will also receive a free update to that version.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Arandil on December 19, 2007, 05:17:04 AM
Like .. I dunno ... woot!  ;D :-[
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 19, 2007, 12:18:19 PM
COOL. 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 19, 2007, 03:11:56 PM
Good to know Oshyan! Thanks for clearing that up.

Also, If a Terragen 3 was to ever come..It would be like TG 2 is compared to TG 0.9, I am guessing it would be a completely new program/project.

Though to be honest once they optimise the renderer for TG 2, I cant see too much improvement space in terms of Detail.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on December 19, 2007, 05:24:44 PM
We're not going to talk about Terragen 3 yet :-)

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 19, 2007, 06:55:39 PM
Will you guy make the sun look better when rendering at high altitudes? (instead of a blank white disk)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on December 19, 2007, 07:08:05 PM
I think it's low altitudes when the sun is near the horizon where the work is needed. For instance when trying to create sunsets the sun just looks like a white circle instead of a glowing star.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Sethren on December 19, 2007, 07:51:48 PM
I believe there was talk of adding an Aura (Glow) effect to the sun disc not to long ago. Something as simple as that would be effective enough.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 19, 2007, 08:08:58 PM
Now, that would be great! lol

Means that I would be able to stop avoiding the sun in my renders! lol
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on December 19, 2007, 08:24:18 PM
Now, that would be great! lol

Means that I would be able to stop avoiding the sun in my renders! lol

Avoiding the sun is not all that bad, because as you know the sun causes skin cancer. ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on December 19, 2007, 08:27:57 PM
Heheh,
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Dark Fire on December 19, 2007, 11:04:06 PM
Bitboy, we do intend to make a 64 bit version available at some point but it won't be possible to have it completed by Febuary. We will be working on a number of free updates to Terragen 2 throughout 2008 and 64 bit support should be included at some point in that time.
Will there be a free version with 64 bit support?

This thread seems to be turning into an interrogation of the Planetside team... :-[
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 19, 2007, 11:18:39 PM
A 64 bit version of TG2 will not initially be available. Specific limitations of the free version in particular will be announced closer to its release.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: odd on December 20, 2007, 01:28:06 AM
We only have a limited pool of multi-core alpha test systems available and there is quite a wide range of possible multi-core configurations...

Hi Oshyan - if you would like an alpha tester with a quad core machine, please do let me know!!
(2 x Opteron 275 dual core 2.21Ghz & 4Gb RAM on XP - bought a full deep TG2 - no problem with signing an NDA)

cheers

//O.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 20, 2007, 03:27:09 AM
Thanks, I've got a quaddie myself. ;D Any additional testers we take on now would not be strictly for hardware compatibility - the candidate would have to have a particular aptitude for testing and/or a strong desire to put in a decent amount of time testing specific areas. All registered users will have access to the beta soon enough anyway. :)

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on December 20, 2007, 04:53:57 AM
Out of interest what areas of interest would Planetside be looking at for testing as I have the time to do this. I would need to know what kind of information testers are required to submit and any particular format (I Don't mean file format) that this information is required in etc, PM me if you don't wish this kind of internal process information placed on the public forum.

If theres a weakness in software I will find it as I tend to use things in unconventional ways, I could have done games testing as a job but didn't always loved finding weakness in game AI while playing and the exploiting them.

I have read a number of times that the testing team at Planetside is small any thing I can do to help in that process I will.

I look forward to the beta in January, but in the mean time if you need help I offer what help I may?

Look forward to working with your good selves.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel           
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: odd on December 20, 2007, 02:47:28 PM
Thanks, I've got a quaddie myself. ;D Any additional testers we take on now would not be strictly for hardware compatibility - the candidate would have to have a particular aptitude for testing and/or a strong desire to put in a decent amount of time testing specific areas. All registered users will have access to the beta soon enough anyway. :)

- Oshyan

Ah! cool :) - well I'm still interested! Not just to get access, but to get to sort out possible quirks that would affect the stuff I'd like to do with TG2 - in essence HD sized animation and print sized images 2000x3000 minimum and much larger. I work as a 3d graphics freelancer so I can do this in parallell with my work. I've done alpha and beta testing with Rhino 3d and I still do it with Brazil R/S. Please let me know if I can be of any use - and what areas you need to have looked at, feedback expected etc cheers //O.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on December 20, 2007, 03:35:09 PM
is the bug where you could see the bounding box through terrain fixed???

its much easier to place objects that way....you know...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: DeathTwister on December 20, 2007, 05:11:15 PM
Whew lots of posts to read  ;D,

  Hay all, been busy and sick and busy and sick and so on, so have not been watching posts here much lately.  Oooops.  Oh wow Great I bought the full deep version so I get a Late Xmas gift like you all as well come Jan 1rst, WooPee......

  Yep I have a duel P4 3ghz chip with 2 gigs ram, and it is still slow.  But not as slow as Bryce and they been the standard in slow render times for years, so I plan to get a quad and 16 gigs of ram with a P4 3.5 or so on the next few months, and I bet it will still be slow ROTFL, but I will love it anyway. Dang I love tgd2 the full deep version.

  My main concern is the 16 texture limit and while I am excited very much about all that is getting done, I am also sad that more has not been done for the texture limit.  I have been messing with it looking for work arounds to get more then 16, but I more then not have to put many of my models in a folder and wait, and then take many back into Max/XSI and rework the mapping trying to get it down to 16 or so with varying degrees of success. This program has so much more to offer and is so far beyond Vue in so many ways except for texturing and .mat materials.  So one thing I would like to see is a way for us to save the textures we do make in a data base in tgd2 and am wondering if anyone is working on that? as i have never seen any posts on that feature, so figure it isn't in the works at all, but should be down the road at least. I have to admit it is very nice just to be able to drop a model in no matter how many textures there are and turn key and render after placement so hoping someday you guys give that to us as well.

  My Company would love to be on the Beta testing team if I was to get asked, and I would love to work on that very area and would give it my all if I had the chance to Dev so if you need a good Artist who can Test well, give me a private email Oshyan, you got it /smiles.....

Here is a shot of some images I have done bringing in Models and grass, and other goodies.

(http://www.theatomizer.com/Downloads/Dorpodon.jpg)

and

(http://www.theatomizer.com/Downloads/DinoCondraReptilicus.jpg)

Just to show a few I have managed to get into tgd2 and mapped right.  It does seem to take sub-mapping  OK, the trouble is it does see all the extra parts in the model but it will not allow mapping to them gets me frustrated sometimes hugely haha.  Dang it shouldn't be that hard to get updated, it looks like it is almost done, just not connected somehow when I study it.

 Also I have heard that we will be able to see the mesh on a Model here soon and am wondering if that is going to be in the release we get on Jan 1-2? As that would help so very much in placing objects for us as I am sure we can all agree on, weather it is a tree, bush, grass, or a Snake, we do need to see the mesh, and would be real sweet to see, select and map that part of the model as well like in other modeling and staging software.  I can only hope hahaha.

  Anyway that my 5 cents worth of thought for what it is worth and like the rest I am sooooo very excited about it getting released soon and can't frigging wait hahahaha.  /drools all over Planet Side.  Let me know when and if I can lend a hand in the mapping and texturing dept if you have a need, I have the time for that one, Oh yes I do /winks.

  Oh and please come join my Monthly TGD2 Monthly Challenges on http://Renderosity.com (http://Renderosity.com) and join up and come add a entry in to the Contests. The Terragen Forums are at:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showforum.php?forum_id=12398 (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showforum.php?forum_id=12398)
 We have our first Themed Challenge going now and we sure could use all your entries to make it more fun, all my friends here, so come on over and visit and come play.

OK have fun my Friends and talk soon /smiles....

DeathTwisters Allay

AKA Maylock




Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on December 23, 2007, 09:52:01 PM
Will there be any new options for the grass in the final release in february?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on December 24, 2007, 12:40:06 AM
there wont be any 64bit version initially ? :( guyz come on... you say it will be pro software... but without multi core and 64bit support you can hardly call it pro.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on December 24, 2007, 02:18:21 AM
there wont be any 64bit version initially ? :( guyz come on... you say it will be pro software... but without multi core and 64bit support you can hardly call it pro.

The first release will be multi core.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on December 24, 2007, 05:08:27 AM
Photoshop's not 64-bit yet, either, and way beyond Beta.

Q: "How do you eat a whole elephant?"
A: "One bite at a a time."
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 24, 2007, 12:26:31 PM
A2: Chug it Chug it!   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on December 24, 2007, 05:15:40 PM
there wont be any 64bit version initially ? :( guyz come on... you say it will be pro software... but without multi core and 64bit support you can hardly call it pro.

The first release will be multi core.

It wont be full multicore support, if i understood Oshyan well.

Photoshop's not 64-bit yet, either, and way beyond Beta.

Q: "How do you eat a whole elephant?"
A: "One bite at a a time."

You confused two different things. Im talking about support for 64bit. 32bit Photoshop can run on windows vista 64 bit. So im asking... will terragen run on windows vista 64bit?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on December 24, 2007, 05:25:02 PM
I would imagine so, I've never had problems running 32 bit programs on 64 bit systems before.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on December 24, 2007, 05:37:36 PM
there wont be any 64bit version initially ? :( guyz come on... you say it will be pro software... but without multi core and 64bit support you can hardly call it pro.

The first release will be multi core.

It wont be full multicore support, if i understood Oshyan well.

Photoshop's not 64-bit yet, either, and way beyond Beta.

Q: "How do you eat a whole elephant?"
A: "One bite at a a time."

You confused two different things. Im talking about support for 64bit. 32bit Photoshop can run on windows vista 64 bit. So im asking... will terragen run on windows vista 64bit?

It runs fine here on XP64, so I presume it would also on Vista64.

Martin
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on December 24, 2007, 10:30:01 PM
:) cool i guess i just got somehow mislead reading the tons of posts.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Fenring on December 25, 2007, 02:22:43 AM
Stop spreading FUD, i have run terragen 2 technology preview on both vista 64 and xp 64 without problems. My current render comp is xp64 and it does nothing but putting out terragen 2 renders.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on December 25, 2007, 03:24:14 AM
I state i have been spreading FUD because i ve misread information. Terragen is able to run on 64bit systems
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 25, 2007, 03:03:48 PM
Lucky...renderer.   ;D

My current render comp is xp64 and it does nothing but putting out terragen 2 renders.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: adit on December 25, 2007, 03:27:52 PM
Just want to clear something up..
A while ago, when I bought the tech preview I asked whether the the animation module could be purchased separately if I wanted to buy it later, and the answer was yes at the time.

Does that still stand?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on December 25, 2007, 06:23:01 PM
I believe you need to buy TG2 Animation version before you will get the animation module.  Someone correct me, please, if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on December 25, 2007, 07:32:05 PM
I think you should see it as upgrading from the deep version to deep + animation.
I have the deep version, so if I want to have the animation module I'll have to pay 100 bucks to upgrade.
That's the way it works I think.

Martin
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: red_planet on December 26, 2007, 09:29:52 AM
You can upgrade the deep to deep + animation....i did it !!

http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tg2/regcc_tg2.php (http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tg2/regcc_tg2.php)

(There is an option to upgrade deep to deep+animation)

Rgds
Chris
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 26, 2007, 08:30:42 PM
TG2 will be fully multithreaded for the final release. That means the renderer, including Global Illumination, will support the use of multiple CPU's and or CPU cores in a single system, which will of course greatly increase render speed.

TG2 definitely runs on 64 bit versions of Windows. I have run it myself on both XP x64 and Vista x64. This is not particularly surprising though since the vast majority of 32 bit applications run without problems on both OS's as they include a 32 bit realtime emulation system for 32 bit. Note that a properly 64 bit optimized version of TG2 will be made available at a later time and this will help in particular with very memory-intensive scenes for those who have lots of memory (4+GB).

You can purchase the animation "module" separately as an upgrade for TG2 Deep. The animation module will not be finalized at the same time as Terragen 2, but basic animation functions are still available and are enabled by the purchase of the animation upgrade. Improved animation capability

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on December 27, 2007, 09:22:12 PM
TG2 will be fully multithreaded for the final release.

- Oshyan

Will the preview window be fully multithreaded as well or just the main renderer?

Regards.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on December 28, 2007, 08:38:18 PM
TG2 will be fully multithreaded for the final release.

- Oshyan

Will the preview window be fully multithreaded as well or just the main renderer?

Regards.

Yes, it should be.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: DeathTwister on December 28, 2007, 10:10:33 PM
So after the main release, Are they going to work on the next release after that with the major update letting us get more textures in for our models finally? I consider that critical to me at this time for what I want to do in tgd2. I sure hope they do as to me that is the weak point of this software at the moment, other then that I am so very happy with tgd2.

DT
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: adit on December 28, 2007, 10:11:41 PM
Everything sounds excellent! I can't wait for the release.

One more thing-I'm sure it's come up before-but are populations being cached on the list of improvements any time in the future? I don't want to recalculate huge populations if I try re-rendering an old scene.

Of course, this is given that it is possible to do that at all (I am completely ignorant of innards of TG).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on December 29, 2007, 11:32:24 PM
im not quite sure i think that the recounting is simple a must such as recounting fractal terain. well oshyan i let u speak because im noob -_-
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Zylot on January 03, 2008, 11:39:06 PM
Hmm.. tomorrows the big day, for us regged users.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on January 03, 2008, 11:45:32 PM
It all depends on where you are in the world and which time zone you live in, for some such my self it is already the 4th and I look forward to seeing the beta, as many are just as soon as its released.  8)

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on January 03, 2008, 11:47:14 PM
It's the 4th here too :D

cant wait!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on January 03, 2008, 11:50:53 PM
ooo lucky you :P  :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on January 04, 2008, 12:24:45 AM
but Here its 1:30 AM

so..:/ lol
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on January 04, 2008, 12:36:31 AM
I should think (IMHO) that the beta will go live at the beginning of the working day in the UK which is around 0.900 but thats just my take could be any time after that, who can say.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on January 04, 2008, 12:39:58 AM
is it being released at 12 midnight??
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Zylot on January 04, 2008, 12:53:32 AM
Is there going to be a launch party? 

edit: with lager?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on January 04, 2008, 01:04:35 AM
is it being released at 12 midnight??

Who's Midnight? England, New York, Denver, LA, Hawaii, New Zealand or Australia?
For some its already passed and others it still hours away. ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on January 04, 2008, 01:18:04 AM
I suppose it will be out some time on the 4th but who can say when I presume there will be an E-Mail sent to registered users when the beta is on the serves ready to download? How much automation there is in this process I don't know, until then just a little while longer!

All good things come to those who wait and all that.  8)

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

 


 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Zylot on January 04, 2008, 01:20:19 AM
Cyber, you're dodging of the pressing "launch party" questions leave me sceptacle.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on January 04, 2008, 02:10:42 AM
Cyber, you're dodging of the pressing "launch party" questions leave me sceptacle.

We aim to please!  ;D

Speculation is all well and good but its nothing compared to having cold (As in icy) software, as to the party well, let them eat cake and all that.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on January 04, 2008, 02:24:09 AM
Hi all,

I'm sorry to announce that the Beta version which was due to be released on the 4th of January will be delayed. Unexpected complications have meant that I have been unable to complete some important work on the improved renderer, and we feel it is important that the Beta should be a fully functioning test version of the final release. The length of the delay is uncertain, but should be no more than a few weeks. The final release may also be delayed by a few weeks accordingly. I apologise for the late announcement. Until recently we had every reason to believe that the Beta would be ready on time.

Thanks for your patience,

Matt Fairclough, Planetside Software.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on January 04, 2008, 02:35:33 AM
I can live with that I'd rather functioning software then some thing that doesn't quite live up to expectations.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Zylot on January 04, 2008, 02:39:33 AM
So much for the launch party, I'll be drinking alone :(

Good luck getting everything cleared up for us guys!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on January 04, 2008, 02:51:51 AM
I was so excited!....DAMN IT!

I gotta break something in my house...or I will go crazy!!... >:(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: otakar on January 04, 2008, 04:58:03 AM
If the final release gets delayed, will the pre-release pricing also get extended?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on January 04, 2008, 05:35:53 AM
Keep plugging, Matt et al.

 ;)

A very personal perspective, of course, which I completely understand that others may not share... but personally, I was bumming because I knew I wasn't going to have a chance to work with it for another 3 weeks anyway. Too busy on other stuff.

Like I said, a very personal perspective.

 :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on January 04, 2008, 05:36:23 AM
The pre-release pricing will continue until the final release is available.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: EoinArmstrong on January 04, 2008, 06:46:38 AM
What a p1sser :(

But at the end of the day it's for the best - hope you can sort out all the probs, team!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JollyFather on January 04, 2008, 07:18:11 AM
Hello.

I was sorry to hear about this delay.

You just make it work the way it's supposed to and I will wait.

Best regards,

JF
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Kevin F on January 04, 2008, 09:10:06 AM
This is really disappointing yet predictable news! It's also very poor PR. Planetside must realise by now that giving deadlines is a flawed policy unless you can guarantee to meet them, and you obviously don't have the resources and backing to support your predictions.
I'm also annoyed that you left it 'till the very day of release to announce the latest delay. This is so unprofessional.
No doubt some of the sycophants on this forum will not agree and say that they would rather wait for a full working version. So would I and have been for most of the last decade!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on January 04, 2008, 09:13:42 AM
Ah, dam!


I thought I was going to be using Transparency today :(


*The Dream Lives on*

lol
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: matrix2003 on January 04, 2008, 09:20:55 AM
Bollocks !  Well we have been here before !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on January 04, 2008, 10:12:51 AM
ah well, back to The Witcher...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Fenring on January 04, 2008, 10:34:30 AM
Oh god this was dissapointing  :( And also extremely unprofessional to promise a release and less than one month later on the exact day of the release say that it wont be here, and even worse not even have a new secure date ready.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on January 04, 2008, 10:54:18 AM
Question: I understand the reason why Planetside has chosen to delay the release of beta, as this stage of development can be very unpredictable, but if you are releasing a BETA build, why would It matter about this bug/issue, since it will be a beta, and the whole point of beta if to test the software and fish out bugs before release.

Thanks
Zionner
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on January 04, 2008, 11:12:32 AM
if you are releasing a BETA build, why would It matter about this bug/issue, since it will be a beta, and the whole point of beta if to test the software and fish out bugs before release.

Thanks
Zionner

If the problem is with the actual renderer itself then they really need to get that fixed before any beta release is made. There is no point in beta testing something that is broken, especially when it's the core component. Much better for Planetside to fix the problem and then release to beta users to ensure that the fix has not broken anything else and that it's stable for final release.

As for timing, I assume the problem was only discovered in the last day or so which explains why we only found now. Due to this I can also understand why they are hesitant in promising another firm release date at this time.

It was very disappointing though. I got out of bed this morning and excitidly checked my email, got even more excited when I saw i'd received an email from Planetside and then suddenly felt very disappointed when I read the word delayed.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on January 04, 2008, 11:21:51 AM
If it doesn't work then it doesn't work. Move on, we'll live, and I'm just happy they found the rendering problem before releasing it or it would have been VERY VERY BAD.  ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on January 04, 2008, 11:22:52 AM
This is really disappointing yet predictable news! It's also very poor PR. Planetside must realise by now that giving deadlines is a flawed policy unless you can guarantee to meet them, and you obviously don't have the resources and backing to support your predictions.
I'm also annoyed that you left it 'till the very day of release to announce the latest delay. This is so unprofessional.
No doubt some of the sycophants on this forum will not agree and say that they would rather wait for a full working version. So would I and have been for most of the last decade!
To be fair, all the previous releases (of TG 1.x) have been met. Even those that have not been officially announced in a separate thread, but where only mentioned somewhere in the forums.

Still, it's disappointing...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: RealUser on January 04, 2008, 11:57:50 AM
Well, we all knew that this could happen, didn't we? So, I am not so disappointed about this news. Life goes on and some time in this year it will come. There are so many other thing I could care about ... ;-)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on January 04, 2008, 12:00:29 PM
Some times things don't go as planed and to be fair to Planetside as soon as they knew there was going to be a delay then some thing was said about it, this is no where near as bad as the pre-forums days when all we had was just the Yahoo Group to rely on if I thwart other wise I would say so, and if you've been around here long enough you know what that mains!

The problem that has caused the delay must be affecting other areas of the software or has the potential to do so but further more it is good to know that Planetside care enough about both their customers and their product that they provide to have a short delay and fix the problem before shipping the product beta or no beta, some software vendors would have provided the beta as is and would have provided a patch to fix the problem (Akin to providing life saving surgery after the patient is already dead).

This is really disappointing yet predictable news! It's also very poor PR. Planetside must realise by now that giving deadlines is a flawed policy unless you can guarantee to meet them, and you obviously don't have the resources and backing to support your predictions.
I'm also annoyed that you left it 'till the very day of release to announce the latest delay. This is so unprofessional.
No doubt some of the sycophants on this forum will not agree and say that they would rather wait for a full working version. So would I and have been for most of the last decade!
     

Unprofessional or not the face remains that in software as in an other industry the unexpected can and dose occur and given that Planetside has finite resources I think they do what they can with what they've got, the process of learning continues so that the same kind of mistake dose not happen again.

I think that they had to be sure that there was going to be a delay and absolutely sure that it was going to have a significant impact that the deadline for release was going to be missed and so they said what they did when they did, yes sooner would have been better but in the end they did say some thing, thats all that matters.

What in the end is it we are talking about here...Software. 

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  8)       
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Boggy49 on January 04, 2008, 12:44:40 PM
Perfection takes time.  Keep me posted.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: trashman on January 04, 2008, 01:30:02 PM
"Shit happens". Good luck. It's a great product. :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on January 04, 2008, 01:52:10 PM
That would only make sense, but someone from Planetside would need to confirm.  Everything this company has done so far has been completely fair and thorough.


If the final release gets delayed, will the pre-release pricing also get extended?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on January 04, 2008, 01:53:31 PM
Exactly.


...and I'm just happy they found the rendering problem before releasing it or it would have been VERY VERY BAD.  ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on January 04, 2008, 01:55:05 PM
Thanks Matt for stepping up to the challenge.  Best wishes for you and the Planetside team.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: stevehmeyer on January 04, 2008, 02:53:39 PM
How many times have I been waiting for some software release and not heard a word, sometimes for nearly a year.  Thanks Planetside your prompt announcement makes me fee I can trust you, any wayl some things are worth waiting for.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on January 04, 2008, 03:20:33 PM
What a shame, I'm disappointed but I can of course understand the reasons.

I think it would be sweet if Planetside would release some images made with the new renderer, I'm sure it has been working and that what ever issue has delayed the release must have been fairly well hidden or it would have come to light earlier.

I would love to see some images with the new transparency settings enabled just for fun you know.

Oh well keep working guys, cant wait :)

Richard
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on January 04, 2008, 03:44:39 PM
I'm not surprised, I mean I've only known about TG2 since 2004.  ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: riamacgroup on January 04, 2008, 04:18:17 PM
I'll take quality over "rush to market" any day.  Besides, we've already used it in publication and it's great. Can't wait to see the finished product.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on January 04, 2008, 04:30:59 PM
I'll wait for it ! :)
Good luck to the Planetside staff !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: peejay on January 04, 2008, 05:18:22 PM
also happy to wait - keep up the good work   :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tennoki on January 04, 2008, 05:24:02 PM
Delay's no problem .. if it needs fixing it needs it regardless .. no point in releasing something that doesn't work and getting 250 reports of a major issue you already know about.  New system doesn't arrive until February anyway...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on January 04, 2008, 05:25:12 PM
Sorry you guys couldn't get it out on time.  I've having a blast with your current version - a new version was just icing on the cake!   ;D

Either way, keep up the great work Planetside!  
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on January 04, 2008, 07:03:45 PM
 I've having a blast with your current version - a new version was just icing on the cake!   ;D

Well, let's not get TOO carried away with that tone...   ;)   :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bertrand on January 04, 2008, 07:55:09 PM
Honestly, based on recent history (such as the big disappointment at the recent update), I wasn't keeping my hopes very high as far as this release was concerned - so disappointment is limited. It's more that I was faintly hoping to be pleasantly surprised.
Though I was an early buyer of the Deep edition, I regret to say I haven't done anything in TG2 in months due to the lack of multithreading. Getting less TG2 performance on my brand new Quad than I did on my old P4 just doesn't do the trick for me. So I'll go back to not using it, doing other things in software that works. And please don't bother with pre-announcements next time. You just let us know when you have something that works.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: teksurgical on January 08, 2008, 03:49:53 AM
Well, I only recently learned for sure that support for multiple processors would be in the final release of T2, and I had quite the opposite reaction as the last post.  I was so happy to hear for one, that there was an update and it was the simply the real status of development, and also that you would definitely support multithreading.  The 8 core mac pro had been waiting ever so patiently for that info, right now it feels like 7 cores are just waiting with bats at the door, smoking cigarettes and glaring in the window, and all they want to do is slam the detail settings up, raytrace the entire universe, and switch to ludicrous speed, so I'm glad that I know that will be possible and thanks for the update at least.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on January 14, 2008, 03:52:51 PM
any news on how the beta release is coming??....
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on January 14, 2008, 03:56:37 PM
Yeah, news would be nice.  I can handle hearing stuff like "we're stuck on 5 problems, all of which are impossible to diagnose", knowing you are still plugging away rather than hearing nothing.  But, that's me.  I develop apps using Microsoft and know what that means.   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on January 14, 2008, 04:21:31 PM
  But, that's me.  I develop apps using Microsoft and know what that means.   ;D

Let's see... that means you work with the best tested, best designed, most stable software products imaginable to mankind, right? Right? Doesn't it?   ???


Oh, why look! It's a giant talking rabbit! ... what's that? You say you're here to take me back to my room?


 ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on January 14, 2008, 04:28:17 PM
  But, that's me.  I develop apps using Microsoft and know what that means.   ;D

Let's see... that means you work with the best tested, best designed, most stable software products imaginable to mankind, right? Right? Doesn't it?   ???


Oh, why look! It's a giant talking rabbit! ... what's that? You say you're here to take me back to my room?


 ;D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on January 14, 2008, 04:31:03 PM
Just a BIT of the pent-up emotion of a long-time VS user.   :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on January 14, 2008, 04:32:41 PM
Aahh! :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on January 14, 2008, 04:36:31 PM
Sorry, Calico - didn't mean to get off topic.   ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on January 14, 2008, 05:00:14 PM
Thats my jurisdiction  ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on January 14, 2008, 05:36:42 PM
This is not meant to be a complaint, but more of a current state of affairs report:

Unfortunately, my progress from here on out is nearly halted until this update comes out.  Of course, I'm still going to use it to dial in my current work.

Bugs: 

I have a few new tests I've been trying to run using water specularity, but it always crashes on resolutions at or above 640x480. 

I also have some images that are affected by the displacement shadow bug.  Hopefully this update will resolve or atleast minimize this.

Node network "movements" eventually cause a crash, though this can be dealt with since it still allows a save of the .tgd

The application crashes if image projection is used and then the camera is moved around in the scene.

Product Functionality improvements:

multicore support - this is one of the most important improvements needed in my book, especially since the renderer is not optimized for speed yet.   Having to render individual crops on 4 separate cores is a pain in the rear, and the GI bug means I have to "overlap", else have visible bands in the image.  The overlapped areas are wasted render areas (aka wasted time).  I found that a good overlap is 12%, and on 4 cores, that means 4 areas of 12% overlap, so 48% is wasted.  This is still better than rendering with 1 core, but still, its a bummer. 

shader transparency - definitely looking forward to this increase of functionality

fractal preview window - this will be very valuable for sure.

better renderer - possibly improved for speed and shadow/GI accuracy.  I know this is being worked.

Final thoughts:  With these bug fixes, the application will be untouchable... but until then, its almost a show stopper.  If you look at the public galleries, there really aren't many high res images generated by TG2 yet, since the rendertimes are just so long.  I know of one incredible artist who gave up on TG2 and went back to TG1 due to this.

Additionally, I think the paying user community could really use frequent micro-updates, rather than less frequent larger updates.  This makes the application more useable.  If this is not possible, atleast more communications on progress of the application, with samples.  I want to see how water transparency will look, and/or comparison images between the old and new renderer, even if just to pique our curiosities!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on January 14, 2008, 05:40:04 PM
LOL!!!  I just read this (busy troubleshooting the Giant Rabbit's software studio).

 ;D

Sorry, Calico - didn't mean to get off topic.   ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on January 14, 2008, 05:42:40 PM
Speaking of samples, do you guys have any current samples of the new technology yet?  I think this is something we'd all love to see, even if it will be some time before we get new updates.

For instance, when I first saw TG2's example images, I was pretty impressed, but when I saw Oshyan's Mt. St. Helen's render, I had my cash in hand, ready to buy TG2 as soon as it was available!  Then I saw Luc Bianco's work, and was even more fired up and ready to buy.

Anyway, if you guys have any sample renders of some of the new functionality, be sure and post one.   8)

-Jeff

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on January 14, 2008, 05:44:20 PM
Moodflow - Agreed.

I have quite a few TGDs that cannot stand the displacements that I have given them.  This is not because of over-displacement, but due to memory trashing / crashing.  I have pretty much set TG2 aside, until the next update. 

There might a good reason why no one has tried this level of a program yet. 

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on January 14, 2008, 05:45:14 PM
^ Agree
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ton on January 14, 2008, 05:46:05 PM
Did anybody mention baking GI yet?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on January 14, 2008, 06:03:04 PM
Did anybody mention baking GI yet?

I think I remember someone mentioning it, but I 2nd this as a great idea.  Properly generated GI is the defining element for realism in images in my book.  GI is what makes images standout from being flat cardboard, plastic, circus tent renders.   TG2's GI seems to be quite accurate, and baking would save on some aspects of render time, especially when it came to multiple test renders.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on January 14, 2008, 06:16:47 PM
This has probably been answered somewhere but as a few of you may know my searching techniques have always been, shall we say, *********************t ;D
Anyhoo, if I buy TG2 now I get the update to the full version free, that's stated on the main website. But if I wait till the release, is the price likely to go up?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on January 14, 2008, 07:51:13 PM
Yes.

But if I wait till the release, is the price likely to go up?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: DeathTwister on January 15, 2008, 12:20:12 AM
Don't ya just love the bleeding edge? ROTFL lol lol lol lol
DT
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on January 15, 2008, 01:58:32 AM
Don't ya just love the bleeding edge? ROTFL lol lol lol lol
DT

I do, best to have a team of paramedics on stand by just encase...standing by to give a transfusion of fun if required!  ;D

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel     
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on January 15, 2008, 12:08:23 PM
multicore support - this is one of the most important improvements needed in my book, especially since the renderer is not optimized for speed yet.

This is aslo in my book. I got my new computer the day after the beta was supposed to be released.

Additionally, I think the paying user community could really use frequent micro-updates, rather than less frequent larger updates.  This makes the application more useable.  If this is not possible, atleast more communications on progress of the application, with samples.  I want to see how water transparency will look, and/or comparison images between the old and new renderer, even if just to pique our curiosities!

I want some more info too. I want to see water transparencey :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Marcos Silveira on January 15, 2008, 05:44:49 PM
Agree, wanna see water transparency too and wanna see it NOW!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on January 15, 2008, 07:11:20 PM
All things in due time my children....
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on January 15, 2008, 09:36:33 PM
You know I would like to see a metaball functionality somehow, it would be cool to use in for atmo and see at two planets tear each others atmos off. Just dreams though.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on January 17, 2008, 03:29:24 AM
Well I don't have any real specifics to report, but work is definitely continuing. Essentially we are struggling with the well-known difficulties of multithreading, combined with the complexities of a cutting-edge, unique rendering system. It's quite simply taking much longer than we hoped and anticipated to work out all the kinks. The end results should be well worth it, which is why we continue to struggle with it, but it's certainly frustrating every day that goes by in which we can't release to you guys. We very much appreciate your support and patience.

I'll work on getting some example images as soon as I can, although of course transparency is going to be the only major thing to show.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on January 17, 2008, 04:14:23 AM
Oshyan,

Thanks for the update and keeping us in the loop.  This is incredible news to hear.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on January 17, 2008, 12:50:50 PM
I feel as frustrated as any of us can feel (not counting Planetside), but I'm completely convinced that if anyone can do it, you guys can.  Just don't quit.  That's always the key, eh?

It's quite simply taking much longer than we hoped and anticipated to work out all the kinks. The end results should be well worth it...
- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on February 01, 2008, 05:44:29 PM
I was just wondering.... what is really the cutting-edge unique rendering system? What does this mean?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Lucio on February 01, 2008, 06:01:12 PM
That means TG2 ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on February 01, 2008, 07:38:58 PM
That means TG2 ;D

Aye, well said.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 01, 2008, 07:39:56 PM
hehe
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ton on February 01, 2008, 09:00:35 PM
I was just wondering.... what is really the cutting-edge unique rendering system? What does this mean?

 :P

Simply, it'll rock!! But we have to be patient..  nobody can work magic.. ..
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 01, 2008, 09:03:18 PM
I beg to differ, Gandalf can work magic.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on February 01, 2008, 09:22:41 PM
I beg to differ, Gandalf can work magic.

I thought Matt was Gandalf.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mr_Lamppost on February 01, 2008, 09:28:26 PM
I thought Matt was Gandalf.


Merlin surely  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 01, 2008, 09:32:36 PM
he would need a long white beard for either however.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 01, 2008, 09:55:31 PM
Will, have you seen him (Matt)?  How do we know he doesn't have a long white beard? 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on February 01, 2008, 09:57:52 PM
I've always pictured Matt as having a big white beard. Kinda like a great big jolly magic wielding Gandalf Santa bringing gifts of cutting-edge -- and unique -- rendering systems (a.k.a TG 2).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 01, 2008, 10:06:31 PM
lol
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on February 01, 2008, 10:53:40 PM
I'm pretty sure Matt has red hair, so... it would be odd if he had a white beard.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Sethren on February 01, 2008, 10:55:31 PM
Red hair and a white beard. Is he a human Peppermint Candy Cane?  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 01, 2008, 10:57:11 PM
I'm waiting for matt to come and defend himself.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 02, 2008, 12:28:18 AM
Will, he's too busy trying to create and debug the Number 9 button you requested.  No time for anything else or for shaving his white beard or for combing his red hair.   

What's a wizard to do?

 ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 02, 2008, 12:51:19 AM
I can just see it: Button Number Nine: "Work Faster!" Matt: "I'm trying! I'm trying!" Button Number Nine: "Bow to me!!"
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 02, 2008, 02:06:45 AM
I've searched the Internet far and wide.  There's nothing on this Button #9.  These uniquely new innovations can only mean one thing - programmers are at the root of it. 

We can only hope for light of day for Planetside's groks.  Our prayers our with you in your time of need.

Send up a flair to let us know you're still on your grok island.  Or just simply release that shiny Beta, Button #9 and all.   ;D

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on February 02, 2008, 02:52:09 AM
Just curious... any updated release date of beta?  I've been avoiding playing around too much in terragen2 the past bit cause I want the multi-core support so bad :P

Even a lil hint? Is it near?

I'm all for giving you guys the time to make it work properly and get those pesky bugs out... but I'm also craving the ability to use all 4 of my cores ;)  (without having to split up the image and etc etc which is a pain)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on February 02, 2008, 02:53:48 AM
I was just wondering.... what is really the cutting-edge unique rendering system? What does this mean?

TG2 relies on rendertime displacement more heavily than almost any other rendering system, so it needs to be extremely good at it. It also has a stand-out planetary atmosphere model. Those are really its strengths and the parts that make it unique and, in some ways, "cutting-edge".

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: squirreltape on February 03, 2008, 04:56:24 PM
Glad to know you guys are so keen to release a version that you know won't be crippled by a foreseen circimstance.  Keep up the good work :)... after all, if it's worth doing then it's worth doing properly eh? even if that does mean inevitable delays

(I'm off back to playing god with planet surfaces in the meantime :D)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on February 03, 2008, 05:15:02 PM
Well, its been nearly a month since they were going to release it, and im sure planetside are doing their best to get this version out..

but damned...every day I look for that e-mail for the beta release:'(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on February 03, 2008, 05:17:55 PM
but damned...every day I look for that e-mail for the beta release:'(

Me too :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 03, 2008, 06:56:39 PM
Me too.   :P  <-- Notice dribble on end of tongue.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on February 03, 2008, 07:00:00 PM
It's just like the release of the tech preview, my grandads funeral was on the same day as the release, inconsiderate sod ::) :D I had to floor it home to download it.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on February 03, 2008, 11:25:46 PM
It's just like the release of the tech preview, my grandads funeral was on the same day as the release, inconsiderate sod ::) :D I had to floor it home to download it.
Haha, wow. The idea of flooring it home after a funeral to download a piece of software really cracks me up.  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Dark Fire on February 04, 2008, 06:44:27 PM
Well, its been nearly a month since they were going to release it, and im sure planetside are doing their best to get this version out..

but damned...every day I look for that e-mail for the beta release:'(
We all know that at least a month can be added onto any Planetside predicted release date (no offence, but it's true). Anyway, on the plus side, having the technology preview around is helping me to introduce people to the wonders of Terragen 2...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on February 04, 2008, 07:05:12 PM
We all know that at least a month can be added onto any Planetside predicted release date (no offence, but it's true). Anyway, on the plus side, having the technology preview around is helping me to introduce people to the wonders of Terragen 2...
haha me too, I hope the beta comes soon though, just ordered a core 2 duo 3.0ghz wolfdale, want to use those 2 cores.

@nvseal: yeah well, I never liked the miserable sod anyway.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on February 06, 2008, 03:27:02 PM
Anybody know if the Alpha Testers have their hands on the Beta release that was to be out Jan 4? Just wondering if there's any light at  the end of the tunnel? Matt said it might be a few weeks and it's been a month.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 06, 2008, 04:22:34 PM
Good question.  But, it might be another month, which is fine with me.  As long as it's working wonders without the blunders, brilliant.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on February 06, 2008, 05:25:10 PM
I don't mind if it's going to take another month.
Though I'm very very curious and eager to see some examples like transparency.
Oshyan promised us a few weeks ago he might be able to arrange some examples, but haven't heared or seen anyone of him yet.

Martin
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on February 06, 2008, 10:11:44 PM
I figure I'll be honest and speak my mind.  I'm starting to lose the interest in making new images due to the bugs and very slow rendertimes at this point.  I know they have some of these issues resolved.  I wish they would release what they do have, so work, play, and research can continue.  I am really for micro-updates, as this makes the product more functional for the user.

Otherwise, I am behind Planetside, 100%.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on February 06, 2008, 10:49:49 PM
That's pretty much how I'm thinking about that too.
It's hard to actually use the program when you run into bugs and day-long renders as soon as you create something that's not an average image. The more powerful a feature is, the less likely its stable.
 
If Planetside needs more than the "few weeks" announced on 4th of january, a new announcement would be nice. (It's been almost five weeks and we're getting out of "few".)

I'm looking forward to the beta. :) I got several projects that need a stable TG2 so I can actually render them the way I want.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 06, 2008, 10:55:49 PM
Yea but its planetside, by "a few more weeks" it means keep essentially "when its done"

I also use it less then I use to but it more because I'm doing studies in XSI.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on February 06, 2008, 11:56:06 PM
I figure I'll be honest and speak my mind.  I'm starting to lose the interest in making new images due to the bugs and very slow rendertimes at this point.  I know they have some of these issues resolved.  I wish they would release what they do have, so work, play, and research can continue.  I am really for micro-updates, as this makes the product more functional for the user.

Otherwise, I am behind Planetside, 100%.



I agree. I need faster rendertime and support for multicore. I don't do much with Terragen these days.

If Planetside needs more than the "few weeks" announced on 4th of january, a new announcement would be nice. (It's been almost five weeks and we're getting out of "few".)

That would be nice. I like a little more info.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 07, 2008, 01:19:20 AM
@Moodflow - I've found just distancing myself from TG2 helps.  I've completely just relegated my time to experimentation without rendering or to only rendering to find out what something might do.  Scenes aren't coming out like I want and I'm actually amazed how you and others have been able to come up with such incredible stuff.

@Planetside - Programming is a science and an art.  I'd rather you take your time and do it the very best you can.  An announcement, as others have suggested, would do a lot to keep people from pulling their hair out.  Telling us what's going on, since we're your testers as well, would go a long way towards helping us trust you.

Of course, as always, this is what I'm thinking.  Without knowing all the ins and outs, it leaves me somewhat riding the fence, which is where I'll stay until the next release.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on February 07, 2008, 03:09:21 AM
Unfortunately there's not much to "announce" except that work continues and there is progress. It is slow - much slower than we'd like - but there's no getting around it. We would have released more frequent updates before now except that the renderer overhaul really makes it difficult to do interim releases. We've essentially torn apart the entire rendering process and are now rebuilding it piece by piece so it is multithreaded and scalable. Until all the pieces are back together it's difficult or impossible to just shoehorn "what's been done so far" into a release that you can all play with. All the parts of the whole have to work together to show improvement and be stable, so as much as we'd like to be giving you more to chew on in the meantime, it's just not feasible.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on February 07, 2008, 04:21:04 AM
Unfortunately there's not much to "announce" except that work continues and there is progress. It is slow - much slower than we'd like - but there's no getting around it. We would have released more frequent updates before now except that the renderer overhaul really makes it difficult to do interim releases. We've essentially torn apart the entire rendering process and are now rebuilding it piece by piece so it is multithreaded and scalable. Until all the pieces are back together it's difficult or impossible to just shoehorn "what's been done so far" into a release that you can all play with. All the parts of the whole have to work together to show improvement and be stable, so as much as we'd like to be giving you more to chew on in the meantime, it's just not feasible.

- Oshyan

appreciate the straight up answer Oshyan!...


talking about being stable....I have been using TG2 on vista ultimate 64-bit since the latest update and I have to admit that it hasnt crashed or froze even once.....as far as stability of the program is concerned...its very good at the moment!....I was actually surprised when I realized this...no other windows application has worked so seemingly for me when it comes to stability....
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on February 07, 2008, 05:21:27 AM
thanks Oshyan ^^
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on February 07, 2008, 08:37:42 AM
I'm still using it a lot in production. Coming from the days were all painting was done using a house brick (mouse) I just factor in the long render times and try to make a scene as efficient as possible. I still keep stumbling across things that improve the look as well as learning the app more, and when it comes to the proper release it'll just mean better and faster rendering  ;)

Will, nice one with learning XSI, my other weapon of choice  :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 07, 2008, 10:46:17 AM
thanks Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 07, 2008, 12:40:15 PM
Thanks for the message, Oshyan.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on February 07, 2008, 03:33:56 PM
Oshyan, yes many thanks for the information.   8)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on February 07, 2008, 03:34:54 PM
finally some specific words from you oshyan :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on February 07, 2008, 03:52:23 PM
Not to rain on the parade, but...

Frankly, I have a real problem believing any of this. My trust dissipated when I read here in the forum that an entire new rendering system was being incorporated 6 weeks (IIRC) before the widely publicized planned release. Let's be real, shall we? You don't completely replace a critical (indeed, central) component of a complex system with a new, completely untested version if you have any intention of releasing it within 6 weeks. The fact that Planetside did just that, while publicly maintaining the release would happen on schedule, says to me that there is a disconnect between information released here and their real intentions/evaluations. It's nice the latest 'status report' has given some of you the warm fuzzies; personally, I'm a little dubious.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Fenring on February 07, 2008, 04:08:24 PM
While i appreciate the new information, If i have to speak my mind ill say this technology preview release is just bad PR, i use the old terragen for texture making in the battlefield 2 series (with a little help from photoshop) and had great hopes for terragen 2 to improve in this department but also to make skydomes that would be signifigantly better than in old TG, but since the render times are so long and many of the atmosphere features undocumented i find it incredibly incredibly frustrating to work with. For ground textures the minimum resolution is 1024x1024 but more common is 4096x4096 in bigger bf2 levels, also skydomes are 1024x1024 5 render pictures. Later converted to a hemisphere in HDRshop. I think i have made one skybox that i was satisfied with in more than half a year. With render times of 3 days for an entire skydome (that looked good in preview but crap in final version). Also other issues like GI cant be used in skydomes, top down view button missing for quick texture rendering.

With times of learning and render speed like this the TG2 preview is for my production completely useless! I had great hopes for the beta and was confident that now i could finaly write a tutorial about skybox making in this program, unfortunately it didnt happen. Also the team im working on was in desperate need of new skydomes so it ended with me buying a new DVD with skybox textures (360 degree pictures made by specialized photographers) that cost more than the double of the TG2 preview  :( This also is because terragen 0.9 cant compete in this department for newer games anymore. So baiscly i have ditched terragen2 and gone back to the old terragen for texture making and skyboxes now sadly comes from another source. Planetside really should have waited to release this until it was beta since the current release is making people angry. At one time I was so angry after trying for several weeks just learning the basic functions that i considered giving my license away.

This may sound very harsh but I think Planetside should get feedback from all sorts of users, maybe my expectations very to high (since the old terragen was so good) and maybe people who work with terragen 2 for other purposes than mine get more out of it.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on February 07, 2008, 04:19:43 PM
Not to rain on the parade, but...

Frankly, I have a real problem believing any of this. My trust dissipated when I read here in the forum that an entire new rendering system was being incorporated 6 weeks (IIRC) before the widely publicized planned release. Let's be real, shall we? You don't completely replace a critical (indeed, central) component of a complex system with a new, completely untested version if you have any intention of releasing it within 6 weeks. The fact that Planetside did just that, while publicly maintaining the release would happen on schedule, says to me that there is a disconnect between information released here and their real intentions/evaluations. It's nice the latest 'status report' has given some of you the warm fuzzies; personally, I'm a little dubious.


Well I'm glad someone broke the ice speaking their true feelings. Thank You!  All one has to do is read Matt's post about the delay on Jan. 4 and this reply by Oshyan. I assume somewhere in there is the truth?  I will say I am in awe of what TGTP is sometimes capable of yet on the other hand I can't help but think back at how TG9 was dropped like a lead balloon and not completed as we were told. I'm referring to the Multiple water levels, Cloud Layers and  boulders.  To me this lack of communication with paying customers is total disrespect. Believe me, I own Small Business and Good Customer Relations/Support is of utmost importance. I wish someone would get some conscience. I'm feeling like a Mushroom, You keep me in the Dark and once in a great while you feed me some Horse Shit.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on February 07, 2008, 05:30:40 PM
Huh? As far as I know the change from the original renderer to the new improved multithreaded version started in september last year and it was planned since the start of development. Also when they say something about a "new renderer", they don't mean designing a new one from scratch. Significant changes requiring a new iteration of alpha-testing maybe, but it's not like they're rewriting everything.

"This may sound very harsh but I think Planetside should get feedback from all sorts of users"
Those users exist and they're called alpha testers ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on February 07, 2008, 05:42:06 PM
I believe something like the term 'completely new renderer' has been used repeatedly here by PS staff.

And if a redesign is extensive enough as to invalidate all previous alpha testing, it's completely new as far as production quality code is concerned.

Whatever. Josh has been on this train before. You keep believing what you like.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on February 07, 2008, 06:00:52 PM
I'm pretty sure Matt said not to long ago that he was going to rip out the current render engine so he could write a new one. I'll bet that the reason for this is very simple. I belive Matt want to re-write the render engine from start and this time make it right and clean instead of trying to fix all the bugs in the current one.

This is something I ofen do with the images I make. When I'm working on something I realize that there is a lot of things I can improve, but it's just better and easyer to do it from the beginning. I already know what I need to do.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 07, 2008, 06:04:38 PM
So...Planetside (Oshyan or someone on the Planetside team who wants to answer and has official credibility), please clarify for all of us -

1.  Did you implement a brand new renderer from scratch before announcing the Beta release?  If so, did this mean a complete new build and an Alpha Testing Madness scenario to bring TGTP up to speed?

2.  Are you going to definitely finish TG2 to a 1.0 state, before pursuing TG3?

These two questions, if answered truthfully and diplomatically, could potentially squelch a lot of the present negative press.  It could also give us something to really look forward to.  After all, the world has enough cynicism.  I'm ready for a change.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on February 07, 2008, 06:55:42 PM
huhuhu
we thought TG2 was about to get finished and we all hope for final version... but it seems that we gonna have a new beta, guys ;)
But... how can the new render engine be more stable than the current one... ? without testing ?
anyway... I'll wait !
good luck to you all Planetside staff !!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dimeolas on February 07, 2008, 07:16:48 PM
Some years back Terragen was the first graphics program I used. It has always been incredible. The fine results and ease of use got me hooked into digital graphics for good. Of course I would love to have a finished product. But things are what they are and I cant change them. Just do what you guys need to do and when its done i`ll be waiting.
:)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on February 07, 2008, 11:11:13 PM
1.  Did you implement a brand new renderer from scratch before announcing the Beta release?  If so, did this mean a complete new build and an Alpha Testing Madness scenario to bring TGTP up to speed?

No, this is not correct. Oshyan's choice of words was unfortunate - important parts of the renderer have undergone significant changes but we have not rewritten the entire renderer. That would of course take many man-years.

Two major changes have happened to the render over the last 6 months:

A. Part of the rendering pipeline was reorganised so that rendering could be multi-threaded for efficient support of multi-core computers. That work is essentially complete, although testing may still discover some bugs that will need to be fixed. It was not possible to release that work as an incremental update because the ray-tracing functions in the renderer were deliberately disabled during multi-threading development. They were deliberately disabled because we also planned to make changes to the ray-tracing functions (see the next point) and did not want to waste time multi-threading parts of the renderer which were going to be changed very soon.

B. The ray-tracing functions (which are responsible for shadows, reflections, transparency and global illumination capture) have been significantly improved so that (i) transparency can be rendered to a high quality, (ii) reflection and shadow quality are improved, (iii) crashes no longer occur from rendering reflections at higher resolutions. Much of the existing code has been reused, but some of the old functions which were buggy and responsible for mysterious crashes have been rewritten using experience gained from the earlier implementation and avoiding many of the mistakes made the first time around. Getting some of the details right in this new implementation has delayed the release of the Beta. I would say this is now 90% complete. I believe that is an accurate estimate.

Quote
2.  Are you going to definitely finish TG2 to a 1.0 state, before pursuing TG3?

Absolutely, although the final Terragen 2 will be released with the version number 2.0, not 1.0. The upcoming Beta will be a feature-complete beta version of the final Terragen version 2.0, and most of the differences between the Beta and the final Terragen 2.0 will be bug fixes or minor tweaks.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on February 07, 2008, 11:28:19 PM
Not to rain on the parade, but...

Frankly, I have a real problem believing any of this. My trust dissipated when I read here in the forum that an entire new rendering system was being incorporated 6 weeks (IIRC) before the widely publicized planned release. Let's be real, shall we? You don't completely replace a critical (indeed, central) component of a complex system with a new, completely untested version if you have any intention of releasing it within 6 weeks. The fact that Planetside did just that, while publicly maintaining the release would happen on schedule, says to me that there is a disconnect between information released here and their real intentions/evaluations. It's nice the latest 'status report' has given some of you the warm fuzzies; personally, I'm a little dubious.

Hi Harvey,

That work had already been ongoing for about 4 months, which we'd talked about openly, before we finally made the decision to announce that release date. Obviously that turned out to be a very bad decision, but it did appear to be very close to completion at that point. I don't intend to make the mistake of announcing release dates in advance ever again, unless the product is already sitting in my hands (figuratively).

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on February 08, 2008, 12:22:01 AM
Its good to here that work is on going to make TG2 a stable product, however there is a caveat to this (as with all software) and that is even after release of the final release there may still be some issues that may come up but these can be reported here in the usual manner. There is a technique which is many used to find security related bugs though it dose have other uses called Fuzz Testing and I was wondering weather that method would be applicable to the testing of TG2 to find bugs that cannot be found by other methods?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel       
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 08, 2008, 12:23:36 AM
Matt,

Thank you very much.  You've helped restore my hope that people can be good.  I appreciate your thorough explanations. 

Now, I can rest at night.   :D

I don't care if it takes until June.  I'll wait.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 08, 2008, 12:34:13 AM
Thats all well and good but I'm still advocating for the re-implementation of Button #9.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on February 08, 2008, 02:26:01 AM
I don't care if it takes until June.  I'll wait.

My birthday is in June.   ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on February 08, 2008, 02:28:06 AM
Hi Harvey,

That work had already been ongoing for about 4 months, which we'd talked about openly, before we finally made the decision to announce that release date. Obviously that turned out to be a very bad decision, but it did appear to be very close to completion at that point. I don't intend to make the mistake of announcing release dates in advance ever again, unless the product is already sitting in my hands (figuratively).

Matt


Hi, Matt -

Perhaps I've misunderstood, then. I admit I'm disappointed.

Re release date -  I always thought you were exposing yourself to unnecessary pressure with the hard-wired release date so far in advance. It's the business model you chose to work with, though, for better or worse.

Well, good luck. I suppose I don't have much option but to wait. I may grouse on occasion, though.   ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on February 08, 2008, 02:48:17 AM
LOL

I don't care if it takes until June.  I'll wait.

My birthday is in June.   ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on February 08, 2008, 07:08:38 AM
While i appreciate the new information, If i have to speak my mind ill say this technology preview release is just bad PR, i use the old terragen for texture making in the battlefield 2 series (with a little help from photoshop) and had great hopes for terragen 2 to improve in this department but also to make skydomes that would be signifigantly better than in old TG, but since the render times are so long and many of the atmosphere features undocumented i find it incredibly incredibly frustrating to work with.
....With times of learning and render speed like this the TG2 preview is for my production completely useless! I had great hopes for the beta and was confident that now i could finaly write a tutorial about skybox making in this program, unfortunately it didnt happen.
....This may sound very harsh but I think Planetside should get feedback from all sorts of users, maybe my expectations very to high (since the old terragen was so good) and maybe people who work with terragen 2 for other purposes than mine get more out of it.
I'd say you've learned a valuable lesson: Never commit to using any software version on a job without making sure it can do the job first, or make sure your schedule can accommodate big delays due to crashes or release delays. There are 3D apps out there costing £2000+ whose previous to last versions are being used in productions I know of, not latest versions, because of bugs, stability issues, etc. Essentially, their delays are even longer in practice, but the difference is they release when they shouldn't to avoid the so-called "bad PR" and fulfil contractual obligations.

As far as I'm concerned, kudos to a company that says they're delaying a release rather than inflict misery on a production in the form of a bad version. Few remember a release delay (you schedule for using the previous version, and deliver earlier if the next release comes in during production), but everyone remembers a bad release (you sleep at work to babysit renders).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: mr-miley on February 08, 2008, 08:22:28 AM
Our company are beta testers for a geotechnical graphical database which we use to record all our geotechnical data taken from site. Without this software we cannot function. I had to think long and herd about this, weighing up the benefits / down sides before I recomended we went with it. Our industry has whats called Liquidated Damages, where you may have to pay £300/£400/£500 A DAY for every day you are late with your report to your client!
Benefits:- we get about £4000 of software for free, we also get some of the best technical support in the software world, and we get it there and then (well, within reason, depending upon how nasty the bugs are that we find  ;D ) We (I) get to request features that suit us (I think that at the last count, the software now incorporates 16 features / functions that I have asked for). The software is also updated at least once a month (both beat and shrinkwrap), sometimes with maintenance releases and sometimes adding new features / functions.
Down side:- If we do come across a bug (or in Microsoft terms, a feature) we are stuffed till its fixed. Also I'm constantly having to update our input and output to take into account new features and functions. (Not like if you bought the shrinkwrap version, where its all there for you in one go)

My point is, If you choose to use a beta version of a piece of software professionally, don't do it lightly. If you do choose to go down that route, you MUST realise that there will be times when its a pain in the arse, when things don't work (or they do work but give results that were not expected) At the end of the dat TGTP is a beta, if you don't like that, then don't use it for anything mission critical unless you are prepared for delays etc. As with any other piece of software, I would rater have a stable, workable shrinkwrap, than one that is released on time but is full of bugs (sorry, features  ;D )

Miles
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Arandil on February 08, 2008, 06:38:23 PM
I'll be here when TG2 is ready.  Actually I'm here now, so I'll be here both before and when TG2 is ready.   Wait, I'll be here both before, during and after TG2 is ready.  No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: DYN_DaTa on February 15, 2008, 06:24:49 PM
What about a developer's 'diary' or some kind of roadmap to know about what's being implemented, to-do lists, render times and multi-core improvements and so on?.

As far as i know, latest update announcement was on September 27, 2007 (5 months ago)  :-\
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on February 15, 2008, 06:40:04 PM
If your looking for announcements, you might find them in the "Announcements" section of this forum:
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?board=13.0
 :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on February 15, 2008, 06:41:35 PM
What about a developer's 'diary' or some kind of roadmap to know about what's being implemented, to-do lists, render times and multi-core improvements and so on?.

I like this idea. That way we don't need to ask so many questions all the time. We can just read what they are working on.

As far as i know, latest update announcement was on September 27, 2007 (5 months ago)  :-\

We got a update from Matt in this thread on page 18.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on February 15, 2008, 07:38:17 PM
On a slightly diffrent note:

When I made that workaround for the bug in the planet surface shader, Oshyan posted saying certian buggy nodes may be taken out of TG 2, at this point in the Beta build is that shader still included?!?!

and If so has any improvements/bug fixes been made to it?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on February 16, 2008, 02:54:56 AM
We haven't done the shader selection pass yet, so nothing much has changed in this regard. Those decisions will be made shortly. I can't say whether the Planet Surface Shader will still be included unfortunately. But I can say that it hasn't been improved or fixed yet and it's unlikely to be before final release.

- Oshyan

On a slightly diffrent note:

When I made that workaround for the bug in the planet surface shader, Oshyan posted saying certian buggy nodes may be taken out of TG 2, at this point in the Beta build is that shader still included?!?!

and If so has any improvements/bug fixes been made to it?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on February 16, 2008, 09:43:32 AM
We haven't done the shader selection pass yet, so nothing much has changed in this regard. Those decisions will be made shortly. I can't say whether the Planet Surface Shader will still be included unfortunately. But I can say that it hasn't been improved or fixed yet and it's unlikely to be before final release.

- Oshyan


Right, so say it gets taken out of beta and the release, can we expect to see it added in an update after release?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on February 17, 2008, 03:36:07 AM
If it were taken out I really don't know if it would be brought back later. The simple fact is it is an extremely basic, problematic and quirky node and any such error-prone and limited-use node is likely to be removed for support and stability reasons. I understand that you find it useful but compared to the amount of complaints and questions it has generated, its evident usefulness overall seems quite low. It was developed as an experiment and included in the Technology Preview as part of the overall experimental nature of the release. As many other things have evolved and been changed or even removed over the lifecycle of the Technology preview due to testing and feedback, so too may this be affected, and if so it would be for the overall greater good of the end product.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 17, 2008, 12:48:32 PM
Will the crater shader be fixed or is that out too?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on February 17, 2008, 11:30:55 PM
What needs to be fixed about the crater shader?

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 18, 2008, 10:16:11 AM
only works around 0,0,0 you can't put them on the sides on planets.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on February 18, 2008, 01:59:31 PM
only works around 0,0,0 you can't put them on the sides on planets.

In fact, Will, you can!
My little planet render 'dandinO' has a crater shader on the very side of the planet.

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3187.0
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on February 18, 2008, 06:46:43 PM
hmm didn't last time I used it, but whatever you proved me wrong.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Dark Fire on February 26, 2008, 05:19:48 PM
If it were taken out I really don't know if it would be brought back later. The simple fact is it is an extremely basic, problematic and quirky node and any such error-prone and limited-use node is likely to be removed for support and stability reasons. I understand that you find it useful but compared to the amount of complaints and questions it has generated, its evident usefulness overall seems quite low. It was developed as an experiment and included in the Technology Preview as part of the overall experimental nature of the release. As many other things have evolved and been changed or even removed over the lifecycle of the Technology preview due to testing and feedback, so too may this be affected, and if so it would be for the overall greater good of the end product.

- Oshyan
I personally think that the planet surface shader should be removed. It is quite a random node, and I'm fairly sure that it was behind all of the errors that cropped up in my video podcast. Also, I have encountered very few errors while not using it, and it doesn't seem to encourage the best use of the other nodes...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on February 26, 2008, 05:48:03 PM
Hi Planetside.  Do you have any sample renders showing transparency of water and/or materials out yet that we could see?  I'd love to see how its going to look.   8)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on February 26, 2008, 06:20:33 PM
Hi Planetside.  Do you have any sample renders showing transparency of water and/or materials out yet that we could see?  I'd love to see how its going to look.   8)

So am I! ;D
Please...?  :'(

 ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on February 26, 2008, 08:31:28 PM
Anyone even know how to use the planet surface shader successfully? :D I doubt it's a bug in the function but no matter what settings I use all I get is a big dark blue mass
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on February 26, 2008, 09:03:50 PM
Anyone even know how to use the planet surface shader successfully? :D I doubt it's a bug in the function but no matter what settings I use all I get is a big dark blue mass

I've used it successfully, but have gotten much better results using power fractal stacks and masks.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Dark Fire on February 27, 2008, 03:23:45 PM
The last two posts prove my points - the planet surface shader is buggy, and it discourages creativity (stuff created without it makes Terragen look better, which should increase investment in it and hopefully allow Planetside to expand, thus making everyone happier). :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on March 07, 2008, 10:57:47 PM
I have a question which doesn't seem to have been asked before (I did a search but couldn't find any thing) I maybe buying a new system shortly but am not sure weather I should have it RAID configured or not which is aggregate on the final release of TG2 or one shortly there after is going to be RAID compatible (The Configurations open to me are RAID 0,1, and 2) is it planed to make TG2 RAID compatible, if not I won't bother getting my new system RAID configured?  ;D

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on March 07, 2008, 11:02:40 PM
Most application software does not need to be specifically "RAID compatible". The general purpose of RAID is in fact to be *transparent* to the applications and only managed by the operating system or, in some cases, dedicated hardware and drivers. So your question isn't really applicable and that's probably why it hasn't been asked before. RAID 0 (striping) is unlikely to provide any significant performance increase in TG2 specifically since disk access is already generally avoided.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on March 08, 2008, 01:21:21 AM
Raid can provide higher data rates than usual. That can be an advantage if your system has to do a lot of disk swapping (when more memory is needed than you have as physical ram).
But hard disk access is about 100 times slower than accessing ram and will increase render times accordingly. So if a lot of disk swapping occurs, disk access and therefore rendering will be faster.. but more like "it only takes 4 months to render instead of 3! hooray!"

If you have money left and want to spend it on something to improve TG2s performance, it will be cpu and memory. And it should have a 64bit os if you want to use 4GB ram or more.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on March 08, 2008, 11:03:26 AM
Raid can provide higher data rates than usual. That can be an advantage if your system has to do a lot of disk swapping (when more memory is needed than you have as physical ram).
But hard disk access is about 100 times slower than accessing ram and will increase render times accordingly. So if a lot of disk swapping occurs, disk access and therefore rendering will be faster.. but more like "it only takes 4 months to render instead of 3! hooray!"

If you have money left and want to spend it on something to improve TG2s performance, it will be cpu and memory. And it should have a 64bit os if you want to use 4GB ram or more.

I have no problem with getting a 64bit OS but my understanding is that TG2 will be a 32bit application until some time after the gold release this year, meaning that for the foreseeable future after the Gold Release TG2 will have the same 2GB Application Address Space limits as all other 32bit applications; meaning that until TG2 is 64bit ready it will not be using system resources of a 64bit system to their potential this seems counterproductive to efficiency and time management and resource (Human and System) management.

The workstation I am looking at has the scalability required and has dual CPU capability so once TG2 has its multi-threading on stream it should handle things with ease I will start with 4GB of RAM (DDR2 SDRAM FBD MEMORY, 667MHz, ECC (8 DIMMS)) to start with as I have been through the RAM vs Price metric for the system I am looking at and 4GB seems to be the most cost effective in my price range, more will be added latter when its most cost effective for me to do so if for nothing else to have sufficient head room for system, CPU and Render performance.

I only asked about RAID out of interest as setting up seems overly complex when ordering the system so I will leave well alone, I think I will go with XP Pro (64bit) rather than Vista as there are major driver issues with that OS that I can not do any thing about my Printer and Digital Camera are among the concerns, I have searched both on Google and there are no Vista drivers for them.

 ;D

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel                 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on March 08, 2008, 11:47:30 AM
I have no problem with getting a 64bit OS but my understanding is that TG2 will be a 32bit application until some time after the gold release this year, meaning that for the foreseeable future after the Gold Release TG2 will have the same 2GB Application Address Space limits as all other 32bit applications;
32bit systems actually have a 4GB address space, but XP takes 2GB for itself so there are only 2GB left for applications. On 64bit systems, windows can allocate the full 4GB to a 32bit app while taking the address space it needs for itself from elsewhere. So, you can already benefit from a 64bit system, even if the application is only 32bit. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64bit#Pros_and_cons
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on March 08, 2008, 11:53:54 AM
I have no problem with getting a 64bit OS but my understanding is that TG2 will be a 32bit application until some time after the gold release this year, meaning that for the foreseeable future after the Gold Release TG2 will have the same 2GB Application Address Space limits as all other 32bit applications;
32bit systems actually have a 4GB address space, but XP takes 2GB for itself so there are only 2GB left for applications. On 64bit systems, windows can allocate the full 4GB to a 32bit app while taking the address space it needs for itself from elsewhere. So, you can already benefit from a 64bit system, even if the application is only 32bit. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64bit#Pros_and_cons

Thank you for the information that is some thing I didn't know before a shall take time to read it properly in future.  ;D

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 08, 2008, 11:57:54 AM
Yea I use a dual boot, since x64 doesn't work well with Itunes or x-fi driver but it allows for crazy high poly counts while sculpting.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on March 11, 2008, 02:41:33 PM
I run 64bit vista ultimate on my desktop, and 64bit ubuntu (with vmware xp pro 32bit) on my laptop.  64bit has come quite far in driver support etc so its quite usable.  Also the ability to run 32bit programs has become a lot more stable and I have yet to really hit a program that doesn't work.  Terragen runs great, and I mostly can't wait til it can use multi-core.  Also Terragen is still usable in a 64bit os, it just still has to run with 32bit limitations until the 64 bit edition comes out.

Another quick note: If your planning on 4 gigs of ram, yes 32bit "technically" supports it, but odds are you'll not have the ability to use all of it within windows due to how memory is added n such.  Like the graphics memory is loaded first (so i have 1gig of graphics ram, so I was already down to 3 gigs of my 4 gigs of ram, then another chunk goes off too to from something else, so i registered like 2.65 gigs of my 4 gigs of ram).

So, if you want to use all 4 gigs, or are thinking of maybe more (since ram is cheap, i plan on buying another 4gigs later), i highly suggest 64bit. 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Orangebugpro on March 11, 2008, 08:50:20 PM
I'm also using 64bit Vista Ultimate.  I have not run into any driver or software issues so far.  I've got about 3 64bit programs installed on my machine, and countless 32bit programs, none of them have any issues running.
I've got a quad core CPU, the Intel C2Q Q6600 so I too am waiting for multi-core.
aaand I've got 6gigs of ram, which I almost never use up.  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: enkidu on March 11, 2008, 09:53:01 PM
Can we get an update or eta on TG2 release date? I really need this for some work I am doing and the beta is too limiting for it :S
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: choronr on March 11, 2008, 10:42:52 PM
Since I'm getting up there in years, I'm wondering how close you are to making the final release?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 12, 2008, 10:26:19 AM
Only when you can take this fly from my hand will you be ready.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on March 12, 2008, 01:38:55 PM
Can we get an update or eta on TG2 release date? I really need this for some work I am doing and the beta is too limiting for it :S

The beta isn't released yet. Thats what we are all sitting around here waiting for. ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 12, 2008, 02:20:58 PM
Hop grasser.   ;D

Only when you can take this fly from my hand will you be ready.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 13, 2008, 03:57:45 AM
Since I'm getting up there in years, I'm wondering how close you are to making the final release?


Go Figure? Three Staff Members in here tonight and not one responded to your question Bob. What's that tell you? 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 13, 2008, 03:59:19 AM
Only when you can take this fly from my hand will you be ready.

Would you please explain what exactly you mean by that??
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 13, 2008, 10:51:54 AM
ever seen the karate kid?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 13, 2008, 12:22:07 PM
ever seen the karate kid?

Yes, but you are not Mr. Miyagi.  ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on March 13, 2008, 12:41:04 PM
ever seen the karate kid?

i thought it was from Kung Fu ^^'
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on March 13, 2008, 01:41:59 PM
ever seen the karate kid?

i thought it was from Kung Fu ^^'

That was a pebble.  (http://fusionanomaly.net/kungfuwhenpebble.jpg)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 13, 2008, 02:58:08 PM
Ahhh.  Confucius say, "They must often change, who would be constant in happiness or wisdom."   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on March 13, 2008, 03:00:36 PM
topic going off topic?? ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on March 13, 2008, 03:10:36 PM
Only when you can take this fly from my hand will you be ready.

To coin an old phrase..."What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?" (Flies and Release dates???)

topic going off topic?? ;)

Agreed. ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on March 13, 2008, 03:12:53 PM
ever seen the karate kid?

Karate Kid was "Wax on...Wax off"
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 13, 2008, 03:20:47 PM
I'm not sure I care.  This release is late and there's nothing to talk about, unless we complain and moan about it.  That really helps, too.  I feel your karma...or whatever.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on March 13, 2008, 04:19:05 PM
But it would be really nice with some information from planetside.
I wont get mad if they say they are really struggling with something and they need more time.... cause then I know what's going on.
It's just good to know, you know.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on March 13, 2008, 05:25:22 PM
But it would be really nice with some information from planetside.
I wont get mad if they say they are really struggling with something and they need more time.... cause then I know what's going on.
It's just good to know, you know.

I agree.  This is what's holding me back from buying a new quad core PC.  No point in doing that until multi-core is supported.  Its also a built-in technology safe-guard as well.  The longer I wait, the better (and faster) the processors will become, so its a mixed deal.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on March 13, 2008, 07:20:12 PM
I bought myself a new computer and received it the day after the beta was supposed to be released.
Was really looking forward to a faster render engine and the support for multi-core rendering.
I'll live of course, but as I said: It would be nice with some information.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 13, 2008, 07:31:16 PM
I'll just wait.  Not saying I'm a saint or all wise.  But, this is the only option I know, outside of working on the program myself and I don't have that option.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 13, 2008, 07:52:52 PM
Most of the stability issues which were causing the delays have been solved. Some images of transparent water are being rendered right now, and I'll post some completed renders next week.

I expect that this last development phase will enter alpha testing very soon, probably near the end of next week. As you may know, we have a number of alpha testers working with our latest development builds and battling with the inevitable bugs that come with new features. This is a closed process, but we will keep you informed of the kind of feedback we get from the alpha testers as soon as it becomes available so you have some idea when we may be able to release the Beta. We're not going to jump the gun and make another ETA until we're absolutely sure it is ready for wider beta testing.

This latest development phase has been particularly rough, but I'm sorry we didn't plan better for this eventuality. We understand that it has inconvenienced many of you and sincerely appreciate your patience.

I hope you enjoy some of the images we have to show you next week :)

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on March 13, 2008, 08:11:23 PM
Thanks for the updates Matt.  I can't wait to see the latest images.   8)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 13, 2008, 08:30:47 PM
Sweet announcement.   8)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: choronr on March 13, 2008, 09:12:53 PM
For sure I'll be staying tuned; thanks for the update Matt. It's good to see progress reports like this as it fires enthusiasm!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on March 13, 2008, 09:33:06 PM
Yeah...... Thanks a lot Matt ;D

Some images of transparent water are being rendered right now, and I'll post some completed renders next week.

Next week will be awesome :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on March 13, 2008, 10:12:04 PM
:D yay update,

Cant wait for those screens :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on March 13, 2008, 10:40:06 PM
KEWL !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on March 14, 2008, 01:14:18 AM
New images! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o I can't wait!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: chefc on March 14, 2008, 02:43:52 AM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D Thanks for the update
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: mt_sabao on March 18, 2008, 08:34:22 AM
I keep coming every now and again to see if there's any developments, only to find out "a few more weeks".
This app is slowly becoming the "Duke Nukem Forever"...
In any case, good luck for the future release.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mr_Lamppost on March 18, 2008, 11:40:52 PM
Thanks for the update,  better to wait a little longer than end up with a rushed product that needs a new update every week for the foreseeable future. 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: choronr on March 20, 2008, 12:31:53 AM
I think a nice feature to add to this 'Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion' thread would be a 'Live Web Cam' watching Matt and his associates work on updating Terragen2 ...what do you think?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on March 20, 2008, 01:04:25 AM
I think this board needs better spam protection.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on March 20, 2008, 02:42:27 AM
Just made the spam captcha a bit harder. We'll see if it helps...

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: RealUser on March 20, 2008, 10:20:12 AM
Hmm, not such a bad idea! A video- or audi-blog would be veeeery nice.

-- Markus

I think a nice feature to add to this 'Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion' thread would be a 'Live Web Cam' watching Matt and his associates work on updating Terragen2 ...what do you think?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on March 20, 2008, 01:17:49 PM
Hey i want to ask a question: will there be some option to make terrain exactly as i want it? Im thinking about realizing my 2D sketches in terragen, but so far i see no good way to produce the terrain i want excluding the photoshop way but that is pretty bad and not effective. I think vue has this feature i am talking about, but i dont want to use vue at all.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on March 20, 2008, 01:40:11 PM
There's a variety of terrain generation programs out there like World Machine 2 (coming soon), L3DT, GeoControl (and probably some more). They all allow painting a terrain and each of them uses a different approach.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: buchvecny on March 20, 2008, 02:00:42 PM
uhh i know WM.... i didnt think i could paint there tho :o okay ill look it up
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on March 20, 2008, 02:09:25 PM
It can't. Only version 2 can, which isn't available yet.
But there are some samples in the development blog!
eg. http://world-machine.com/blog/?p=109
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 20, 2008, 03:51:02 PM
I think a nice feature to add to this 'Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion' thread would be a 'Live Web Cam' watching Matt and his associates work on updating Terragen2 ...what do you think?

Great Idea! Then maybe we could see those Transparent Water Images Rendering.  ;) 

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on March 20, 2008, 04:01:08 PM
Great Idea! Then maybe we could see those Transparent Water Images Rendering.  ;) 

Speaking of which, where are they? The week is almost over.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on March 20, 2008, 07:06:44 PM
Yup, the week is almost over... Come on guys, make us happy ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 20, 2008, 07:11:58 PM
Yup, the week is almost over... Come on guys, make us happy ;D

OK, Here's a sneak Peak of one of mine.  ;)





 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on March 20, 2008, 07:17:17 PM
LOL  :D So glad it hasn't been released yet  ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on March 20, 2008, 07:35:59 PM
Click here to Clean Your Monitors (http://cache.valleywag.com/assets/resources/screenclean.swf)  ;D

Then everyting will be clear (or transparent)  ;D

Thanks Mac (Terranuts)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on March 20, 2008, 09:15:45 PM
Joshbakr and sonshine777... you made me laugh !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 20, 2008, 10:07:23 PM
 ;D 

Nice work.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 20, 2008, 10:35:24 PM
heh nice.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: RealUser on March 21, 2008, 01:08:06 AM
How came this dog into my PC? *shrug*
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 21, 2008, 03:27:17 PM
Most of the stability issues which were causing the delays have been solved. Some images of transparent water are being rendered right now, and I'll post some completed renders next week.

I expect that this last development phase will enter alpha testing very soon, probably near the end of next week. As you may know, we have a number of alpha testers working with our latest development builds and battling with the inevitable bugs that come with new features. This is a closed process, but we will keep you informed of the kind of feedback we get from the alpha testers as soon as it becomes available so you have some idea when we may be able to release the Beta. We're not going to jump the gun and make another ETA until we're absolutely sure it is ready for wider beta testing.

This latest development phase has been particularly rough, but I'm sorry we didn't plan better for this eventuality. We understand that it has inconvenienced many of you and sincerely appreciate your patience.

I hope you enjoy some of the images we have to show you next week :)

Matt


I've come to the conclusion that Planetside's "concept of time" in non-existent.   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: GarryFre on March 21, 2008, 05:48:29 PM
It seems appropriate that I should post a little verse I wrote when suffering under the programmer's curse ...

Programmer's lament

I think that there shall never be
An ignoramous just like me
Who roams the help throughout the day
In a fruitless search that does not pay
For as often as I think I've found the gold
Its been declared obsolete and old
1000 bugs run and attack.
For knowledge I so clearly lack.
And when all is said and done .
The program won't compile or even run.
I search for help where err I go
For reasons I so fully know
For bugs were made for fools like me.
Who canít program and think efficiently.

Garry Freemyer - 1996
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on March 21, 2008, 06:58:35 PM
 :D   :D

Very nice.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on March 21, 2008, 07:54:12 PM
lol. Well as long as the programming and testing's still being done it doesn't really matter when the renders come.

Hint to Matt: Never give yourself a deadline, you can be sure people'll keep you to it.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on March 21, 2008, 08:00:39 PM
Hint to Matt: Never give yourself a deadline
I think he learned that already  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 22, 2008, 12:34:45 AM
Strangely enough, having a deadline can help (some) programmers bring better quality.  I can't believe (and I'm sure it isn't so in this case) that having no deadline at all makes any sense.  Anyway, when Planetside will let us see some transparency in action from the real deal, I'll be here.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on March 22, 2008, 12:48:39 AM
Yes, I'd love to see some of these images.  Anxiously awaiting this.  ::)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 22, 2008, 01:02:34 AM
The previous two posts can be paraphrased as "Hint Hint".
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 22, 2008, 01:59:12 AM
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!   :D

The previous two posts can be paraphrased as "Hint Hint".
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: RealUser on March 22, 2008, 10:42:52 AM
Where is my transparency! :-)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Arandil on March 22, 2008, 11:10:12 AM
Where's my cookie!?

 ::)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on March 22, 2008, 11:51:04 AM
It's in C:\Documents and Settings\<username>\Cookies
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 22, 2008, 01:32:19 PM
Hey thats where my cookies are!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Arandil on March 22, 2008, 02:07:15 PM
Couldn't be ..
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 22, 2008, 04:47:00 PM
Looking back to TG 9.43 and water transparency.  Better than nothing.



Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on March 22, 2008, 05:01:10 PM
If you haven't seen the images yet, it's probably because they aren't ready. If they were expected this week and aren't ready, my guess would be that the renders didn't complete as expected. Either they crashed, revealing new bugs inthe renderer, or they just took longer than expected (potentially revealing new bugs, as well).

That would be my guess, anyway.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Arandil on March 22, 2008, 05:08:01 PM
I just want to remind any non-programmers here that programming is a lot like being a goalie, the goals blocked are often taken for granted, but the goals missed are almost always front and center in the attention.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 22, 2008, 05:23:41 PM
I just want to remind any non-programmers here that programming is a lot like being a goalie, the goals blocked are often taken for granted, but the goals missed are almost always front and center in the attention.

Yeah you are right. However, I'm not sure how long you have been using TG or how long you have been waiting. But some of us have been waiting a Hell of a long time! Years and Years to be exact. And this coming in to the Forum once and awhile to tell us they are going to present something new just to appease us (to calm down the Community) and then not delivering is getting old. I have heard what you are saying so many many times and that's getting old also. If you don't know the History of Planetside or Terragen the substance of your comment to me is very shallow. But thank you anyway.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: scott8933 on March 22, 2008, 06:50:52 PM
I don't often visit this thread (26 pages and counting!) but is it just water transparency that's holding a lot of you guys up? There's got to be a workaround of some sort, no? Like a great big plane instead, use a surface shader that has some water displacement properties and is also transparent... you know, something like that?

That above image from tg1 is pretty nice, can't that export the object and texture?

Hey, just trying to help.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 23, 2008, 12:54:31 AM
Here are two simple tests showing a water plane with basic transparency. These are based on a scene that Luc Bianco sent me to test with. The water isn't anything special, but it does show that transparency is working and that the rays are being refracted by the water. I know the water's edge is a little too sharp to look natural, but that can be improved with a little work with the shaders.

Prettier scenes like that v0.9 render which joshbakr posted could easily be rendered with the new renderer. As more testing is done I think that you'll start to see some really nice images.

(Images follow below)

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Arandil on March 23, 2008, 12:55:03 AM
Yeah you are right. However, I'm not sure how long you have been using TG or how long you have been waiting. But some of us have been waiting a Hell of a long time! Years and Years to be exact. And this coming in to the Forum once and awhile to tell us they are going to present something new just to appease us (to calm down the Community) and then not delivering is getting old. I have heard what you are saying so many many times and that's getting old also. If you don't know the History of Planetside or Terragen the substance of your comment to me is very shallow. But thank you anyway.

I started using Terragen in the late nineties, honestly can't remember the year anymore (getting older ;D), so it's been a while for me too.  I've also worked in IT the entire time, and am currently a project lead and I architect enterprise wise application environments for my company.  I know precisely how IT projects go, and it's Murphy's Law every day.  It's running into unknowns you can't predict.

Planetside is going to get flak if they don't say anything, they're going to get flak if they do.  I'm sure they've thought of this many times.

If people are going to express something to the development team here, consider the practical results.

What practical result does anyone expect from umpteen people posting umpteen variations of "You're late, it sucks, and maybe you've been trying to trick us"?

EDIT:  Apart from some screenshots right after I post,  I mean?   :-\

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 23, 2008, 12:55:20 AM
Image:
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 23, 2008, 12:55:53 AM
Image:
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: choronr on March 23, 2008, 01:01:21 AM
Very impressive Matt. Thank you for the displays of your team's progress. This looks very promising!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 23, 2008, 01:11:47 AM
Well I'll be damn!  I see river bed!

Thanks for posting these Matt. And Thanks to Luc for rendering them. This is a big step forward for instilling hope, at lease for me.

Glad you liked my pretty water. LOL

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on March 23, 2008, 01:26:34 AM
These are looking really good. Can't wait to see more (and to get my hands on it  ;)).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on March 23, 2008, 02:28:07 AM
that looks very good to me ^^
good to see those pics ! Thank you !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on March 23, 2008, 04:01:28 AM
Thanks Matt! Better than mine thats for sure. :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: NWsenior07 on March 23, 2008, 05:12:28 AM
Wooow. I am looking forward to that.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on March 23, 2008, 07:08:29 AM
Yeah, those look good. Waiting to play with it.

 :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dhavalmistry on March 23, 2008, 12:53:47 PM
Matt those are looking really good...I am looking forward to transparency!

I would like to know couple of things tho..

1. render stats on both images
2. how you did those river side rock forms (if its not too much trouble)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 23, 2008, 01:09:10 PM
Thanks, Matt.  Can't wait to work with.  But, of course, I will.   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on March 23, 2008, 01:59:17 PM
Thanks for posting 2 previews on the water transparency, the refractions look good, though critically as I am I'm wondering if you can show an example where there's less transparency. The examples show almost 100% transparent water and except for the refractions look almost the same as the workaround done by others here.

I'd like to see an example (almost) similar to what JoshBaker posted. With less transparency and a transparency color.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on March 23, 2008, 02:25:26 PM
Interesting and promising results, thanks for showing the progress so far. l would be interested to know if the transparency in the beta/alpha will be depth dependent and colour corrective.
Thanks
Richard
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 23, 2008, 11:29:19 PM
Is there caustics?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: choronr on March 24, 2008, 02:52:12 AM
I would expect that if you can use image maps, you might also be able to use caustics. Also, I hope that sometime in the future, we would also be able to apply shore foam and white caps.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on March 24, 2008, 02:55:48 AM
There is no caustics function and, as we have stated before, it's unlikely to be included in the near future. They can however easily be faked with image maps as Choronr mentioned.

Depth attenuation and coloration will be supported with the water transparency system.

The rocks are a Luc creation, so you'd have to ask him how they were done.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on March 24, 2008, 07:28:15 AM
these look great matt ;D
i got this wee program that generates caustics if anyone wants it
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?hobghisnojr (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?hobghisnojr)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 24, 2008, 01:41:49 PM
these look great matt ;D
i got this wee program that generates caustics if anyone wants it
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?hobghisnojr (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?hobghisnojr)


Nice lead Lighting. I think I have tried this program in the past for use with TG9. But I did find that a photo of Caustics seemed to work better, at lease for me. And I'm sure as chornor said by using a Caustics Image Map placed under a Transparent Water Plane in TG Beta would also work. Just keep in mind that one usually only sees this effect with a high sun position and proper surface agitation. Attached is a caustics sample rendered in TG9. Not perfect but it does work.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: FrankB on March 25, 2008, 12:16:40 PM
I would expect that if you can use image maps, you might also be able to use caustics. Also, I hope that sometime in the future, we would also be able to apply shore foam and white caps.

I find that white caps are relatively easy to make. I usually just plug a power fractal to the water shader's input, that creates the white color (no displacement of course), and slide coverage to the left until only a few white spots remain every here and there.
Obviously you need the right feature, lead-in and smallest scale to look good.

Regard,
Frank
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on March 25, 2008, 01:44:22 PM
I would expect that if you can use image maps, you might also be able to use caustics. Also, I hope that sometime in the future, we would also be able to apply shore foam and white caps.

I find that white caps are relatively easy to make. I usually just plug a power fractal to the water shader's input, that creates the white color (no displacement of course), and slide coverage to the left until only a few white spots remain every here and there.
Obviously you need the right feature, lead-in and smallest scale to look good.

Regard,
Frank

One idea is to use a surface layer and set a minimum slope constraint so the white color only appears on slopes greater than a certain degree, like 30 for instance.  That would mimic how nature does it.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on March 25, 2008, 04:12:58 PM
Ohh! Transparent :P

It might just be me...But I think that water looks like a higher res + more detailed version of Half-Life 2's Water. (If you have'nt played it I'm sure you could get a screenshot and compare for yourself ;) )

Looks amazing though, I cant wait to get my hands on it :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 26, 2008, 12:38:55 PM
Another example of light absorption (also known as "Beer's law"). This is similar to "transparency colour" in Terragen v0.9:

[attach=1]

New! Volumetric shading of the participating medium. In v0.9 you could control the subsurface diffuse colour, but the lighting was only calculated at the surface of the water which would give an unnatural hard shadow and exaggerated shading on rough water. Now there is an option to sample the lighting at multiple points along the ray to give volumetric shadows under the water, although they are quite subtle in this example render:

[attach=2]

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 26, 2008, 12:46:25 PM
Ooooh.  It's your birthday.   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Astaroth on March 26, 2008, 12:52:27 PM
Happy Birthday :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 26, 2008, 12:57:43 PM
You're a few days too soon... ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on March 26, 2008, 01:14:14 PM
Ohh :)

Happy Birthday Matt!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on March 26, 2008, 01:34:41 PM
Now this is more like it, I can see great potential in these examples. Well done PS and the team. Were a step closer to a release then ? :)
Cant wait
Richard
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 26, 2008, 01:40:10 PM
 :D

Okay then.  It's my birthday.   :o

You're a few days too soon... ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on March 26, 2008, 01:53:06 PM
That looks fantastic Matt, great work on that so far.
The light absorption looks very convincing/realistic and the volumetric shading looks sweet, great effect! ;D
Much better and satisfying examples than the last one.

(I presume the blocky intersection of the water with the stone in the first image is due to the displacement of the stone itself?)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 26, 2008, 02:06:45 PM
(I presume the blocky intersection of the water with the stone in the first image is due to the displacement of the stone itself?)

That stone is displaced quite heavily and the microtriangles are stretched quite badly even in a waterless render. That's made worse because the underwater surfaces in these last two renders are at lower detail than the main detail level, but there will be an option to control that. I don't really see a blocky intersection with the water, but the stone is pretty blocky and the variation in colour of the fake stones on top doesn't help either. (The part that I think you might be looking at is all underwater and what you're seeing is fake stones colour variation.)

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 26, 2008, 02:08:59 PM
Well then happy birthday calico!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on March 26, 2008, 02:17:43 PM
Wow! These new renders are looking fantastic!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on March 26, 2008, 02:31:35 PM
Keep up the great work! I can hardly wait. :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on March 26, 2008, 02:33:00 PM
Ferkin gerkins!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on March 26, 2008, 02:46:10 PM
Those look great. Well done guys - cant wait to try the beta! :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on March 26, 2008, 03:33:24 PM
:D

Okay then.  It's my birthday.   :o

You're a few days too soon... ;)


Ugh, I'm confused..whos birthday is it:S lol
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on March 26, 2008, 03:34:41 PM
Matt, those look terrific!

So.... ? Quit holding out on us, man. We wanna play!

 ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 26, 2008, 03:38:41 PM
Thanks for sharing this. The transparency in the second one looks really good. How about render times which has always been a concern with transparent water.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on March 26, 2008, 03:46:14 PM
(I presume the blocky intersection of the water with the stone in the first image is due to the displacement of the stone itself?)

That stone is displaced quite heavily and the microtriangles are stretched quite badly even in a waterless render. That's made worse because the underwater surfaces in these last two renders are at lower detail than the main detail level, but there will be an option to control that. I don't really see a blocky intersection with the water, but the stone is pretty blocky and the variation in colour of the fake stones on top doesn't help either. (The part that I think you might be looking at is all underwater and what you're seeing is fake stones colour variation.)

Matt


Yes that's what I meant and thanks for the explanation. I was a bit unlucky in my choice of words for intersection ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on March 26, 2008, 05:00:28 PM
WOW those last two screen shots are amazing. This will totally transform scenes with water in them when we get this update.

Hopefully the alpha guys will get a smooth run and no ugly bugs will show up so us beta guys can have a play soon.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 26, 2008, 05:38:49 PM
Render times were about 3 hours (on one core) for each of the latest two renders, on computers which render Karsten's TG2 benchmark in about 5 or 6 minutes.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on March 26, 2008, 07:18:33 PM
Render times were about 3 hours (on one core) for each of the latest two renders, on computers which render Karsten's TG2 benchmark in about 5 or 6 minutes.

Matt

Thanks, that sounds promising.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on March 26, 2008, 11:36:03 PM
oooh ! the last 2 ones look very good !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 26, 2008, 11:49:38 PM
Happy Birthday Calico.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on March 27, 2008, 01:07:58 AM
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bursteggs

It's not really my birthday.  It just was like my birthday...or Matt's birthday...or something.   ::)

Happy Birthday Calico.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on March 27, 2008, 10:23:00 AM
No your wrong.  :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: monks on March 27, 2008, 11:38:35 AM
Ooooh, missed these renders. Awesome-o!

monks
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: DeathTwister on March 28, 2008, 01:08:51 AM
hay all, been busy so I was wondering what happened to the final release of TGD2 for us full owners on any dates yet set for the final release?  it all looks wonderful, but I was wondering when we can expect maybe the release that was going to be the first of the year?? nit toe a pin, just curious gents is all. I am also asking as I run the TGD2 Challenges on Renderosity and we have had every one leave the forums just about on the tgd2 forums challenges anyway, maybe 2-3 thats about it. as thy got disgusted as tear not hard core like us so I was also asked to check out what was happening with the release? Anyway so far I have seen at east 30 people turn back to Vue and other apps because of all this and hope they will come back with the full release, s tying to figure out a stratagy for when it does get released. They were also complaining bout not getting more then just trees int tgd2, and ave a hard time just getting a tree or grass into the program, so I dunna know what to say all, but I sure love this app even if others find it to hard to learn.

So this question is more for the staff then the Artists here. I keep hitting my update button in tgd2 and hope one day it say you have a new patch or update to download ROTFL.....Sorry to bug ya, and wouldn't if it weren't for the Contests we have each month.  Naw that not true, I want the full version update just like we all do "right the frack now" ROTFL lololololololol..........

DeathTwister  aka Maylock
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on March 28, 2008, 02:32:21 PM
Alpha builds with multi-threading and transparent/volumetric water are now being alpha tested. There are some new problems that need to be fixed before it can go to Beta, and it is difficult to predict how long that will take, but I will give you regular status updates from now until the Beta.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on March 28, 2008, 02:34:57 PM
There are some new problems that need to be fixed before it can go to Beta, and it is difficult to predict how long that will take...
Matt

Do I sense a new caution in predicting release dates?

 ;D

(Just teasing, Matt. I'm (im)patiently waiting.)

 ;)   :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: DeathTwister on March 28, 2008, 04:16:50 PM
Hay Mat,

   Oh thank you very much, updates to us are very nice, and helps us in more ways then you would expect /bows

can't ask for more at this point, many thanks from all of us.  So what's the Skivvy mate???? /winks

DT
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on March 28, 2008, 05:55:16 PM
I'm glad that all the waiting starts to pay off now.  :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on April 03, 2008, 08:29:33 AM
these look great matt ;D
i got this wee program that generates caustics if anyone wants it
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?hobghisnojr (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?hobghisnojr)


Nice lead Lighting. I think I have tried this program in the past for use with TG9. But I did find that a photo of Caustics seemed to work better, at lease for me. And I'm sure as chornor said by using a Caustics Image Map placed under a Transparent Water Plane in TG Beta would also work. Just keep in mind that one usually only sees this effect with a high sun position and proper surface agitation. Attached is a caustics sample rendered in TG9. Not perfect but it does work.


i always loved looking at your water renders!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: phil_DDIStudios on April 10, 2008, 01:21:32 AM
Whats the news on this? Still prefer a working BETA than one with 9 billion bugs (*ahem* *cough* DAZ)
Good work Planetside!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 10, 2008, 05:45:39 PM
Anybody want to take a guess at what I'm dying to ask?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on April 10, 2008, 05:53:24 PM
Anybody want to take a guess at what I'm dying to ask?

Don't have a clue.  ;D
But I do have a theory on when the Beta will be released. It will be when we get this thread up to about 35 pages. ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 10, 2008, 06:35:58 PM
Anybody want to take a guess at what I'm dying to ask?

Who's the stig? No? ah well, tried me best.
Can't wait for the beta though, I've got about 15 renders that keep crashing.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: forgeflow on April 10, 2008, 10:38:00 PM
I'm a bit concerned that the development of Terragen has stalled to a halt. The last update to the software dates back to September 7th, 2007. The promised release date has passed us by twice, and there is no final product, or any published update to the beta of the software, for 7 months. If this were free software I'd be a shit to complain about this, but this is something that I paid $200 for in the anticipation that release was imminent. The mailing list has gone completely silent, and I've been directed to this forum where everyone seems to be dancing around this question.

So? What's the plan? A schedule would be nice, or even an update of the beta would be nice.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 10, 2008, 11:07:08 PM
Well we have had plenty of news from many members of the dev team, and the pre-purchase option is a way to access the full features of Terragen 2 before it's released, it's no guarantee of a release date. Also, announcing release dates just puts more pressure on developers and we end up with a buggy release which people then proceed to complain about.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on April 11, 2008, 12:45:48 AM
I am The Stig! You should see my on Gran Turismo!

Good things come to those who etc...

I'm perfectly happy to wait, I'd rather the surprise of the ultimate announcement that: 'It's HERE! Today! There you go folks, sorry for the delay but, I'm sure you'll all agree, the extra development time was WELL worth it!' Than the waiting on the specified deadline date, that the very small team are forced to meet.
Less pressure on everyones part that way than to keep saying, in not so many words: 'Come on, PS! Get your finger out, where's this release?'

I'll bide my time, but then again, I haven't paid yet... I see the other side to it too for the pre-purchasers.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on April 11, 2008, 06:11:49 AM
I am The Stig! You should see my on Gran Turismo!

Good things come to those who etc...




HA the stig!!! you gota love top gear!!!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on April 11, 2008, 10:39:01 AM
His concerns are justified but in really all we can do is wait. At least mat gave us pics of transparency.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: DeathTwister on April 11, 2008, 12:35:42 PM
That may be OK for you and me to wait, but they are loosing people right and left every where else it seems.  All have gone and left in the contests, as they got tired of waiting, or so thy said.  We see is all we can do.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 11, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
Yes, it's long overdue, but frankly, it's no surprise. I think I predicted this over a year ago here in this forum - no disrespect to Planetside intended, but it was obvious that long ago to anyone with experience in delivering commercial software apps that there was a long, long way to go before this was a finished, polished product.

I suspect it's getting closer now, and seeing as I've already choked up the cash, I guess I'll continue to wait.

I must say, though, that juvenile cheerleading and denigrating comments to those less patient, when coming from people who HAVEN'T PAID THE MONEY, are pretty friggin' irritating. If you haven't paid the money, shut the hell up when those that have are expressing their unhappiness.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 11, 2008, 01:49:02 PM
My thoughts exactly Mr Harvey Birdman!

Ya know, all I keep hearing is "we don't want to put something out with Bugs"  Now seriously, do you really think there's "not" going to be some hidden unexpected bugs that crop up from time to time? Even after Matt thinks he's got it perfect?  No program is ever perfect and the only Perfect Person that ever existed was hung on a cross.

That said,  if we do encounter a few bugs after the Beta and the final release of TG2 comes out , so what?  We will cross that bridge when we come to it.  I say: Free The Beast!!  This is long overdue! 

Come on! Chant:  FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 11, 2008, 02:07:52 PM
Yes, it's long overdue, but frankly, it's no surprise. I think I predicted this over a year ago here in this forum - no disrespect to Planetside intended, but it was obvious that long ago to anyone with experience in delivering commercial software apps that there was a long, long way to go before this was a finished, polished product.

I suspect it's getting closer now, and seeing as I've already choked up the cash, I guess I'll continue to wait.

I must say, though, that juvenile cheerleading and denigrating comments to those less patient, when coming from people who HAVEN'T PAID THE MONEY, are pretty friggin' irritating. If you haven't paid the money, shut the hell up when those that have are expressing their unhappiness.

You paid for a pre-purchase release, the fact that planetside are allowing us to then get the updates to the full version without having to pay again is just a matter of courtesy, there's nothing stopping them charging us again for the fully released product, what we paid for was the unfinished product. Might want to think about that before placing too much weight on that argument. Anyhow let's move on.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 11, 2008, 02:11:43 PM
We paid for a pre-release version, the promise of regular updates, a promised final release date of 2.0 on Jan 1 2008, and updates to all versions up to 3.0.

What have you paid for?

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 11, 2008, 02:18:09 PM
Yes, it's long overdue, but frankly, it's no surprise. I think I predicted this over a year ago here in this forum - no disrespect to Planetside intended, but it was obvious that long ago to anyone with experience in delivering commercial software apps that there was a long, long way to go before this was a finished, polished product.

I suspect it's getting closer now, and seeing as I've already choked up the cash, I guess I'll continue to wait.

I must say, though, that juvenile cheerleading and denigrating comments to those less patient, when coming from people who HAVEN'T PAID THE MONEY, are pretty friggin' irritating. If you haven't paid the money, shut the hell up when those that have are expressing their unhappiness.

You paid for a pre-purchase release, the fact that planetside are allowing us to then get the updates to the full version without having to pay again is just a matter of courtesy, there's nothing stopping them charging us again for the fully released product, what we paid for was the unfinished product. Might want to think about that before placing too much weight on that argument. Anyhow let's move on.

Courtesy? Maybe? But I think "more" a need for Paying Guinea Pigs, funds to survive and to continue the development of TG. And I will move on when I get friggin' ready to move on. 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 11, 2008, 02:18:51 PM
I paid for this: http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tg2/prepurchase_tg2.shtml

I certainly didn't pay hundreds of dollars for a 18-month time limited buggy beta  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on April 11, 2008, 02:48:48 PM

You paid for a pre-purchase release, the fact that planetside are allowing us to then get the updates to the full version without having to pay again is just a matter of courtesy

Er no. I paid for a full copy of Terragen 2. By paying the pre-release price I'm able to download and use the beta versions until the full version is released, nothing to do with courtesy. Would you (or anyone) really pay hundreds of dollars for a beta copy of the software and then pay again for the same version but without the bugs when it is released?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on April 11, 2008, 02:56:56 PM
Were halfway through page 30 of this thread, only 4 1/2 pages to go! Keep it up guys! ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 11, 2008, 03:13:12 PM
 ;D

I was just WAITING for you to jump in with that....

 :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on April 11, 2008, 03:14:35 PM
Sorry it took so long.
 ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Marcos Silveira on April 11, 2008, 03:24:10 PM
FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 11, 2008, 04:08:47 PM
Er no. I paid for a full copy of Terragen 2. By paying the pre-release price I'm able to download and use the beta versions until the full version is released, nothing to do with courtesy. Would you (or anyone) really pay hundreds of dollars for a beta copy of the software and then pay again for the same version but without the bugs when it is released?


Considering that almost every other landscape software runs into the thousands I'd have to go with yes. They said on the website that you will recieve the updates up to but not including TG3. If they didn't say that, however, they would not be obligated to provide you with the updates. That's all I'm saying
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 11, 2008, 04:40:39 PM
As a paid Up (Deep + Animation) user I have this to say on this issue. What ever the said issue/s are that are affecting the release of the Beta and the fact that it is now the second week of April it makes one wonder how that will affect both the final gold release and subsequent versions of the product?

My feelings of late on the issue have lead down the road of adding the number of months already accumulated due to the issues (What ever they are) that are coursing the delay to the release of subsequent up dates and/ or the development lead time (that could be concurrent) and gold release of TG3.

Having looked at the current main page of the Planetside site (No offense to them any any way) one has a hard time discerning the direction intended for the product and also of things been made up as things go along: but most importantly it reminds one of the "Lights On" model of business, that is make just enough money to keep the lights on.

A prime concern is that of Interoperability and accessibility to allow flexibility of use in pipelines how for example is some thing created in TG2 meant to integrate with content created with Maya or any of the other software used in production and post production for that matter? How are to going to integrate TG2 backgrounds and elements from other software which is capable of other production deliverables such as crowd simulation or other type of work such as particles or other such thing?

You have issues with lighting match, shadows and other factors if away can not be found to import TG2 scenes into other software, if you can import animation, lighting and other data form package to package then surly there must be away for TG2 scenes to work in other software, unless it is envisioned that TG2 scenes be integrated via a lengthy and costly compositing process involving color grading and matching, shadow matching and so on I think that professional compositors have enough to do on feature production already without having to do things that should have be handled in the primary creation software in the first place.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The above aside, I don't mind waiting for major kinks to be worked out that is all fine and dandy but how long is long enough? I know its the same old swan song about Planetside been a small company and all that but paying customers (Who paid up front) are only prepared to be paid so much lip service, before wanting to know what is going on as time goes on that is when rumor, speculation and yes conspiracy theories start to emerge and for the software under development to be technologically outdated.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  ;D                                               
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 11, 2008, 04:50:53 PM
Well maybe this dispute could be quelled by those who want to see some action making some suggestions, my position is that the program works adequtely enough for a pre release and we should be thankful that we have that. Most companies in the same situation would keep you in the dark completely (ever heard of Alan Wake?). However I understand that many of us have paid for it and, while I stand with my position that we have the working product that we paid for, some feel that it is not. So if you've got any ideas then maybe it could help the dev team with a release strategy to take the pressure of a deadline off what I assume is a long list of burdens.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 11, 2008, 04:57:41 PM
Anybody want to take a guess at what I'm dying to ask?


Can't wait for the beta though, I've got about 15 renders that keep crashing.

So much for your working product.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 11, 2008, 05:08:39 PM
Well if you can find a single piece of software that's bug free I'll burn you in hell for doing the work of satan :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 11, 2008, 05:16:22 PM
Well maybe this dispute could be quelled by those who want to see some action making some suggestions, my position is that the program works adequtely enough for a pre release and we should be thankful that we have that. Most companies in the same situation would keep you in the dark completely (ever heard of Alan Wake?). However I understand that many of us have paid for it and, while I stand with my position that we have the working product that we paid for, some feel that it is not. So if you've got any ideas then maybe it could help the dev team with a release strategy to take the pressure of a deadline off what I assume is a long list of burdens.

I have plenty of ideas on these matters but most of these are for the most part for this company at the present time could be only pipe dreams, but they include outsourcing coding work (To say India) to offset primary work load on the core team among others.

Many of my ideas require two things that Planetside don't have right now Human Capital and Fiscal Resources so by these factors alone and the fact that they would more likely then not be thrown back at me with a "Thanks but no thanks..Don't call us We'll call you once We've tried every one else in Roller-Dex) stock response.

By the By my model for how not to handle software development is the space simulation game Battle Cruiser 3000 developed by Derick Smart and is regarded as been in the Top Five worst games ever made.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 11, 2008, 05:17:46 PM
Well if you can find a single piece of software that's bug free I'll burn you in hell for doing the work of satan :D


If that's suppose to be funny I'm not laughing. Apparently you didn't read what I said earlier in this thread?

Which was: Ya know, all I keep hearing is "we don't want to put something out with Bugs"  Now seriously, do you really think there's "not" going to be some hidden unexpected bugs that crop up from time to time? Even after Matt thinks he's got it perfect?  No program is ever perfect and the only Perfect Person that ever existed was hung on a cross.

That said,  if we do encounter a few bugs after the Beta and the final release of TG2 comes out , so what?  We will cross that bridge when we come to it.  I say: Free The Beast!!  This is long overdue! 

Come on! Chant:  FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............   ;D

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 11, 2008, 05:19:35 PM
Well if you can find a single piece of software that's bug free ...  :D

Apparently you're unfamiliar with my work.

 ;)   :D



FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............   ;D

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimHT on April 11, 2008, 05:28:45 PM
I'm not asking for a final product at this time. But I would have expected something more than 1 update since I prepurchased the software months ago. Not one update since version 1.9.04.1, which dates back to Sept. 7 2007. Nothing. That's quite a while. One would expect that something in active development, would kick out the occasional update.

What I am asking here is, "Are there signs of life?" I mean, other than renders which do nothing for my ability with the software...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 11, 2008, 05:30:51 PM
Well if you can find a single piece of software that's bug free ...  :D

Apparently you're unfamiliar with my work.

 ;)   :D

FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............   ;D

iGod? ;D btw what's with this "Free the beast!" stuff? ah screw it...
FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 11, 2008, 05:31:08 PM
 :D :D :D

@PG Releasing software that has bugs and releasing software you know has bugs are two different things. :)
Well.. at least they should be. I fear people who develop software in the real world will disagree  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 11, 2008, 05:36:38 PM
iGod? ;D


Hey, even gods makes mistakes. I'd point out my ex-wife as a prime example.

 :D   :D

But we digress.    :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 11, 2008, 05:40:39 PM
Indeed we do, we got through 2 pages in about an hour ;D Matt's gonna be in trouble if we get to 35 in the next 2 hours.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 11, 2008, 05:41:51 PM
Matt won't be, but Sonshine777 may be.    ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on April 11, 2008, 10:44:48 PM
Matt won't be, but Sonshine777 may be.    ;D

I just said it was a theory. I won't feel hurt if it doesn't pan out, theories are like that you know. :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Marcos Silveira on April 12, 2008, 11:47:05 AM
Com'on everybody:

FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!............... 8)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Fenring on April 12, 2008, 01:12:45 PM
Just give up this software is dead, if there was any development going on we paying customers would sure have received more than 1 update in 7 months and more news than the hillarious beta release announcement. Oh well I've learned my lesson to not buy any of planetsides products again, finished or "technology preview" aka pre-alpha state. Maybe they should have done like the World Machine creator and not take prepurchases since this is seriously harming the companys image.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 12, 2008, 02:01:21 PM
I suggest reading the threads you're posting in. ;)

edit: start here: http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg38194#msg38194
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 12, 2008, 02:06:29 PM
I don't think it's abandonware. I think they've made an error in underestimating the time required to finish a product, and it was compounded by the business model (advanced sales). Everyone is unhappy and frustrated, but I wouldn't go so far as to accuse them of running a scam.

Of course on the other hand, I can be ridiculously naive, but I don't feel I'm being taken for a ride in this case.

FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............FREE THE BEAST!...............
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Fenring on April 12, 2008, 02:31:20 PM
Sorry i dont count posting some render pics "news" since the failure to release the beta version 4 months ago and yes I do read the thread hence my frustration in the first place! Very depressing read.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: latego on April 12, 2008, 03:16:11 PM
Maybe they should have done like the World Machine creator and not take prepurchases since this is seriously harming the companys image.
Or better, like Cajomi (GeoControl daddy): as soon as the new product is usable (even if with known bugs and limitations), release it in, an open beta phase, to all previous version registered users. Every 4-6-8 weeks, a new beta is out, with improvements and bug fixes. Known bugs are noted in the release notes so users are aware of them.

GeoControl 2 is atrociously late (it should have been available for purchase in Sep. '07) but given the steady flux of betas, which show regular improvements, people do not bitch at all (if you don't believe me, go to http://www.cajomi.de/Forum/index.php (http://www.cajomi.de/Forum/index.php)).

Just to give you an idea, current GC2 build stil doesn't have anything availble in terms of projects (which are the multilayer extension of single layer terrain generation) and tiled builds but nobody complains: we are sure, because we can see it from build to build, that GC2 is steadily growing and feel safe that these missing features will eventually be available.

In the mean time, we can use it and, concurrently, we beta test it thoroughly. We have our cookies while Cajomi sells GC1 licences (which are required to run GC2 betas) and time to develop it. Everybody wins.

Bye

P.S.: I felt a chill going down my spine when I saw mentioned Battle Cruiser 3000... hope that TG developers are not near any coke vending machine (if you don't get the joke, just google for 'Derek Smart' and read about him and the above mentioned kind of appliance).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 12, 2008, 03:55:08 PM
Or better, like Cajomi (GeoControl daddy): as soon as the new product is usable (even if with known bugs and limitations), release it in, an open beta phase, to all previous version registered users. Every 4-6-8 weeks, a new beta is out, with improvements and bug fixes. Known bugs are noted in the release notes so users are aware of them.
That'd be cool, but as far as i know, the latest work on TG2 included fundamental changes to the render engine. They could have released more betas, but imagine the reaction of the community when the release comes with this known bug:
"- rendering doesn't work yet"
.. which would have been the case if they released a beta in the middle of development of the new engine.

Also, the bugs are what annoys me most in the current release of tg2, so I don't agree with people saying they don't mind the bugs.


Nonetheless, I'm starting to wonder what happens behind the scenes. The announcement in January mentioned a bug that has suddenly occurred. I find it hard to believe, that a bug could delay development so much. For now, I'll just assume that Planetside has good reasons for all this and that alpha-testing will end soon and we get to play with the beta, but I can't say I'm happy with the progress so far.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: GarryFre on April 12, 2008, 04:52:44 PM
Well, I don't like bugs, and I don't like expectation postponed but what is worse is this "No end in sight" of the waiting game.

They are far past the time they said they would release it with no, absolutely no info on a possible release era.

Far as I know it was supposed to been released Feb 15, If problems then a few weeks later. Well it's now coming up to eight weeks later.

Eight is not a few that's many weeks.

Obviously the user who said that Planetside has no sense of time has uttered the ultimate truth so obviously they can't make promises, so how bout a weekly update on what was fixed or added?

It would really spice up interest, keep us feeling like we are seeing prograss and getting something instead of sitting here shackled to our seats watching a dead animal for signs of life.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on April 12, 2008, 05:33:34 PM
Just give me GTA IV and I'll wait for Terragen 2. xD
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 12, 2008, 05:38:47 PM
Just give me GTA IV and I'll wait for Terragen 2. xD

April 29th buddy... April 29th...
just waiting for that too ^^'
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 12, 2008, 06:23:30 PM
We have seen several examples of advancement in development from the guys at planetside, Fenring, maybe you don't count renders as news but many of us do. How many other pieces of softwaare have you followed through development where you've been offered anything more than a few screenshots? Video games are a prime example, Alan Wake, Splinter Cell Conviction, Tom Clancy's EndWar. They've all been in development for years, all been postponed by months at a time, all with little more than a whiff of screenshots, most of them prerendered. Hell every evidence of Splinter Cell Conviction has been of one level. I'm a game developer myself, I've done more for London Mafia, my own game than we've seen in those screenshots, and they were released months ago, we've seen no development since, in that case we can have grounds to consider that production has halted, at least temporarily. Eventually it was announced that development had been paused. but we have seen evidence of Terragen 2's development, if that isn't good enough for you then maybe you made the mistake of choosing planetside, but that's your mistake, not theirs. All I'm saying is that there are actually very few companies that will keep prospective customers (seeing as fewer companies have pre purchase options) as "in the loop" as planetside has. Almost all software companies will give very small peeks at production to give customers a taste and then provide streams of announcements, screenshots, trailers, etc. mere months before the final release. I would suggest that the main reason that you are unhappy is because Terragen was announced when it was still pre-alpha, this is very unusual for a company to do but the development time has been pretty average, if not, above average.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 13, 2008, 12:06:24 AM
What would be nice (And this would be a radical departure for Planetside) is if Planetside a lesion from Mozilla and adopted the concept of nightly builds then people in the wider user base could help find the bug's sooner. Also what Planetside needs is a bug tracker on their thats akin to some thing like Bugzilla used to track bug's in Firefox.

Also given the opportunity I am sure that there are coders in the community who given the opportunity would be prepared to help even if that meant signing some kind of NDA or other kind of confidentiality agreement if proprietary code and intellectual property are the issues.

The other option (likely to be flatly rejected) is to make Terragen Partly Open Source with just enough exposure to make community help useful and get whatever bugs and stability issues that remain sorted out under the right license you could develop faster and have new versions out sooner, just a thought any way that way Terragen is still a commercial product and Planetside still gets its revenue stream, it just takes less time to get to market.

Things could go some thing like this, new features (and versions) get developed in house at Planetside and are passed to the closed Alpha Test Group to find the major issues as per now, once that is done a build could then be released for the community to look at and final bugs and other issues sorted out, before testing freeze and public release.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  ;D
                       
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 12:14:33 AM
I like your first idea, also to go with that, maybe planetside could release builds as "at your own risk". That is then a disclaimer for them so they have made us aware that they aren't guaranteed releases but everyone who wants an update is happy.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on April 13, 2008, 01:51:51 AM
Check out Luc Bianco's awesome new picture. http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD841.jpg  :o
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bobbystahr on April 13, 2008, 04:19:44 AM
Check out Luc Bianco's awesome new picture. http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD841.jpg  :o

Very nice...enticing...just wanna take off my shoes and walk in it.. ...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 10:38:53 AM
Hmm, there does appear to be a bit of an issue with the reflectivity of the water when transparency is enabled, might just be me though.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mandrake on April 13, 2008, 11:16:24 AM
Check out Luc Bianco's awesome new picture. http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD841.jpg  :o

That' a nice render. That make 3 I believe, alpha renders I've seen. The two Matt showed us and this one.
Are there any more out there?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 13, 2008, 11:19:32 AM
Hmm, there does appear to be a bit of an issue with the reflectivity of the water when transparency is enabled, might just be me though.

What i see is compression problems... but i am not a specialist perhaps you're right
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on April 13, 2008, 11:21:48 AM
Check out Luc Bianco's awesome new picture. http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD841.jpg  :o

That' a nice render. That make 3 I believe, alpha renders I've seen. The two Matt showed us and this one.
Are there any more out there?

Mandrake, Frank has also posted a nice image.

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3767.0

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mandrake on April 13, 2008, 11:40:03 AM
Thanks reck, that shows promise also, hell if I can see those underwater bubbles though.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mandrake on April 13, 2008, 11:42:31 AM


What i see is compression problems... but i am not a specialist perhaps you're right
[/quote]

Hey seth, congrats on making the image of the week, on the Terragen site!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 13, 2008, 11:43:35 AM
hehe lol !
thank you dude:)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 12:03:02 PM
Thanks reck, that shows promise also, hell if I can see those underwater bubbles though.

They can be quite hard to spot at first, took me about 20 minutes. ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 13, 2008, 12:33:24 PM
I think that the image is fine you get water like this in real life, the graininess in the water in the image reminds me of sediment in the water or tannins form organic matter from some thing like leaves or other such matter.

Matt said that the Water now responds to Beer's Law known also as the Beer Lambert Law the Wikipedia article on is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer-Lambert_law: so it is my read that the absorption and any related reflections would obey that law: also the shadow that PG point out seems correct to me, remembering that light fall off is proportional over distance; example look at sun light coming through a window look at the celling directly above the window you will notice that is the brightest spot, as you look toward the far wall you will see that things look darker.  ;D

Before any one asks I have spent a good portion of my life living in coastal areas and have seen places similar to the one in Luc's image.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel 

     
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 01:21:21 PM
You know, I think I'm with Fenring on this. I am not the least impressed with renders someone else has created with a version I don't have access to.

Is this supposed to placate me? If so, it's a poorly considered move. Waving this crap under my nose when the product I've paid money for is months overdue does NOT engender warm fuzzies. It has quite the opposite effect.


If Planetside wants to show off the new version, release the bastard so I can actually use it. This 'oh, look what Luc did with it!' approach is pure bullshit.

 >:(   >:(     >:(     >:(     >:(    >:(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 13, 2008, 01:36:56 PM
Check out Luc Bianco's awesome new picture. http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD841.jpg  :o
  Why are you posting this and not Luc? And why post it here in this thread?  Are you on Planetside's payroll?  WTF? 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 01:37:51 PM
Would you guys be up for the "At your own risk" release then?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 01:39:17 PM
Would you guys be up for the "At your own risk" release then?

Enter the syncophant...

What, like every other release? How long have you been around this circus, anyway?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 01:43:21 PM
yeah, right anyway. I'm only trying to come up with some solution to your greivances. All I'm saying is that you seem to want some kind of update, clearly the dev team don't feel that it's in a position to release anything as a "stable" build so maybe you'd like to be given an "unstable" one.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 01:47:41 PM
Quit behaving like Planetside is a group of poor, hapless misunderstood little boys that need your guidance, protection and support.

They don't need your 'help finding solutions'. They knew precisely what they were doing when they chose their business model. They've been collecting money and issuing bullshit promises and ETA's for years.

Your syncophantic fawning looks pretty ignorant to those of us that have seen this act play out over and over again for years.

The fact is that they have made promises they failed to keep, and now they hide behind the likes of you.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 13, 2008, 01:51:17 PM
Hmm, there does appear to be a bit of an issue with the reflectivity of the water when transparency is enabled, might just be me though.
I think you are right with the shadow issue, specular reflections appear, even if they shouldn't. The graininess is caused by the lack of AA TG2 applies to specular reflections.
The scattering-problem you noticed is not unnormal. (Why shouldn't water that's further away also reflect the sun too? It's lot less likely of course)

I think it would have been wise by Planetside to actually announce the new imagery.
Also full ack to Harvey! Please don't let us wait another year.

@PG The mistake has already been made. (ultimately by announcing an optimistic release date) It's too late to find a solution. That is why contradictory requests can't be avoided anymore.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 02:01:35 PM
I'm not here to argue Harvey, I like Terragen and I want it to be a success, you're clearly not happy with how the release progression has been handle and I gave an idea of how it could be resolved. Let's face it, if planetside hasn't released it yet that's because it's not ready. The only way you'd get any update in the near future is to have an unstable build.

The scattering-problem you noticed is not unnormal. (Why shouldn't water that's further away also reflect the sun too? It's lot less likely of course)

Yeah true, but they just seem to be quite solitary specks.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 13, 2008, 03:17:15 PM
A question just came to my mind.
Right now I pay $200 and I only get access to beta versions. How much extra did the alpha testers have to pay to get access to alpha versions?

Not trying to start a revolution here but if it works the way I think it works (alpha testers don't pay anything or at least not more than we do) then I wonder how that makes any sense?
If I as a pre-purchaser paid the same or even a higher price than the alpha testers did... then why do they get the latest version while I don't?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 03:21:02 PM
They get the latest version because they work for Planetside, they're called alpha testers because it's their job to stress test the program to root out bugs, crashes, etc. so that they can be fixed by the development team.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 13, 2008, 03:23:14 PM
I followed the "Circus" for a good while on the Yahoo Group with every one getting told in so many words to shut the hell up and don't even bother talking about when the Tech Preview was coming out (December of that year as happens) so I won't go over what happens when deadlines get made then passed, those that know the drill know what I mean.

I have to say that it would be nice for us fully paid up users to receive a little more information via the back channel so that we know what is going on, one of the rules about business is don't alienate your customers by limiting the information flow its not good for business nor the image or reputation of the company.

I am not a Fan-Boy of this company and you (who ever you maybe) are free to search my user name on this site and you will see that; I ask questions that need answers weather or not they are my business to ask if they are not like many here I'm pretty much tiered of been tiered.

Again, as previously stated and this really is the last time if there is a major set of problems with say Multi-Threading or similar that cause big time problems   but saying some thing is only going to take a few weeks and then three months latter no word thatís where the bad feeling starts, it gets to the point where what is fun  no longer is after a point, I know that Planetside is a business and all but it must coarse all kinds of problems if you have to do all the day to day business stuff and program (With help) some thing of magnitude of TG2?

In the end then, what is the nub of the issue here? The Answer is Software by its self is a lifeless thing and to honest isn't life to short to be getting upset over some thing that's inert, there must be some kind of emotional bond that is formed with the object to be missed when the stimulus is absent, some form of ownership implied stated or not that provokes heated argument when debated, this dose not to the intellectual mind seem either rational or logical.

There are two groups of argument: the first group of argument is what we shall call the Non-Rational Type, within this group lies the kind of self destructive argument that divides families for generations and discord among nations leading to negative outcomes such as war, argument of the Non-Rational Type impends progress upon which knowledge is based and which allows man kind to advance, with this group there is the small be still real risk of social stagnation and social regression.   

The second group of argument is what we shall call the Rational Type: arguments belonging to this group offer the grounds upon civilized debate is founded, with debate comes the shearing of idea's and allow both individual and the social group as cohesive whole to move forward.

I continue to wait for what lies ahead and will channel a calm place and move on.  ;D

Peace to all here.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

                 
                                   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 13, 2008, 03:25:22 PM
A question just came to my mind.
Right now I pay $200 and I only get access to beta versions. How much extra did the alpha testers have to pay to get access to alpha versions?

Not trying to start a revolution here but if it works the way I think it works (alpha testers don't pay anything or at least not more than we do) then I wonder how that makes any sense?
If I as a pre-purchaser paid the same or even a higher price than the alpha testers did... then why do they get the latest version while I don't?

Good Question! My guess is they didn't pay anything. Why would they have to pay for helping planetside with their testing?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 13, 2008, 03:32:17 PM
Cyber-Angel, I really wish you would check your spelling because it messes up the flow when trying to read your posts. Thanks in advance,

And Regards to you
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 03:32:56 PM
That's a very Kantian outlook Cyber, totally agree with you too, especially about giving paying customers exculsive info. Maybe by a mailing list.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 03:38:22 PM
Don't you think that sort of thing has been suggested (and ignored) before? Do you really think that Planetside needs your help to come up with that? They know how to communicate with their customers just as well as you or I. They don't communicate because they don't feel the need, not because they don't know how.

As DT commented here no long ago, this is doing irreperable damage to their business, or at least to that portion of their business represented here.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 03:48:41 PM
Well they are communicating, maybe not as much, or in the way that would be best, but they are doing it. The way you're portraying it is that Planetside are a bunch of lazy "ivory tower" programmers who feel that they have more important things to do than tell us anything.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 13, 2008, 03:53:17 PM
That's a very Kantian outlook Cyber, totally agree with you too, especially about giving paying customers exculsive info. Maybe by a mailing list.

Thanks,

Kant is the Philosopher I read most widely so there may be some of him in what I write.

@ Harvey Birdman

I am willing to listen to what you have to say on the issue(s) so that theres no need to go over the same ground again I'd rather not fence with you nor any one else here, would you agree even if not fully that going over the same ground time and again is a tiresome enterprise, that only leads to us tripping over one another?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel       
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 13, 2008, 03:58:10 PM
That's a very Kantian outlook Cyber, totally agree with you too, especially about giving paying customers exculsive info. Maybe by a mailing list.

LOL Mailing list? You got to be kidding. Try sending planetside support a email and see how fast they reply. I have been told by a staff Member who took 3 days to reply to one of my emails that they gave me a prompt reply. Where I'm from 3 days is far from prompt. 

Planetside may be genius at the programing level but are at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to customer service.  Planetside is developing a landscape program to make money but the customers aren't as important?  To me there's something wrong with this picture, but that's the way they make me feel. Sure would be nice if they could find a happy medium then maybe people wouldn't be getting so frustrated waiting. Not trying to be mean, just telling it like I see it.


Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 04:05:30 PM
Yeah, I agree that Planetside could most definately do better to improve customer relations, maybe hire someone to purely handle PR. Sorry if it seems like I'm spewing out theories left, right and centre, I do that a lot ;D
Still they can't be worse than Microsoft or DSG. I tried to re-activate my preinstalled copy of XP media centre when I changed the mobo and CPU and they wouldn't do it because they said that I had XP pro. ::)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 04:05:44 PM
The way you're portraying it is that Planetside are a bunch of lazy "ivory tower" programmers who feel that they have more important things to do than tell us anything.

I didn't say lazy, but absolutely; based on what I've seen, communicating to the customer base represented in this forum is an extremely low priority.

<edit>
An equally low priority seems to be the release of updates to paid customers. Frankly, (and this isn't going to make me any friends,) I don't think they know how to finish a product; how to draw the line in the sand, say 'no more features, we implement this feature set on this schedule'. Based on the track record I've seen, there is ALWAYS one more feature to add, one more bug to correct.
</edit>

@C-A

Frankly, I haven't read all 34 pages of this thread and I don't intend to. You are to be commended for your diligence if you have. If you find I'm repeating what someone else has said, I'd say that points out it's a common sentiment.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 13, 2008, 04:18:27 PM
3 days for an E-Mail Response, I've heard worse, there is an ISP here in Australia called DODO there are people who've sent them E-Mails and waited an entire six months before they heard any thing in other cases people have never had a response. There are people out there that are snowed under with Email, hundreds a day so much so that the World Health Organization in a report published earlier this year stated that it classified Internet and Email addiction as classes of Mental illness.

I don't have the statistics to hand (nor know of any published on the subject) but surely having your in box flooded and been unable to effectively answer the already  accumulated content thereof must be a factor of workplace related illness (Real or Imagined) and stress, leading to employee down time, productivity loss and the like.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel         
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 13, 2008, 04:20:35 PM
Yeah, I agree that Planetside could most definately do better to improve customer relations, maybe hire someone to purely handle PR. Sorry if it seems like I'm spewing out theories left, right and centre, I do that a lot ;D
Still they can't be worse than Microsoft or DSG. I tried to re-activate my preinstalled copy of XP media centre when I changed the mobo and CPU and they wouldn't do it because they said that I had XP pro. ::)

They have a PR Man, it's Oshyan from what I understand.  If you read this thead about someone wondering where the license key is. http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3629.msg37502#msg37502  (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3629.msg37502#msg37502) You might see that customer service is not at the top of the list. 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 04:26:22 PM
haha. yeah not a great choice of words there is it? ;D He seems to do that a lot. Did it with the beta release date announcement too. Oh yeah, I though of another company that has MUCH worse Customer service than Planetside. Illusion Softworks, now 2K Czech, we've sent hundreds of emails, letters, made telephone calls, even had people go up to the offices and never even had a "sod off, we don't care" from them, in 5 YEARS!!! Now that's poor PR work.  :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 13, 2008, 05:46:34 PM
Well, hey...I'm jumping into the hot water.  What do I know?   ;D

I understand and agree with the sentiment that things are slow...on this particular track.  I have a question, though.  Is there another system out there that can do what Planetside is promising?  I think the keyword is promising.  If they come through with their word on the Beta, all other features (including all of our insistent requests to add more features) be damned, then we could close this thread permanently.  If not, then let's look for another software package that will do what we want. 

Otherwise, just be mad as hell.  It's great for blood pressure - NOT.  Jumping out.  It feels sort of HOT IN HERE!   :o
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: child@play on April 13, 2008, 05:52:17 PM
let them do whatever they are doing, gives me some time to purchase before prices go up ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 05:55:18 PM
lol, well I don't think there's anything out there that can beat Terragen. If they'd just give us transparency. ;D in both senses of the word.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 05:56:29 PM
So close..... so close....

 ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 05:59:34 PM
Terragen 2 Beta release Day. Woo, lol.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 13, 2008, 06:00:46 PM
:P  What a frikkin' relief...whoooo.

 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 06:02:10 PM
YAAAY!!

 ;D   :D

But wait....  ???   :-\     :P    >:(

All right, where's Sonshine777.

 >:(

 ;)   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on April 13, 2008, 06:56:30 PM
I don't understand why they don't do incremental updates?  It just doesn't make sense.  I say they should call TG2 "finished" and then do incremental updates.  Most other software does this.  No software is perfect.  There will be crashes and there will be bugs.  There has to be something else going on "business wise" behind the scenes.

The frustrating thing is, most of the bugs plaguing us now are already resolved, yet we have to wait and suffer because they want things to be just right for this 'huge' release. 

TG2 is phenomenal, but I've paid my money with the expectation I'd have transparency, multicore support, and possibly SSS within a few months.  Its been well over a year and its barely changed.

C'mon Planetside, release the current version to the paying customers "as is", despite the bugs.  We'll manage.  And we know they will be resolved over time...and in the mean time we still get to use the newer features.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on April 13, 2008, 07:03:18 PM
Just a completely wild stab in the dark but I suspect that the problems arise from the multi core implementation of the displacement/render engine. With such finely tuned calculations being run of different cores there is the opportunity for discrepancies to arise in the floating point calculations. I can see how this could be very difficult to overcome in a reliable and repeatable way. just my penny worth but hell welease woderwick I mean terragen
Richard
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on April 13, 2008, 07:58:45 PM
Check out Luc Bianco's awesome new picture. http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD841.jpg  :o
  Why are you posting this and not Luc? And why post it here in this thread?  Are you on Planetside's payroll?  WTF? 

Wow, wow, calm down. First of all, I didn't post the image, I just posted a link to the image that Luc already uploaded on his site (and if he, for some reason, does not want me to do that then I will gladly take the comment down). I posted the link to the image because 1) images of transparency have been posted here before and 2) people were talking about updates so I thought they may be interested in seeing it. No need to get excited, itís not like Iím trying to take credit for it. :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 08:10:22 PM
Plus Luc's awesome ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on April 13, 2008, 08:16:35 PM
Check out Luc Bianco's awesome new picture. http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD841.jpg  :o
  Why are you posting this and not Luc? And why post it here in this thread?  Are you on Planetside's payroll?  WTF? 

Wow, wow, calm down. First of all, I didn't post the image, I just posted a link to the image that Luc already uploaded on his site (and if he, for some reason, does not want me to do that then I will gladly take the comment down). I posted the link to the image because 1) images of transparency have been posted here before and 2) people were talking about updates so I thought they may be interested in seeing it. No need to get excited, itís not like Iím trying to take credit for it. :)

nvseal, thanks for posting that link, i'd never have known about that image if you hadn't. It helps pass the time seeing these water transparency images while we wait for the next release.

Let us know if you find any more :)

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 13, 2008, 08:33:24 PM
Check out Luc Bianco's awesome new picture. http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD841.jpg  :o
  Why are you posting this and not Luc? And why post it here in this thread?  Are you on Planetside's payroll?  WTF? 

Wow, wow, calm down. First of all, I didn't post the image, I just posted a link to the image that Luc already uploaded on his site (and if he, for some reason, does not want me to do that then I will gladly take the comment down). I posted the link to the image because 1) images of transparency have been posted here before and 2) people were talking about updates so I thought they may be interested in seeing it. No need to get excited, itís not like Iím trying to take credit for it. :)

nvseal, thanks for posting that link, i'd never have known about that image if you hadn't. It helps pass the time seeing these water transparency images while we wait for the next release.

Let us know if you find any more :)



I think I'm going to Puke!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 08:46:02 PM
haha, but then Luc is really good.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 13, 2008, 09:09:12 PM
haha, but then Luc is really good.

Yes I agree he is very good. As he should be seeing that he has been working with TG2 since 2004. But ask him to share a technique or how he did something.

And posting these pics done with a version we don't yet have is Like Harvey said:
You know, I think I'm with Fenring on this. I am not the least impressed with renders someone else has created with a version I don't have access to.

Is this supposed to placate me? If so, it's a poorly considered move. Waving this crap under my nose when the product I've paid money for is months overdue does NOT engender warm fuzzies. It has quite the opposite effect.


If Planetside wants to show off the new version, release the bastard so I can actually use it. This 'oh, look what Luc did with it!' approach is pure bullshit.

 >:(   >:(     >:(     >:(     >:(    >:(

BullShit! Hence, why it makes me feel like puking.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on April 13, 2008, 09:16:51 PM
If I were Planetside I'd give you all your money back and show you the door - bunch of miserable bastards the lot of you...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 13, 2008, 09:21:42 PM
If I were Planetside I'd give you all your money back and show you the door - bunch of miserable bastards the lot of you...

LOL   :D ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 09:23:21 PM
Careful moose. ;D

@ josh: yeah I really wish Luc'd be a bit more generous, but that's artistic pride for you.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Will on April 13, 2008, 09:34:53 PM
I'm not miserable...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 10:13:06 PM
I'm not miserable...

We can fix that.   :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on April 13, 2008, 10:33:20 PM
Quote
If I were Planetside I'd give you all your money back and show you the door - bunch of miserable bastards the lot of you...

 :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 13, 2008, 10:54:17 PM
Sheepskins.  What happened while I was gone?  Has everyone had a rough weekend?

This is what we get for being off-the-payroll Alpha testers.  Anyone ever want to do it again?  <evil laugh inserted here>
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 11:07:56 PM
Sheepskins.  What happened while I was gone.  Has everyone had a rough weekend?

This is what we get for being off-the-payroll Alpha testers.  Anyone ever want to do it again?  <evil laugh inserted here>

Sheepskins? :D. No the worrying thing is that it started with a one-time poster. But all with good intentions and much cheaper than a therapist. ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: jo on April 13, 2008, 11:12:32 PM
Hi everyone,

This isn't really my place, I'm just a developer, but I thought I'd say something. I do absolutely understand why people are getting frustrated - I haven't exactly enjoyed the last few months myself, but at last things are starting to come together now.

First off let me say something about progress. We're making fairly good progress at the moment. A lot of multithreading bugs were squashed over the last week or so, and things got a lot better. There are still some issues though and they need to be resolved. Matt was a bit hesitant to mention this here because we don't know how long until the remaining threading bugs can be cleaned up. They can be very difficult to track down, and what seems straightforward can be anything but. Adding multithreading is a big deal, and especially retrofitting it to a large and complex codebase is not the easiest thing in the world. Matt has been doing that work by himself, unfortunately it was impractical for us both to work on it, and I'm actually quite impressed that he's been able to do it as quickly as he has, believe it or not...

Obviously the delay has been far greater than expected, but multithreading along with the improvements to the renderer which allowed transparency ( amongst other things ) have taken a long time to get sorted. How long? Let me say this - we didn't even release anything to alpha testers for over 3 months. I myself didn't get any of the multithreaded code to work with until relatively recently. You can perhaps see why we haven't done incremental updates in this situation - we simply couldn't. The changes TG2 was undergoing were too fundamental.

Why don't we make alpha releases to just everybody? Because we need to keep feedback, problem reports and followups to a manageable level. It may not seem this way to you, but the public releases we make have been tested so that all bugs within reason have been resolved. When I say "within reason" I mean not part of some fundamental system which we haven't addressed for that release. It's not uncommon for us to need to put out a followup alpha release quickly when we find something wrong we haven't picked up. Alpha tests are basically the first time TG2 gets tried out "off our computers". We can't feasibly test everything just by ourselves, although we try and cover things as well as we can. There has been more than once that something has worked perfectly on my machines but not on one of the alpha testers. Having alpha testers allows some bugs to be shaken out quickly, with any luck with reproducible circumstances we can recreate ourselves for debugging purposes. For this to be effective we need to keep it to a relatively small group. Besides, if we released them to the public at large there would be people who wouldn't understand that the releases were alpha quality.

Believe you me, we're not holding back alpha releases which we feel could be satisfactorily used by a wider audience!

The point about allowing alpha testers to release images is to show that progress is being made. We can't release those versions which are being used to create the images, because right now for every nice looking image there's several more which haven't been able to be rendered to completion due to problems we're in the process of fixing. It isn't so much we want things to be perfect, right now we just want them to work the way they're supposed to.

The one positive in all this is that the multithreading stuff is looking pretty good. Render times are reduced considerably, dramatically in some cases. I used to hear how long a render took for some nice new image and shudder, now I sometimes find myself thinking "Hey, that's not too bad" :-). Don't get me wrong, it can still take a long time to render an image, but at least it's a long time rather than an eternity. Having the previews threaded is great too. We made a hard decision that we didn't want to release a beta without multithreading, but it has of course taken much longer than expected. In any case, the work needed to be done and TG2 is vastly improved because of it.

One big benefit of it for me is that for the first time TG2 is much more interactive while its rendering. I think this will make a bigger difference to people than you might expect. You may have seen me mention this before, but for TG Mac v0.9 I made the renderer run in a different thread to the UI and it was like night and day. Before that it was hard to use other applications while TG was rendering, it took an age to switch away from TG and if you accidentally switched to it when using other apps you had to wait again. Often TG would take a long time to come to the front when you wanted to check on progress. It really made doing other stuff while TG was rendering a pain in the neck. I was pretty annoyed when we found ourselves in the exact same situation with TG2. Right now however, things are looking much better. With any luck the alpha testers won't find anything wrong with this and we'll be able to keep it that way :-).

Anyway, like I said, it's no longer my place to do this kind of thing, and perhaps Matt will tell me off, but I hope that this has explained something to you. I'm not surprised that people are dissatisfied with how things are going, we don't work in a vacuum. All I can say is that with regard to the big changes we've had to make for the threading etc. there's finally light at the end of the tunnel, take that how you will.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 13, 2008, 11:17:11 PM
... No the worrying thing is that it started with a one-time poster...

The natives are restless and the discontent is close to the surface.


Jo - Good of you to take the time. I appreciate the fact you feel some responsibility to the user base and that it manifests itself so. Doesn't make me any happier about the scheduling issues but it's nice, nonetheless.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 13, 2008, 11:28:33 PM
Nice to here from the man in the action Jo. Sounds like you are making some significant progress, optimising code to split between processing cores can be a pain in the kaiser, not to mention different word lengths of different processors and operating systems. I sincerely hope that Matt isn't too hard on you, especially seeing as we have a programmer giving us news rather than the people who are supposed to be doing it. You really show your commitment to the project and the punters ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on April 14, 2008, 12:38:21 AM
Many thanks Jo, you cleared up some things I was wondering about.  Sorry its taking so long, but hopefully it will be available as a beta soon.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 14, 2008, 12:40:51 AM
Only now I realize that information coming from Planetside doesn't have any value (too me). Considering past current delays and their corresponding announcements, "good progress" basically translates to "Release will be next week.. or month, or in 2009, maybe."

There's still nothing said about that ominous "complication" that turned an allegedly imminent release into the month-long delay we're currently experiencing. Maybe I don't even want to know..

Why don't we make alpha releases to just everybody? Because we need to keep feedback, problem reports and followups to a manageable level. [...] Besides, if we released them to the public at large there would be people who wouldn't understand that the releases were alpha quality.
I disagree. Put the download link on a simple html page somewhere well hidden where no one will ever find it (like the tgd-base) except those who got the link from this forum. A page that has a huge sign "Nightly Builds! No Support! Feedback will be ignored!"
Closed Alpha makes sense cause you still want to sell the software later on - but the pre-purchasers have already paid.

Believe you me, we're not holding back alpha releases which we feel could be satisfactorily used by a wider audience!
So Planetsides opinion is that "not usable by anyone at all" is better than "useable, but with bugs"? I don't see how this makes any sense. I also doubt whether the "wide audience" agrees with that strategy.

Anyway, Thank you for informing us :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 14, 2008, 12:51:23 AM
I'm afraid I share still nikita's skepticism. I don't expect we will see any meaningful accomodation of our criticisms/concerns.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: SilverCity on April 14, 2008, 02:30:01 AM
I'm new to this forum and haven't read every post on this thread, so this may have been answered already. When Terragen 2 is ready for final release, will you make an announcement when pre-purchase prices will end?

Is there any indication of what the final price will be? Under $500.00? $500.00 - $700.00? $800.00 - $1,000.00? Similar applications run the spectrum from Bryce ($99.00) to Vue xStream ($900.00). 

Thanks.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sonshine777 on April 14, 2008, 05:32:24 AM
Well I go away to work on a little video project and come back to almost 37 pages. ;D
I never said I was a prophet, I just had a theory. And a very weak one it appears. :'(
Sorry Harvey I tried.

Thanks for the explanation/update Jo.

Well I guess that's my two cents worth. :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 14, 2008, 10:53:41 AM
Personally I am glad Jo got us up to date with the latest compliactions...

We tend to forget that the whole TG2 business is run by only 3 people!
Big companies bringing out new applications and software often have a whole army of programmers and pre-alpha testers behind the scenes.
These are just a few.

I think it's a vast achievement they made so far allready, and the lot of us wouldn't do it much faster (I couldn't do it at all  ;)).
We need to remind ourselves that, and have only respect for the work they do.
They don't like the delay any more than we do.


But that's just my oppinion...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 14, 2008, 12:40:45 PM
I've been coming from Mohawk20's persuasion from day one.  I've worked on a few jobs that meant tight timelines with complaining end-users who ask for more and more and then complain when you give it to them late (because they added more requirements in the meantime) and complain when it doesn't work the way they never told you they wanted it to work.  It's not very satisfying and, in fact, makes it easy to believe these end-users should just try it without you.

We all have theories about how it should go.  But, if these are fundamental changes to the TG2 renderer (and this what has happened) then I'd rather play with the version I have until the fundamental pieces are together.  In other words, quit thinking that this new version is just an improved version of what you have already.  Instead, think of it as a completely and fundamentally new version.  So fundamental, in fact, that it has caused quite a delay.  The next update is probably an entirely new code base.

As far as being fearful about how Planetside will never come through, look for another software that can do what this one will do and then let me know about it.  If you don't find one, then let's keep asking for updates until we get the golden beauty in our hands.    ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 14, 2008, 01:19:11 PM
We all have theories about how it should go.  But, if these are fundamental changes to the TG2 renderer (and this what has happened) then I'd rather play with the version I have until the fundamental pieces are together.  In other words, quit thinking that this new version is just an improved version of what you have already.  Instead, think of it as a completely and fundamentally new version.  So fundamental, in fact, that it has caused quite a delay.  The next update is probably an entirely new code base.

I don't think so: http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg34609#msg34609
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 14, 2008, 03:49:50 PM
@nikita - The renderer was rebuilt.  That's the code base...the renderer.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Arandil on April 14, 2008, 04:57:05 PM
*gets popcorn*  *munch* .. Oh wait, I've seen this film before ...  :-X
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 14, 2008, 06:48:26 PM
Thing we must all remember is that Jo is a programmer, not a director or studio manager, he's filling us in best he can. Ultimately the decision for releases is down to Matt, and nikita, what Jo's post says is that there are many VERY fundamental things that have been done to the code behind TG2. Things like multithreading have a gargantuan knock on effect with other areas of the program. I don't personally know how TG2 has been built but if it is object oriented (as I would expect these days) then every class, struct, function and variable needs to be handle effectively to be used by two cores. That's a massive thing to do and the slightest miscalculation can make one, very very well hidden, variable go wrong, the programmers then need to find that variable and fix it. This is a huge job for 3 people, as calico said, to do.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 14, 2008, 08:15:06 PM
Ultimately the decision for releases is down to Matt, and nikita
For a moment, I was confused  ;D
nikita, what Jo's post says is that there are many VERY fundamental things that have been done to the code behind TG2.
I know it's a huge task, I said that in this thread multiple times myself. The thing that puzzles me is that Matt mentioned he had every reason to believe the beta could be released on time (jan 4). So the fundamental stuff must have already been finished in january.
 
I don't personally know how TG2 has been built but if it is object oriented (as I would expect these days) then every class, struct, function and variable needs to be handle effectively to be used by two cores.
I don't know if it's really that difficult. Maybe I'm just plain wrong here but ray tracing seems like a technique that can easily be split up into two or more threads and I think the same is true for the sampling stuff.
But if the additional time spent on this stuff results in even faster rendering, then that's fine with me of course ;)

PS: I'm just switching from Java to C++ and imperative programming with relatively few classes.. by now I know why oop is the better approach or would have been if i had used it  ::)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neon22 on April 15, 2008, 10:51:39 AM
Hmmm.

Well its extremely likely this is going to sound wanky but...
I've been doing CG professionally since 1986 and TG2 is the ONLY program I have seen that looks like its going to be photorealistic in this domain.

And personally - speaking only for myself - I love it - and I'd wait another 5 years for it actually.
Its as simple to me as that.

I'm waiting - I've already waited 22 years - and I'm happy waiting... As long as it takes.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 15, 2008, 01:21:16 PM
@neon22 - No, you don't sound like anything, but common sense.  I'll wait.  Why not?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 15, 2008, 01:26:52 PM
We all have to wait but it's still our right to air our frustration.  :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 15, 2008, 01:29:52 PM
Hmmm.

Well its extremely likely this is going to sound wanky but...
I've been doing CG professionally since 1986 and TG2 is the ONLY program I have seen that looks like its going to be photorealistic in this domain.

And personally - speaking only for myself - I love it - and I'd wait another 5 years for it actually.
Its as simple to me as that.

I'm waiting - I've already waited 22 years - and I'm happy waiting... As long as it takes.



22 Years! Damn !  I'd love to look at some of your creations. Would you mind sharing some links to you work? I can always use some Inspiration.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 15, 2008, 01:43:46 PM
We all have to wait but it's still our right to air our frustration.  :)

Indeed. Personally, I don't define 'common sense' as meekly standing by while the delivery date for a product I've already paid for is indefinitely postponed.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 15, 2008, 01:51:18 PM
@Harvey and @joshbakr - I have almost quit rendering due to various errors or lack within TG2 and have seriously been considering buying Vue just to know I have something that works well enough to do what I'd like to do.  I've expressed this a few times here on Planetside, but I'm waiting nevertheless.  I haven't seen anything come close to the potential within TG2...even Vue.

Someday, maybe it will have been worth the wait.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bobbystahr on April 15, 2008, 02:46:54 PM
We all have to wait but it's still our right to air our frustration.  :)

Indeed. Personally, I don't define 'common sense' as meekly standing by while the delivery date for a product I've already paid for is indefinitely postponed.

I can see you've never used Imagine3D, trueSpace,Poser, or Bryce which all had internimally long downtimes tween paid for updates...seems that that is what happens when you try to create a really good app with a limited number of code tweakers to do the work....at least PS communicates with us when they have something to announce...rather that than being ignored as I was with the aformentioned apps...which I now only use Imagine3D of that group.. ...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 15, 2008, 02:50:36 PM
I have almost quit rendering due to various errors or lack within TG2


...keep trying... i didn't have any error message since a long time... i must be lucky :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 15, 2008, 03:01:21 PM
Oh, I do.  I have two renders I'm working on now.   ;D

I have almost quit rendering due to various errors or lack within TG2


...keep trying... i didn't have any error message since a long time... i must be lucky :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 15, 2008, 03:40:56 PM
ok cool... i was afraid you quit until next release (almost said next year ^^')
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on April 15, 2008, 08:39:13 PM
@Harvey and @joshbakr - I have almost quit rendering due to various errors or lack within TG2 and have seriously been considering buying Vue just to know I have something that works well enough to do what I'd like to do.  I've expressed this a few times here on Planetside, but I'm waiting nevertheless.  I haven't seen anything come close to the potential within TG2...even Vue.

Someday, maybe it will have been worth the wait.
your right i have mojo vue bryce truespace the lot
and they barely scratch the surface of terragen 2's realism
i cant wait till it is released its going to make vue 6 look like bryce 2!!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on April 18, 2008, 06:04:43 AM
I'd like to apologize to everyone sincerely for not responding sooner to the recent flood of posts.

I took a few days this past week to move to a new apartment in San Francisco from my long-time home in Santa Rosa and have been living in a house full of every kind of disarray imaginable, waiting on an Internet connection and time to setup my computers. Last I saw, Matt was discussing in team email an update to this thread, and since he knows best what is going on and his direct communication is the best source for all of you, I figured it would be taken care of and felt comfortable being "offline" for a few days.
I think Jo's response here, while perhaps "unofficial", is really the best and most frank assessment of the situation that is possible and I'm glad that he stepped in and spoke candidly. I would like to respond to more of this thread but I really think it's best if Matt does so at this point.

One thing is certain: I don't blame any of you for your frustration, most particularly those who have pre-purchased. I can't do anything to resolve the coding difficulties that are at the root of this, but I will do my best - for what it's worth - to make possible some kind of Thank You, a special reward, to the pre-purchasers for their patience and support. We certainly owe you all that much.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 18, 2008, 07:22:25 AM
Thanx Oshyan...

I can imagine it's hard for you too, after all the moving and troubles and unpacking, to come back to this thread being 30 pages longer.
We all know you mean well and try hard.

Still, some kind of special thank you is allways nice  ;) ;D

What are you thinking of? Special plants that you made yourself?  :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: SilverCity on April 18, 2008, 08:24:31 AM
I already invested $99.00 for version 0.9 and am on the fence about whether or not to go forward and spend another $100.00-$200.00 to pre-purchase TG2. Anyone here actually regret plunking down their money for TG2, or are you just disappointed in the delay in the release date?

If implementing multi-threading is the main roadblock, has there been any thought in releasing a build with all the other new features/fixes included and holding off on multi-threading until it's been perfected?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on April 18, 2008, 08:48:29 AM

Thanx Oshyan...

I can imagine it's hard for you too, after all the moving and troubles and unpacking, to come back to this thread being 30 pages longer.
We all know you mean well and try hard.

Still, some kind of special thank you is allways nice  ;) ;D

What are you thinking of? Special plants that you made yourself?  :P

Or a bunch of awesome tgd's ;D

I already invested $99.00 for version 0.9 and am on the fence about whether or not to go forward and spend another $100.00-$200.00 to pre-purchase TG2. Anyone here actually regret plunking down their money for TG2, or are you just disappointed in the delay in the release date?

If implementing multi-threading is the main roadblock, has there been any thought in releasing a build with all the other new features/fixes included and holding off on multi-threading until it's been perfected?

No I certainly do not regret I've pre-purchased it a while ago. The extra's coming along with it like unlimited render size, render quality and populations (as far as your system can go of course) are well worth it to me.
The long long waiting for the final release is indeed very disappointing and maybe some people will make them feel they regret pre-purchasing it but I don't. The current features keep me going, though like everyone I'm really looking forward to things like transparency and especially multithreading.

I think that releasing a build with all the features except multithreading is not possible. Two reasons, first because such a build probably doesn't exist and would take a lot of time to build and secondly because as far as I know (!) the multi-threaded build is close to beta-release and thus stepping onto another road wouldn't make sense. I feel they're close to finishing it, so releasing another build wouldn't make sense to me.
Of course these are just feelings/thoughts, only one who can be definitive about this is Matt himself of course.

Martin
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on April 18, 2008, 08:49:03 AM
I already invested $99.00 for version 0.9 and am on the fence about whether or not to go forward and spend another $100.00-$200.00 to pre-purchase TG2. Anyone here actually regret plunking down their money for TG2, or are you just disappointed in the delay in the release date?

If implementing multi-threading is the main roadblock, has there been any thought in releasing a build with all the other new features/fixes included and holding off on multi-threading until it's been perfected?

Hi SilverCity, for me i've not regretted one bit paying for the TG2, it's an amazing bit of software. Of course I am disappointed with the delay but surely the end is near, then we can start thinking about TG3!  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 18, 2008, 09:46:54 AM
Anyone here actually regret plunking down their money for TG2, or are you just disappointed in the delay in the release date?

Neither, but I'm just very positive minded, can't do anything about that.

I bought Deep+Animation, and I'm very happy with it so far. Sure there are some things that make it crash, but for the most part I'm still learning, a lot! So I can easily fill the waiting time with trying and rendering. I've an animation rendering of 1920 frames, it's at frame 347 now. A few more of those and the new update is realeased.

Compared to all the other applications, TG2 is far out the most realistic, and so it's the only software I actually payd for, because it's the one I use the most.

I am used to the delays, so the only time I get my hopes up is when there's actually something to download... that really helps easing my state of mind.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 18, 2008, 12:57:33 PM
It's worth it.  Go for the big guns - the Animated Deep Version.

There are so many files here and so many helpful tutorials and so many helpful people, you'll get plenty of use out of TG2 even before the Beta comes out.  It's worth it.

I already invested $99.00 for version 0.9 and am on the fence about whether or not to go forward and spend another $100.00-$200.00 to pre-purchase TG2. Anyone here actually regret plunking down their money for TG2, or are you just disappointed in the delay in the release date?

If implementing multi-threading is the main roadblock, has there been any thought in releasing a build with all the other new features/fixes included and holding off on multi-threading until it's been perfected?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rmfrase on April 18, 2008, 01:05:38 PM
I have no regrets.  Eager anticipation nail-biting... yes.   

But those who have never written computer programs cannot imagine the emmense complexity involved, or understand that if you fix one bug that something else (or more) may be effected in a negative fashion.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 18, 2008, 01:08:21 PM
I've been a blockhead.  Sorry.  I just read this (which nikita already posted) - http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg34609#msg34609

This must be harder than any of us thought.

Sorry, nikita.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 18, 2008, 01:44:33 PM
 I brought me Deep + Animation License the day after it was announced that licenses where available, I suspected way back in the early days on the Yahoo Group well before the first version of the Tech Preview was released that there would be delays in getting the final version released; my assertions have played out that way.

I understand that the delays there have been complex in nature, however hasn't progressed to the point to where peoples sympathy for whatís going on has almost ran out or in some case did along time ago?

My feelings are this, the more time a product stays in the development stage the higher the expectations become for the functionality of the final shipping product; also with increased time to market there is the expectation of high level documentation and product support, but also sufficient life cycles between intermittent up dates to allow for deployment testing, staff training and product use in its designated market segment.

Price point is vital to the way the product is seen in terms of its attractiveness to the market for the intended market segment of the product, product price point structure must be fair and yet competitive within the market space, be enough to recover development costs and provide revenue streams large enough for expansion and growth.

Development of any kind across time zones must be difficult, with key personnel not located in the same building you are not afforded opportunities for a sit down with some one to hammer out problems as they arise; thus increasing the likelihood of increased time to market "The Airbus A-380 is a case in point, due to Airbus Subcontractors having a different version of the design software from the German Subcontractors key electrical connectors didn't fit together, causing a four month delay in the delivery".

"Time is money" so the old chestnut goes, that is true, but what is also true in the software industry is that things happen fast meaning that if you move to slow then people are going to find away to pass you in the software equivalent of the Arms Race; there is another school of thought that says that if you move to quickly that is as bad if not worse then moving to slowly, so you are stuck between a rock and a hard place it is in the end about finding balance.

I do look forward to the Beta and the Gold release, but am not champing at the bit as it where, what ever comes it might not be what I expected but at least I will have it to learn and use the best I can and if there is some thing that I don't understand to quote Detective Inspector, Jack Frost [A Touch of Frost] "I'll ask a lot of silly questions, and hopefully get a lot not so silly answers".

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  ;D     


                             
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 18, 2008, 04:24:09 PM
I've been a blockhead.  Sorry.  I just read this (which nikita already posted) - http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg34609#msg34609

This must be harder than any of us thought.

Sorry, nikita.
No problem.. we all make mistakes  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: otakar on April 18, 2008, 05:16:49 PM
You might want to update the year on this page:

http://planetside.co.uk/terragen/tg2/prepurchase_tg2.shtml

I'd also suggest hiring a backup person to handle the website/PR/customer service. The image of the week has remained the same for how long? I know it's a grand image, but ...

I am actually amazed what this small team has accomplished so far. I wonder how many resources stand behind competing products in the same class. I would not be surprised if there were a huge scale difference across the board. And, as has been suggested, they all experience delays or roll out products full of bugs. What we have to work with is an outstanding tool. It's going to get even better.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 18, 2008, 05:26:16 PM
The image of the week has remained the same for how long? I know it's a grand image, but ...


one month ! lol ^^'
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 18, 2008, 06:17:08 PM
And now for our ongoing image of the week - http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/buissons_optimized.jpg.html

Congrats, Seth.  The longest someone has kept the title without going to the next competitor...uh, fellow TG2er.  Brilliant.   :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 18, 2008, 06:31:15 PM
I'll give up my title for an update :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 18, 2008, 06:53:59 PM
Or a bunch of awesome tgd's ;D

Yeah, maybe convince Luc to relinquish some ;D

I got Deep+Animation a few weeks back, best thing I've bought since Abe's Exoddus came out. and yes I am a total geek. :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 18, 2008, 07:09:32 PM
It's an awesome image, really.  Good enough for a tutorial.  On lighting.   :P

I'll give up my title for an update :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: SilverCity on April 18, 2008, 09:14:05 PM
Thanks to all who responded to my post. I got really excited when TG2 was first announced last year. However, I started to get worried when I saw the release dates starting to slip by. Some of you seem to think that we are getting close to a final version being released. I hope you are right.

Will notice be given for a pre-purchase pricing deadline? Previously, that date was February 15, 2008.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 18, 2008, 09:20:58 PM
Will notice be given for a pre-purchase pricing deadline? Previously, that date was February 15, 2008.

I guess when they have the next release date...
But I suggest you purchase as soon as possible, so Matt and Jo can pay the rent and the electrical bills for the next month  ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on April 22, 2008, 05:27:02 AM
Pre-release pricing will continue until the final release is available.

The Image of the Week delay is due to the same moving issues, I'm afraid. I'll update it very soon. :)

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 22, 2008, 04:26:35 PM
Hi all,

I'm sorry that regular information has been thin on the ground recently. Any failings are my responsibility. I'm aware that we need to do more to keep you in the loop, especially when we go through lengthy and delayed development stages as we are now. It appears that there is a danger of Oshyan being unfairly exposed to people's frustrations and blamed for the lack of information we've been able to provide. Regarding release schedules and development progress Oshyan can only work with whatever information comes from myself and from internal discussions, so I hope you'll give him the understanding he deserves while he's helping Jo and myself concentrate on other tasks.
 
I think most of the rest of what I want to say at the moment has already been said by Jo and Oshyan, but there a few points I'd like to reiterate or elaborate on.

For the last 6 months at least it hasn't been feasible to release incremental updates because of the nature of the changes being made to the software. It took a couple of months to restructure some important parts of the renderer for multi-threading (multi-core support) and to lay the foundation for the improved ray tracing engine. It was impossible to break this work into individual improvements to be released as minor updates. The "nightly builds" or even monthly builds would have been unable to render shadows and many of the other things which you would expect from the software, no matter how many disclaimers we were to attach. Since then it has taken another 4 months to make it all work well enough for the alpha testers to successfully render the images you've seen. We have no desire to hold back these new features from you - regular updates make us feel good too - but unfortunately we made some big mistakes in our estimate of how long all this would take. Regular software updates are something we are striving for as we move forward, but there will probably always be some development phases along the way that will prevent this occasionally.

I'm sorry that some of you have felt insulted by our decision to release (or allow to be released) some of the water transparency images. This is something that many had asked for. As soon as it became possible to render these kinds of images we thought it was one way that we could be open about the progress we had made while we were uncertain about the actual time to completion. It was never our intention to tease, only to respond to a clear and direct request from many of you and to demonstrate some progress in a way that seemed best at the time.

A few weeks I ago I promised that I would regularly report here on the feedback we got from the alpha testers. Since then there were quite a number of crashes which I had attempted to fix and I was waiting on confirmation from the alpha testers. I wanted to avoid yet more vague posts saying that there were new problems to be solved without knowing whether or not they had been solved. Well, the feedback from the last couple of alpha builds has been much more positive. We now (at last!) have alpha builds that we think many of you will benefit from, and we will make something available to licensed pre-purchasers within the next 7 days. You should consider it "unstable" - we wouldn't recommend using it in production or using it if you are concerned about new crashes and render problems - but it is ready for those who would like to test the new features and fixes we've made while the application is still a little unstable.

Thanks,

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on April 22, 2008, 04:37:36 PM
 Well I wont hold you to the 7 Days but, "WooHoo, Way to Go Matt", Great news looking forward to it.

Richard

ps: just a thought, if the soon to be released update is "unstable" could we have an idea what sort of things are liable to make it fall over with the release notes? Save us the hassle of discovering that our long held back master work is just one of those things :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 22, 2008, 04:38:51 PM
Yeah! 7 days!  :D
So this unstable release, will there be an additional beta release afterwards?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 22, 2008, 04:44:58 PM
Not even thinking about the new release, I think it's great that you could tear yourself away from the work to give us an update.

I'm sure we can all handle the instability until the next update. I hŠve to have that transparency to finish all those projects, albeit it low resolution or something...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 22, 2008, 04:56:12 PM
Nikita, yes there will be a separate Beta release at a later date. We're not quite ready for Beta (i.e. feature-frozen for final release), but we are very close. The unstable release is essentially an alpha build that we're making available to those who really want to get their hands dirty or get a glimpse of what's new.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 22, 2008, 05:00:06 PM
ps: just a thought, if the soon to be released update is "unstable" could we have an idea what sort of things are liable to make it fall over with the release notes? Save us the hassle of discovering that our long held back master work is just one of those things :)

I think we can include some notes about known problems, yes.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: choronr on April 22, 2008, 06:02:47 PM
Hi Matt,

I think it would be a good idea to list the potential issues prior to releasing the program in the next several days. This way, we could decide whether or not to download the program; and, hold off until the final release.

Bob
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 22, 2008, 06:31:27 PM
Hi Bob,

OK, I'll do that.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: choronr on April 22, 2008, 07:19:03 PM
Thanks Matt; I appreciate your reply.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on April 22, 2008, 07:31:56 PM
Many thanks for the update.  I am looking forward to working this release, even if its got stability issues.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 22, 2008, 10:27:35 PM
Thanks for the newest information, Matt.  Thanks for letting us get a look at what is going on firsthand.  That said, I'll say with some measure of unpopularity no doubt, that I might still wait for the Beta.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: glen5700 on April 22, 2008, 10:52:55 PM
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the update, I'm looking forward to the download and no matter what the issues I will be trying it out.

Thanks for letting us in early.

Glen
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: echrei on April 23, 2008, 12:35:23 AM
This makes me really glad that I pre-purchased the app. I can't wait to test out the new features. Thanks Matt!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rmfrase on April 23, 2008, 02:26:05 AM
re: "ready to get their hands dirty..."  I'm ready to jump in the mud.   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: NWsenior07 on April 23, 2008, 04:27:23 AM
Thanks for the update Matt, I'm looking forward to some new things to play with. And your hard work has certainly not gone underappreciated.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Fenring on April 23, 2008, 10:02:20 AM
Matt thank you for your update makes at least me feel slightly less frustrated, apart from the instability, will the speed of renders in this new alpha version be similar or identical to the upcoming beta?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 23, 2008, 01:37:56 PM
Matt thank you for your update makes at least me feel slightly less frustrated, apart from the instability, will the speed of renders in this new alpha version be similar or identical to the upcoming beta?

Probably similar, but if a chance arises to improve the speed then of course I will use it :)

However, memory use will probably change between now and the Beta. Multi-threaded rendering currently uses more memory (and it varies with the number of threads), and that can cause a problem with the 2Gb/3Gb limit that Windows imposes on 32-bit applications, but I'm still working on it. Multi-threaded rendering is still an at-your-own-risk option for the time being.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on April 24, 2008, 01:57:22 AM
hey this is great news im so glad i pre-purchased my terragen 2  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 24, 2008, 04:49:15 PM
very nice news !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Rich2 on April 25, 2008, 12:56:31 AM
For one thing, we should all be grateful that Planetside is business for customer satisfaction!  I cannot fathom the least of the difficulties they endure while trying to release a quality product - and this one seems to be able to exceed capabilities its predecessors couldn't touch!  I tip my hat and raise my glass to the teamwork that has brought TG2 this far!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 25, 2008, 03:02:35 AM
Wholeheartedly agree with you, Rich.

Here's to Planetside.  <ching>   ;D


For one thing, we should all be grateful that Planetside is business for customer satisfaction!  I cannot fathom the least of the difficulties they endure while trying to release a quality product - and this one seems to be able to exceed capabilities its predecessors couldn't touch!  I tip my hat and raise my glass to the teamwork that has brought TG2 this far!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 25, 2008, 03:48:39 AM
For one thing, we should all be grateful that Planetside is business for customer satisfaction!  I cannot fathom the least of the difficulties they endure while trying to release a quality product - and this one seems to be able to exceed capabilities its predecessors couldn't touch!  I tip my hat and raise my glass to the teamwork that has brought TG2 this far!

If this release comes out in the next 7 days as Matt said then I will Raise my Glass.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 25, 2008, 02:23:45 PM
Thanks Rich, Calico :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 25, 2008, 02:23:56 PM
Some information on the upcoming public alpha here:

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3901.0

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: FrankB on April 25, 2008, 03:06:10 PM
That's a really, really big list! Seeing them all together on one page helps realize how much work went into this!

Regards,
Frank
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 25, 2008, 03:12:38 PM
That's a really, really big list! Seeing them all together on one page helps realize how much work went into this!

Regards,
Frank

My thoughts exactly! Thank You for taking the time for this!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on April 25, 2008, 03:13:20 PM
Thanks for the update Matt, and that list of changes seem HUGE. Great work :)
I have no web connection for the time being at home so I'm lugging my tired old lappy down to the nearest unseccured web cafe and hopping theres a little present waiting for me one morning. SO were looking at begining of next week now are we? Cant wait
Richard
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on April 25, 2008, 03:24:28 PM
Cheers Matt - looks like a colossal effort! :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Xpleet on April 25, 2008, 05:09:44 PM
Is there a planned -PUBLIC- non-deep edition any time soon??

Just for the sake of multicore support...please  :'( no matter how lacky it is.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: choronr on April 25, 2008, 05:49:35 PM
Thanks Matt; you're nearing the final release; and, we sure appreciate your efforts!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 25, 2008, 06:26:19 PM
Wow! You've not only been working on multithreading and transparency, so it's pretty logical why this update has taken such a long time.
Great job on all the improvements!

I like this one: "Parameters with 'color' in their names are renamed to use 'colour' in most, if not all, non-deprecated nodes. Old projects and clip files will load without problems."
Did some Brits complain?  :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on April 25, 2008, 07:06:30 PM
Wow! You've not only been working on multithreading and transparency, so it's pretty logical why this update has taken such a long time.
Great job on all the improvements!

I like this one: "Parameters with 'color' in their names are renamed to use 'colour' in most, if not all, non-deprecated nodes. Old projects and clip files will load without problems."
Did some Brits complain?  :P

lol, glad the software is going to use the Queens English  :P
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 25, 2008, 07:07:21 PM
Great list!  Nice to be able to read this.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 25, 2008, 07:29:42 PM
lol, glad the software is going to use the Queens English  :P

Shouldn't that be 'Queen's English', then?   ;D

"Fixed a problem with menus being leaked. This very probably has been causing the problems on Windows with the UI locking up, and odd flashing etc. The same leak was occurring on OS X, but it does not cause the same sorts of problems."

Hah! I suspected a resource leak was behind this - said so here more than once.   :)

And not to put too fine a point on it, but this, like nearly every other fix on the list, is totally independent of the renderer and could (potentially) have been addressed in an interim release long ago.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on April 25, 2008, 08:37:32 PM
*Zionner feels dizzy after reading all those notes

Thanks for this Matt!!

Looks like you've had your hands full with those bug fixes ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on April 25, 2008, 08:40:17 PM
lol, glad the software is going to use the Queens English  :P

Shouldn't that be 'Queen's English', then?   ;D


hehe you got me.

At least we know why this next version has taken so long to appear, it's taken this long to write out that list.  :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 25, 2008, 08:51:15 PM
At least we know why this next version has taken so long to appear, it's taken this long to write out that list.  :)
:D   :D   :)

Yeah... no question it represents a lot of work. (The development work, not the list. Well, the list, too.  :D  )
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on April 25, 2008, 09:41:14 PM
look at the size of the list :o
my mouth is drooling just looking at all the new and improved content
thanks so much matt,Jo and the rest of planetside staff :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 25, 2008, 10:04:47 PM
look at the size of the list :o
my mouth is drooling just looking at all the new and improved content
thanks so much matt :)

Lot of drooling going on here!  Maybe Planetside should issue "Beta Bibs" with each download so you guys don't mess up the front of your shirts or drip on your keyboards.  ;) :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on April 25, 2008, 10:40:52 PM
ummmmmmmmm terragen!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on April 25, 2008, 10:51:26 PM
a serious question ;D
how do you sign up for the planet side newsletter?
or do you just get it it automatically if you buy terragen 2 deep

will the new build be sent to everyone who as bought terragen 2 deep?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bobbystahr on April 26, 2008, 12:11:17 AM
I'd like to add my Thanks to Matt et al for the obvious mounds of work they've already put into this update. To me, it addresses issues I never knew I had and now they'll be fixed before I notice...LOL...thanx again man.. ...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 26, 2008, 11:35:02 AM
I think if you received your license via email, you should be on Planetside's email list.


a serious question ;D
how do you sign up for the planet side newsletter?
or do you just get it it automatically if you buy terragen 2 deep

will the new build be sent to everyone who as bought terragen 2 deep?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: FrankB on April 26, 2008, 12:44:39 PM
Jo,

looking at that list again - a special "public" thanks to you as well! I know you've dealt with most of the new UI features, and in my eyes, these new improvements and enhancements to the UI - however small or large - together make TG2 much more easy to use than before.

Cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bertrand on April 26, 2008, 03:25:21 PM
This deeply disappointed early purchaser may fire up TG2 again next week for the first time in a year...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: matrix2003 on April 26, 2008, 03:57:17 PM
"stability issues"  -Hell Ive had those for years!  ::)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 26, 2008, 04:11:59 PM
"stability issues"  -Hell Ive had those for years!  ::)

 :D   :D  Ahhh... a soul brother.

This deeply disappointed early purchaser may fire up TG2 again next week for the first time in a year...

Thank you, Bertrand. Any more of the unending syrup and I think I'd puke. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like the stream of brainless adulation in this thread. You'd think these people were being paid for the honor of using the product, rather than paying for a product that's never delivered.

I mean think about it. There had been no word about a planned release in the next week until a few of us raised hell here in the forum. I seriously doubt if the release would have happened at all had it not been for that pressure. And now that we've been told that a buggy, unfinished version MAY appear, months behind schedule and far from finished, the customers who've been burned seem to be, as a body, engaged in idol worship with the organization that has broken trust with them.

Get a grip, people.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 26, 2008, 05:32:49 PM
@Harvey - While I understand despising the art of ass-kissing, I'd say "brainless" is a bit much.  After thinking about it, it's obvious not many people out there are doing what Matt and Jo have done already.  The recent changes are forgiveable, as a programmer.  What I'd hate is if Planetside released a piece of crap to us and called it good.  That hasn't happened in this case (we're still at the Alpha stage...not even Beta) and I'd bet money that the end result 2.0 will be solid.  It would be a terrible blow, if Planetside let such confidence go to hell.

What I paid for was an Alpha release, which was made clear to me before I purchased.  That list that we just read from Matt was a privilege that none of us have a right to demand to see.  They could have told us two years ago to wait for the final release and we'd still be waiting or burning through the bugs of Vue without hands-on.  So I'm grateful I'm getting in on this and grateful that I have learned about another programmer's process. 

I could care less if someone thinks I'm kissing up.  I've programmed enough to know that this doesn't happen every day.  What does happen every day is the burgeoning pile of shit bunch of software that is churned out from here to China that frustrates customers who never see the promised end result and can't get refunded.  I wholeheartedly believe that such nonsense won't happen to Planetside's end users.  This isn't from lack of experience or being a young kiss-ass.  It's from being around enough to see that what Planetside is saying clearly in writing they will do, they will do. 

Of course, on the other hand (trying to be fair, since I know you're a logical person), I'd rather have the 1.0 version in my hands right now along with good object support.  But, I can wish in one hand and piss in the other and see which one dries out first.   ;D 

If it sounds like I took what you said personally, I did. 

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 26, 2008, 05:41:05 PM
Sorry if I've offended you but I'm not about to retract anything I said.

If you find you're personally offended, perhaps it's because you're investing a bit too much of yourself in Planetside's defense.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 26, 2008, 07:54:17 PM

Thank you, Bertrand. Any more of the unending syrup and I think I'd puke. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like the stream of brainless adulation in this thread. You'd think these people were being paid for the honor of using the product, rather than paying for a product that's never delivered.

I mean think about it. There had been no word about a planned release in the next week until a few of us raised hell here in the forum. I seriously doubt if the release would have happened at all had it not been for that pressure. And now that we've been told that a buggy, unfinished version MAY appear, months behind schedule and far from finished, the customers who've been burned seem to be, as a body, engaged in idol worship with the organization that has broken trust with them.

Get a grip, people.

Okay, I understand you might not agree with me if I respect the guys from Planetside. That doesn't mean I agree with you terminology. I'm not worshipping them, because I know they are diffinately not perfect. They made mistakes in PR, and aren't that good in running a business. However, I do want to take it up for them, because they may not have the time to do so themselves while working hard to finish YOUR product as soon as possible.

They are great programmers. So I paid for the software, but I think it's commendable that there will also be a free version that will produce the same photorealistic quality!

But it comes down to this: we can talk about this another 40 pages, but if you're not statisfied with the product or the service, then delete your registry key, and ask for a refund (in no particular order). But quit whining about it...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Harvey Birdman on April 26, 2008, 08:04:12 PM
So you're officially entitled to offer refunds on Planetside's behalf?

I'll tell you what. Since you object to my publicly holding Planetside to account for their broken promises, I suggest you do without the upcoming release, like Calico. The only reason it's being released is because I and others bitched; if the bitching is so objectionable to you, you shouldn't use the update.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on April 26, 2008, 08:46:44 PM
Thanks for all the hard work Planetside. :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 26, 2008, 09:12:02 PM
a serious question ;D
how do you sign up for the planet side newsletter?
or do you just get it it automatically if you buy terragen 2 deep
On the page were you bought your key, there was a check box that let you chose whether or not to receive announcements via e-mails. But in reality, e-mails are sent and received by planetside at random  ;D (there are problems with the mailing system)


Concerning syrup & brainless drooling:
One has to distinguish between a) understanding planetside's excuses and b) accepting them. I think Matt and Jo do their best and I understand that switching to multithreading etc. wasn't a trivial task. But excuses don't make everything alright all of a sudden! Mistakes have been made and in fact we still suffer from them as the final release is still far, far away.

So I think there might be a misunderstanding here.. calico's talking about a, HB talking about b.


btw: We don't even have the release yet. I know it's only a few days of waiting, but we've been here before.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 26, 2008, 09:15:19 PM
So you're officially entitled to offer refunds on Planetside's behalf?

I'll tell you what. Since you object to my publicly holding Planetside to account for their broken promises, I suggest you do without the upcoming release, like Calico. The only reason it's being released is because I and others bitched; if the bitching is so objectionable to you, you shouldn't use the update.

Look, I congratulate you, I THANK YOU, I kneel before you, because you got Planetside to give us the alpha now. *Bows* *que massive applause*

Dude, this is Planetside HQ, this is THE fan base. We are the groupies. So we are blind to mistakes our beloved stars make, but love them for their hard work. You, dear Harvey, are the only sane person out here. So what are you doing here? You don't belong here... you have way to much sanity and logic to be among us fools.


Seriously, we may praise Planetside too much for what they do, and you are probably right to complain about their broke promises and stuff, but I don't think you're making a lot of friends by insulting all of us and calling names. If you get sick of all the praise (and perhaps a wee bit jealous), then don't follow this thread.
I BEG YOU, please try to be a bit more diplomatic a bout your choice of words, before this thread get's locked for improper behaviour.

(And for the record, I didn't offer you a refund, I just preposed you ask for one, you might get lucky...)


You are allowed to Bitch, and we really are gratefull for the public alpha, so thank you.
But not everyone appreciates being Bitched on. So there is a time for Bitching, and a time for nice talk.
Let's go for the nice talk for a few pages, before continuing the Bitching.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on April 26, 2008, 10:20:33 PM
a serious question ;D
how do you sign up for the planet side newsletter?
or do you just get it it automatically if you buy terragen 2 deep
On the page were you bought your key, there was a check box that let you chose whether or not to receive announcements via e-mails. But in reality, e-mails are sent and received by planetside at random  ;D (there are problems with the mailing system)


thanks ;D


@ calico mind your language  >:(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 26, 2008, 11:09:13 PM
Harvey and everyone, thanks for your comments.  What I'm concerned about is that Matt and Jo might be two of a larger group of programmers out there somewhere who can actually do what Planetside is doing, but I only know about Planetside.  If you'll let me know who else might be letting the customer base get in at this level on such a uniquely programmed product, then I'll get involved. 

If not, I'm waiting on Planetside to do this well without mistakes, which might take extra time.  If I find out that Planetside is screwing with us and really do not mean business, I will deal with that.  I don't think they are.

Matt and Jo, I'm trusting that you're giving this TG2 your best (as well as are all of the testers and PR people) and hope to see a brilliant package someday.  Hope it's sooner rather than later.  I'm also interested in someday being able to work with an SDK.   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 26, 2008, 11:13:29 PM
I only know about Planetside.  If you'll let me know who else might be letting the customer base get in at this level on such a uniquely programmed product, then I'll get involved.
http://sourceforge.net   ;) I guess you'll find some unique projects among the 175.000 hosted there.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 27, 2008, 01:36:29 AM
I've been there, nikita.  Know of any like this one?

I'll look again, nevertheless.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 27, 2008, 01:45:07 AM
Heh.. there are many Open Source projects that are absolutely unique. Just think of Linux. The project that's most like TG2 is probably Blender. :)
But I'm not trying to start a fight. Just couldn't resist to counter your argument  ;D

I guess if you consider commercial projects, which is probably what you meant anyway, there aren't many that are like TG2.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 27, 2008, 02:38:04 AM
Oh, hey, I'm not fighting.  Everything's cool.   8)  I'm looking.  This one seems pretty interesting - http://sourceforge.net/projects/saga-gis
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 27, 2008, 06:02:33 AM
The Pro Rota of this thread is now well beyond its intended use indeed the rational is becoming hard to understand as to precisely what people want, but the factions here now seem roughly divided into two camps.

It would seem now that Planetside, no matter what they do weather it is right, wrong or indifferent until the Beta and the final gold release are simply not going to be allowed to catch a break or even come up for air until such time as people get what they what; what are we may I ask Grownups or Toddlers at kinder garden?

Assuming, that the critique of the situation is some where near the truth or at least the perceived version of the truth form any one individuals point of view, one can therefore say about the arguments presented thus far (The sum total of posts to this thread) when surmised together dose or dose not present the whole unified version of the truth only fragments of it.

Uncertainty brings discontent, it is discontent then that is by and large that seems to be the real issue here; that is to say people by and large like control when they feel out of control or they feel they have little if any control (Like software release schedules) this frightens them and in this state they react in ways that under different conditions they would not, this is a physiological condition designed to protect people form harm, either from some thing in their environment or form self action.

Many people have pre-paid for their license I am one, OK so whats all the hubbub, whats it, I said whats it all about son? To my mind no amount of flag waving , shouting from high rooftops or lobbying here is going to get this product out the door any quicker: now that may go down like a lead balloon or incur gowns from the peanut gallery, but heres the thing please accept that what people want and what they get are two separate things and that sooner or latter that the object of your desires will be yours, just not yet.

All that aside every one has their point to make and I've made mine...Hope thats crystal?

 ;D

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel                   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 27, 2008, 07:20:33 AM
To my mind no amount of flag waving , shouting from high rooftops or lobbying here is going to get this product out the door any quicker: now that may go down like a lead balloon...               

Actually, the Mythbusters have busted that expression, because they have made lead baloon that goes up  :P

Anyways, I don;t think anyone is right or wrong, that's what oppinions are for...
so when I said to Harvey not to follow this thread, I was wrong, because as CA just pointed out, what is the use of this thread? It's set up so we can spill out guts abou twhat we think about the delay.
So I owe you an appology Harvey, I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on April 27, 2008, 10:40:28 AM
Well what an amusing thread we have here. ;)
It seems that for all the vitriol we have here its just evidance of the fact that a lot of people (some more vocal than others, of which I sometimes include myself ;) ) care deeply about Terragen, what it once was, what it is now and what it may become. Its difficult sometimes to keep in mind that Planetside are a TINY company and it would be unfair to expect them to act like a larger established software developer. Indeed we get far closer contact with the guys at the sharp end than is commonly to be expected. Remember when the last update came out, the obj smoothing isue was sorted within 4 days!

Another important thing to remember is that we have a direct effect on the performance of the Planetside staff. If we spend a lot of time slagging them off and generally bringing them down and complaining that dose not create an enviroment condusive to excelance.

Lay off the complaints and winging, it makes people sad :(
Lay on the praise and thanks, it makes people happy :)

I've ben at much at fault as anyone else here but I will try to restrain my feedback to the constreuctive in the future.

keep up the good work

Richard
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 27, 2008, 06:54:25 PM
a serious question ;D
how do you sign up for the planet side newsletter?
or do you just get it it automatically if you buy terragen 2 deep

will the new build be sent to everyone who as bought terragen 2 deep?

If you checked "subscribe to receive announcements" when you purchased online, you are on our list. In any case, you can send an email to terragen@planetside.co.uk asking to be added to our list. If you're using a different email to the one given when you purchased, please let us know so that we can update our database.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 28, 2008, 09:04:47 PM
I just got the e-mail with the update download link, and I'm installing it now!!

Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on April 28, 2008, 09:09:28 PM
Same :D *Cant Wait!!*
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: joshbakr on April 28, 2008, 09:09:48 PM
Yeah, I just got mine and downloaded the msi. Have to install later though.  Thanks Planetside!  This should hold me for a while.  :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: adit on April 28, 2008, 09:11:15 PM
I've installed it, but it seems that it's still only using a single core. I've got a core 2 quad processor (will check exactly which model if you guys want it).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Costaud on April 28, 2008, 09:11:40 PM
hihihihihihihi  :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on April 28, 2008, 09:13:59 PM
I've installed it, but it seems that it's still only using a single core. I've got a core 2 quad processor (will check exactly which model if you guys want it).

If I remember Matt's explanation correctly, if it doesn't detect the cores correctly, you would be able to set the amount of cores in the preferences/settings screen...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 28, 2008, 09:16:33 PM
I've installed it, but it seems that it's still only using a single core. I've got a core 2 quad processor (will check exactly which model if you guys want it).
You have to change the core number in the More settings tab in the setting of the render node.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: matrix2003 on April 28, 2008, 09:17:33 PM
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on April 28, 2008, 09:19:18 PM
Cheers Planetside - it looks terrific. Just had a quick play and already I can see how the new ui workflow is going to aid creativity (if only through less hair pulling :)).

Thanks again and well done guys for getting this out! :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: adit on April 28, 2008, 09:24:46 PM
I've installed it, but it seems that it's still only using a single core. I've got a core 2 quad processor (will check exactly which model if you guys want it).
You have to change the core number in the More settings tab in the setting of the render node.

Gracias! I missed that.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on April 28, 2008, 09:25:29 PM
Its working perfectly for me :P

Wow! I can see through the water!! :D lol
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 28, 2008, 09:26:55 PM
To any TG2 Deep pre-purchasers who have not yet received the email, please wait a few hours. All the emails have been sent but they can take a few hours to be processed by mail servers.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 28, 2008, 09:31:33 PM
General question: What about pre-purchasers who chose to not subscribe to the announcement e-mails?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: adit on April 28, 2008, 09:32:55 PM
Holy crap, just did the benchmark render (had ff running, so not completely fair), but I got it in record time: 2:27!

You guys are amazing. This alpha is what I've been waiting for; I'm really happy with planetside.

EDIT:
Tried my render again with firefox off and the time was 1:51.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on April 28, 2008, 09:43:21 PM
My word indeed. Just did the benchmark in 47 secs (3 Ghz quad core). Amazing work guys!! :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 28, 2008, 09:50:16 PM
I've got it!  And I'm trying it.  LOL
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on April 28, 2008, 09:51:07 PM
Thank you !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: reck on April 28, 2008, 09:55:43 PM
Thanks! I'm loving the interactive crop tool.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bertrand on April 28, 2008, 10:01:12 PM
Working like a charm here on my Quad. Well done guys.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Marcos Silveira on April 28, 2008, 11:00:10 PM
I've installed it, but it seems that it's still only using a single core. I've got a core 2 quad processor (will check exactly which model if you guys want it).
You have to change the core number in the More settings tab in the setting of the render node.

I can't find it... :(
I only see:
*detail blending;
*displacement filter;
*do reverse primary rays;
*minimum threads - 1;
*maximum threads - 16.
Where is that Core number option?!?!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: moodflow on April 28, 2008, 11:02:01 PM
Pretty sweet so far.  Many thanks Planetside!  8)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 28, 2008, 11:06:26 PM
I've installed it, but it seems that it's still only using a single core. I've got a core 2 quad processor (will check exactly which model if you guys want it).
You have to change the core number in the More settings tab in the setting of the render node.

I can't find it... :(
I only see:
*detail blending;
*displacement filter;
*do reverse primary rays;
*minimum threads - 1;
*maximum threads - 16.
Where is that Core number option?!?!
Set minimum threads to you core number. :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rmfrase on April 28, 2008, 11:27:48 PM
Just installed it - so Sweet!

Also, Ran the Benchmark for T2.

Under two Minutes!  (1:53.)   
Previous was (3:42)

Simply Awesome.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 28, 2008, 11:54:22 PM
One question regarding bugs... if we, say, try to copy nodes, delete list elements or do other things that cause crashes.
Do you want us to report bugs?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rmfrase on April 29, 2008, 12:04:01 AM
I'm Simply Amazed at the sheer Raw Speed of having an 8-Core Xeon system and this new Release.

Yesterday at 3:15PM, I started on a render.  Today, I turned it off after 26hrs so that I can install the new Build Release.

Now, In just (22 Minutes) it had already surpassed where the system was for the previous days (26hrs) of work.

What else can one say?


-Robert
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mr_Lamppost on April 29, 2008, 12:06:58 AM
AaaaaaggggHHHHHH!!!

I am right in the middle of something that is needs done yesterday so donít dare download and try it.    >:( :(

AaarrrggHH!!!! Hate  >:( ::)  Kill   ??? >:( >:( ::) >:(  Destroy   >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(       EXTERMINATE!!!!   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 29, 2008, 12:19:10 AM
General question: What about pre-purchasers who chose to not subscribe to the announcement e-mails?

They can send an email to support@planetside.co.uk explaining the situation and we will sort it out. For email addresses already associated with a TG2 purchase it's straightforward for us to subscribe it to the list, otherwise please let us know what your old email address was or provide some other proof of purchase (confirmation email or a copy of the key file).

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 29, 2008, 12:22:49 AM
One question regarding bugs... if we, say, try to copy nodes, delete list elements or do other things that cause crashes.
Do you want us to report bugs?

Yes, please report bugs you find in this alpha build. Please start a new topic in the Terragen 2 Support section, as you would with any other version, clearly stating which build you are using (in this case 1.9.88.1)

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mr_Lamppost on April 29, 2008, 12:43:25 AM
Bug*** it. I punted all the must do stuff to my laptop and am downloading now.  Who gives a monkeys if I have work tomorrow.  ;D ;D
Title: Where's my notification
Post by: gregsandor on April 29, 2008, 12:56:59 AM
I haven't received the email (likely due to email filters not planetside); please send it to me now.  I'll give you alternate email address via PM.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: wholehog on April 29, 2008, 12:58:28 AM
Faaaaantastic!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Costaud on April 29, 2008, 01:01:10 AM
Render time for image with water is worst than before but I have a single core computer (a Athlon 3500)   :(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: gregsandor on April 29, 2008, 01:05:51 AM
Render time for image with water is worst than before but I have a single core computer (a Athlon 3500)   :(

Maybe because it wasn't calculating transparency before.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on April 29, 2008, 03:53:47 AM
Settings for adjusting the min/max render cores are in the individual Render Nodes, under the More Settings tab.

Costaud, although render times may have slightly increased for reflective surfaces (water being one example), this should also come with an increase in stability and accuracy. Also note that I believe transparency is on by default so this may be contributing to an increased render time for water as compared to previous versions.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ZStar on April 29, 2008, 04:07:21 AM
I figured I would start here before going to Support. 

I installed the new version but I am not seeing any performance gains.  In fact, it seems to run significantly slower than the 1.9.04.1 build.  I have a dual core Intel with 2GB.  TG is detecting two cores but even if I set the minimum thread count to 2, I see no improvement.  The files I have been testing do not have water so transparency rendering should not be an issue.

Originally, I installed the new version in a new folder but when I saw no improvement in render time I figured there must be some conflict with the prior version that was still on the system.  I removed both versions, reinstalled 1.9.04.1 and then reinstalled 1.9.88.1 on top and no change.  I have tried several different project files with similar results.

I assume I have made some simple mistake but I have no idea what. 

Has anyone else encountered a similar problem?

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on April 29, 2008, 04:24:41 AM
I'm not sure what your issue might be without knowing a bit more information, but first we should make sure you are running on a clean install. You indicate that you essentially installed the new version over the old version in both cases (even after you removed both you reinstalled 1.9.0.41). The correct procedure is to simply uninstall the previous version then install the new one. This will make sure that only the files from the new version are present, and your keyfile should be recognized automatically.

In regards to your performance problems, if you can use a common benchmarking scene to get more measurable indications of the actual results before/after, that would be very helpful. This scene would be good to test: http://tg2bench.kk3d.de/

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ZStar on April 29, 2008, 04:33:57 AM
Thanks, Oshyan.  I'll try a clean install.  One of the files I did try was the benchmark you suggested.  My results went from 3:46 (previous version) to 4:06 (new version).  Another file went from 7:54 to 10:56.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on April 29, 2008, 04:41:27 AM
Very surprising. You might also try reducing min/max threads to 0 or 1 just as a test. With those settings it should perform very similar to the previous version. Make sure you're running the test under similar circumstances - ideally re-run the test with current configuration. A reboot before testing would also be advisable if possible.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ZStar on April 29, 2008, 05:17:37 AM
I tried a clean reinstall of the new version and ran the benchmark three times with a reboot before each run with the following results:

Min Threads = 0 ........ 4:04
                 = 1 ........ 4:10
                 = 2 ........ 4:06

The thread count did not seem to have much effect.  The clean install did not appear to help either. 

I'll sleep on it.  I may try disabling the anti-virus software tomorrow but I don't expect that to make much difference.

When comparing my benchmark results for the previous version to entries in the benchmark results table, my system seemed to be comparable to similar systems.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on April 29, 2008, 05:28:01 AM
If your result is now comparable to similar systems it sounds like it was previously above average? In any case it does seem as if the threading isn't working on your system, which is something we haven't seen yet, at least when min threads is set properly as you indicated you did. When rendering have you checked the task manager to make sure TG is using both cores? Is it the only process that is using significant CPU time?

If you can give more specific details of your system it may also be of use, specifically operating system and version (service pack), CPU speed and model if possible, any background tasks (antivirus, etc), and any other details you can provide.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 29, 2008, 11:27:50 AM
What I'm wondering, ZStar is if you changed the number of threads being used under the Render tab.  If not, would it take advantage of more than one processor, Oshyan?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 29, 2008, 11:40:30 AM
When I'm using my desktop pc, only one cpu is detected but that's fixable using min threads.
On my notebook, both cores are correctly detected and TG2 uses both of them (with min threads = 1)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ZStar on April 29, 2008, 11:59:51 AM
Oshyan, I apologize for not being clearer in my previous post.  The benchmark results I was getting with v1.9.04.1 were comparable to similar systems in the list.  The results with the new version are not.

I have a Dell XPS 410.  Here is my system info:

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600
2 cores @ 2400Mhz
2GB DDR2-667
(I could not find any motherboard chipset info in my computer paperwork)
Windows XP Pro SP2

Anti-virus type software (should be all the latest and greatest updates for all):

PC-cillin v14.60.1195 
Spybot - Search & Destroy v1.5.2.0
          - System settings protector 1.5.2.16
Windows Defender v1.1.1593.0

The task manager shows both cores being maxed.  TG is definitely getting better than 95-98% of the total CPU time on both cores.  When TG is "idle" (after preview rendering has completed) both CPUs are still showing +/-50% utilization.  When TG is not running task manager only shows the occasional blip on CPU usage.  This is the same behavior I saw with TG v1.9.04.1 even though TG was only using one core.  Do other users see this activity pattern with the the new version?  Is there something odd about my system that causes TG to behave this way? 

(See my comments in the Support forum thread here: http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3884.0)

nikita, calico,

Thanks for the input.  I have tested with the Minimum threads on the More Settings tab of the Full Render screen set to 0, 1, and 2 as Oshyan asked me to try.  I have also tried rendering with all default settings with similar results.  TG does report detecting two cores at startup.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.  It appears I am to be the problem child.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 29, 2008, 12:27:06 PM
Wait... both cores are maxed and there isn't any speed-up :o
So if CPU isn't the problem, the bottleneck might be elsewhere? Maybe it's memory speed or delay due to swapping?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on April 29, 2008, 12:34:58 PM
Hi Gang
Thanks for the update. I'm really looking forward to testing it out but I'm waiting on my new email address being confirmed by planetside support. I have sent a copy of the key file as proof of id and given my old and new emails. Will this be enough and how long will I need to wait?
Thanks :)
Richard
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 29, 2008, 12:48:10 PM
I have noticed a speed-up when I use 4 as minimum.  Otherwise, when including transparency, it appears to be slower.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 29, 2008, 01:03:50 PM
I tried a clean reinstall of the new version and ran the benchmark three times with a reboot before each run with the following results:

Min Threads = 0 ........ 4:04
                 = 1 ........ 4:10
                 = 2 ........ 4:06

I just noticed that this doesn't mean anything. As long as max threads is 2 or more, TG2 will always use 2 threads. So it's no surprise that changing min threads doesn't affect render times.
What do you get with max threads=1?

I just ran the benchmark here and while it's considerably slower (5:09 vs 4:23 before) when single threaded, using of two threads improves the time to 3:10 and 3:10 vs 5:09 is a good speed-up.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ZStar on April 29, 2008, 02:08:59 PM
I have tried additional tests with my anti-virus apps turned off and saw no change.  Running TG with min/max threads set 1/1 and 2/2 also resulted in no performance change.  I even tested with min/max threads = 1/1 and CPU affinity set to one core.  The result was right in line with all the other tests, just over 4 minutes to render the benchmark.  The previous version of TG would run the benchmark in +/-3:45.

All my tests seem to indicate that regardless of settings, one core is just spinning it's little electronic wheels.  Either that or when both cores are being used they interact in such a way as to exactly cancel out the performance gain of parallel processing. 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on April 29, 2008, 03:19:08 PM
ZStar,

Your Motherboard is the Dell P965 BTX Motherboard using the P965 chipset. Hope that helps?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel   
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ZStar on April 29, 2008, 04:03:24 PM
Cyber-Angel, 

Thanks for the motherboard info.  I don't know if it will help but you never know...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 29, 2008, 04:06:37 PM
@ZStar - My experience in troubleshooting is that 98% of it is something you've overlooked that is fairly obvious.  Please don't feel insulted, since it's hopefully something simple.  If not, then you'll probably need to work closely with Planetside to get your system straight with their troubleshooting procedures...but, I don't work for them, so I don't know.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 29, 2008, 04:16:14 PM
By now I think it's either some power saving scheme turned on or some hardware problem.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on April 29, 2008, 04:46:01 PM
It's hard to know without being on the machine...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: ZStar on April 29, 2008, 05:01:39 PM
calico, nikita,

Thanks again for your input.  I do not feel insulted.  I'll be the first to admit I am not as current on all the OS and hardware bells and whistles as used to be in the old DOS days - that probably dates me.   :D   I figure it probably is something simple - "now, where did Microsoft hide that option in this version?"    ;D

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 29, 2008, 06:41:36 PM
This benchmark render that people have been doing, is that just the default scene? if so I got it in 1 minute 24 seconds.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mr_Lamppost on April 29, 2008, 08:19:10 PM
Huge thanks for the new alpha. Just in time.  ;D ;D ;D

The project that I was working on got pushed over to my laptop to render last night so I could try out the alpha; it was always going to end up there as it was going to take a while.  Admittedly my laptop is not the best; Celeron M 1.5Ghz  but has previously been a respectable second to my desktop PC.  Just before I left the house for work this morning I had a quick look to see how it was getting on and only about 20% of the initial GI pass was complete and most of that is sky.  ??? :(  Panic time because I need this render like soon.  Nothing venturedÖ Started up my desktop, set the same scene rendering only at slightly higher resolution and went out. 

The laptop has been running for 19 1/2 hours and is not even half way through the GI pre pass. The desktop Pentium D 2 Ghz running the new alpha finished the scene in just shy of 6 hours.  ;D ;D ;D  No water but a couple of reflective shaders

Itís official I need a new PC.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 29, 2008, 09:28:46 PM
ZStar,

When you next see CPU usage higher than expected (i.e. when all renders and previews have stopped rendering), can you go to the Processes tab of the task manager, find tgd.exe and look at the value for tgd.exe in the CPU column? I would like to be absolutely sure that we're talking about Terragen using those CPU cycles rather than some other tasks.

If this still happens, can you start TG, don't touch anything, and let the preview finish rendering. Then report much CPU usage there is for tgd.exe.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: digidon on April 30, 2008, 12:06:22 AM
This benchmark render that people have been doing, is that just the default scene? if so I got it in 1 minute 24 seconds.

No, you can find the benchmark at this link.

http://tg2bench.kk3d.de/index.htm
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Drocket on April 30, 2008, 12:33:04 AM
Hi Guys,

I have been using the bench mark scene and playing around with the thread settings but I am getting varying results, anywhere between 1.27s to 2:10s. I wasn't surprised by the differences in time depending on settings but I am also getting some large differences in time when using the same thread settings for the same scene, has anyone else noticed this?

I also noticed, though I think this was reported by Matt, that the memory is not released between renders, at one point I had Terragen using 1.2gb, funny enough that was when I had my fastest times.

I love the new control for navigating the scene :)

I have a Quad core Q6600 running at 2.4ghz, 2 gb ram, Windows XP SP2.

Drocket.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: efflux on April 30, 2008, 12:54:18 AM
This is so cool. MASSIVE improvement with the Mac version. No sluggishness in UI.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Matt on April 30, 2008, 02:33:01 AM
Drocket,

Yes, there is a memory leak somewhere, and that might be causing a lot of these problems. I'm working on it now.

Matt
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on April 30, 2008, 06:43:52 PM
This benchmark render that people have been doing, is that just the default scene? if so I got it in 1 minute 24 seconds.

No, you can find the benchmark at this link.

http://tg2bench.kk3d.de/index.htm

Ah yeah, I found that just after I posted that  ;D I got 1.24
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: echrei on April 30, 2008, 10:18:59 PM
Is there a possibility that you could implement a feature where renders could be resumed after Terragen has been quit? This would help because the renders take a long time and sometimes I have to boot into Windows to use other software. Thanks :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on April 30, 2008, 10:40:37 PM
Is there a possibility that you could implement a feature where renders could be resumed after Terragen has been quit? This would help because the renders take a long time and sometimes I have to boot into Windows to use other software. Thanks :)

Uh? Use the windows version in the first place?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 01, 2008, 02:57:48 AM
Is there a possibility that you could implement a feature where renders could be resumed after Terragen has been quit? This would help because the renders take a long time and sometimes I have to boot into Windows to use other software. Thanks :)
This is a very common feature request but unfortunately a rather difficult one to implement. We will look into the possibilities in the future, but it's definitely not something that will be added soon.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: echrei on May 01, 2008, 03:19:29 AM
Is there a possibility that you could implement a feature where renders could be resumed after Terragen has been quit? This would help because the renders take a long time and sometimes I have to boot into Windows to use other software. Thanks :)

Uh? Use the windows version in the first place?

I only use Windows for Quartus and a few games, wouldn't be practical. Also, I benchmarked and the Windows version rendered slower.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on May 01, 2008, 10:26:36 AM
Ok... then I got another idea. But I really have NO idea if it will work like this, cause I don't have a Mac.
1. Send OSX into hibernation while rendering.
2. Next time, boot Windows, and when your finished doing what you had to do
3. boot osx again and it will start from where it stopped

Alternative: Use a virtual machine. (I got no experience with that kind of stuff either though.)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: efflux on May 05, 2008, 01:47:21 AM
Just tested this latest version under Linux Wine. It works and finds two logical CPUs on my HT machine. Render times are very much slower than on Windows though. Much bigger differentiation than with the last version. I have a Mac though which I usually use with TG2. The new version is obviously much faster on my Twin core 2.0 GHz G5 but it is actually a little slower at rendering than on my Windows 3.0 GHz HT machine. My Mac has caught up but not overtaken my very old PC. This is not very good but both versions are faster anyway and I'm happy with the Mac improvements overall. It's pleasant to use compared to the previous slow UI version.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 05, 2008, 01:56:21 AM
We don't currently differentiate between real and HT "cores"/CPU's, so on HT systems I would suggest only rendering with 1 thread (set maximum threads to 1). I'm not sure if that will help with performance in Linux, but it's generally a good policy anyway.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on May 08, 2008, 01:07:06 AM
Just outa curiosity, will there be more alpha releases to the public before beta? or will the next update be a beta?  personally if you guys still need the time before beta id love another alpha release after you get rid of some more bugs (like the ones RenderMore() ones that occur almost every 10-20 minutes).

Anyways, thanks for the alpha though! It works great, just currently have to save after i do pretty much each step cause it could start crashing at anytime.  but otherwise works beautifully.  its not too hard to open a new window and reload ;) .
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 08, 2008, 02:16:47 AM
Just to clear up any confusion this release is not technically an "alpha" - it's another "Technology Preview"; release 3 to be precise.

We may release another update to registered users prior to the beta to fix some of the memory issues, but the beta is really our next big step and we're working hardest toward that goal.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on May 08, 2008, 03:16:49 AM
Oh ok, thanks.  Well, the tech preview release 3 is now to occupy my time now that finally done with classes ;).  It killed me that you guys released it right before my exams when I had to study but I knew there was new shiny version just waiting for me.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on May 08, 2008, 07:33:46 AM
Just to clear up any confusion this release is not technically an "alpha" - it's another "Technology Preview"; release 3 to be precise.

We may release another update to registered users prior to the beta to fix some of the memory issues, but the beta is really our next big step and we're working hardest toward that goal.

- Oshyan

So, At this point how diffrent is the Beta compared to the TGTP3?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on May 08, 2008, 12:58:09 PM
Oh ok, thanks.  Well, the tech preview release 3 is now to occupy my time now that finally done with classes ;).  It killed me that you guys released it right before my exams when I had to study but I knew there was new shiny version just waiting for me.

My sentiments exactly.  ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 10, 2008, 03:55:57 AM
The beta, when released, will most notably include undo support and enhancements to memory usage (particularly for those with 64 bit OS's and CPU's, or anyone who has turned on the /3GB switch).

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on May 10, 2008, 04:05:34 AM
Awesome, I'm running 64 bit vista ultimate, and I occasionally hit ctrl + z and then realize I have to go in manually and try to re-nudge to where i wanted it. 

Can't wait :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 10, 2008, 04:44:12 AM
I'm running Vista Business x64 and I can tell you that the large address support really makes a huge difference (that and the fixes for the memory leak ;D). Really complex scenes are now much more possible (insane population counts for example), and higher resolution renders should also be much more stable too.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: zionner on May 10, 2008, 07:20:26 AM
Ah, Nice :D

Thanks for the update Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bertrand on May 10, 2008, 03:46:28 PM
That's all very good news. Thanks to the new version, I've fired up Terragen for the first time in months (perhaps years) and find it very enjoyable. Water still takes an insane amount of time to render, even on four cores, but we're clearly getting there. So thanks guys for keeping at it. With the memory leak fixed and 64-bit support (I need to render at quite high res) I honestly can't think of anything vital that would need urgent improvement, apart from my Terragen skills that is...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on May 10, 2008, 06:02:33 PM
With the memory leak fixed and 64-bit support (I need to render at quite high res)
The image is not what's consuming significant amounts of memory.. those are only a few mb in size.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 10, 2008, 06:23:41 PM
Yeah but the higher the resolution the more quads that need to be rendered and therefore the more memory that needs to be used in order to process it all.

Question: Does a large cache affect renders at all. I've got 6mb cache on a 3GHz core 2 duo 45nm processor.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 10, 2008, 09:13:07 PM
Just to be clear, we have not yet moved to a 64bit rendering engine, we are only taking advantage of large address support, so in 64 bit Windows we can use up to 4GB (I think) of memory, even though it's a 32bit app still.

And no I don't think a larger cache will make a significant difference in itself (i.e. given two versions of the same CPU, one with a larger cache, they will perform fairly similarly). But that assumption is not based on much actual testing, it's more a general sense from looking at historical benchmark results for TG and other apps. There are a fairly narrow range of applications that actually do significantly benefit from larger caches.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Jeremy Ray on May 11, 2008, 01:42:33 AM
4 gigs seems low for 64 bit addressing.

How many cpu cores can terragen use?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 11, 2008, 01:48:36 AM
4 gigs is the limit of 32 bit applications when no other limit is imposed by the operating system. In 32 bit Windows a 2GB limit is imposed per application to reserve space for the OS/kernel, but the maximum theoretical addressable space in a 32 bit system is 4GB (total). I'll quote from a handy article Here (http://www.brianmadden.com/content/article/The-4GB-Windows-Memory-Limit-What-does-it-really-mean-):
Quote
By definition, a 32-bit processor uses 32 bits to refer to the location of each byte of memory. 2^32 = 4.2 billion, which means a memory address that's 32 bits long can only refer to 4.2 billion unique locations (i.e. 4 GB).
With a 32 bit app running in a 64 bit OS, the app is still 32 bit so it can only ever address up to 4GB. The OS no longer limits to 2GB, but the app itself is now limited.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on May 11, 2008, 03:30:03 AM
How many cpu cores can terragen use?
16.. but if I had to guess, I'd say this is an arbitrary limitation and that it can be scaled up to any number.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on May 11, 2008, 10:18:52 AM
Just to be clear, we have not yet moved to a 64bit rendering engine, we are only taking advantage of large address support, so in 64 bit Windows we can use up to 4GB (I think) of memory, even though it's a 32bit app still.

If you had a 64-bit OS with 8Gb of RAM, anyone know if that means two instances of TG would both use that full 8Gb of RAM nicely?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on May 11, 2008, 12:01:13 PM
I do be leave that there is a memory address limit for 64bit systems of 128 Gigabytes of RAM which is a significant amount, I am not sure but I think there are some workstations that have that amount of RAM.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel     
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on May 11, 2008, 05:07:54 PM
I do be leave that there is a memory address limit for 64bit systems of 128 Gigabytes of RAM which is a significant amount, I am not sure but I think there are some workstations that have that amount of RAM.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel     

The current limit on windows for physical memory is 128 gigs, but allows for up to 16 terabyes of total memory.  However, 64bit technically allows up to 16 exabytes of ram (mm I'd love a machine with that).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 11, 2008, 06:27:46 PM
The current limit on windows for physical memory is 128 gigs, but allows for up to 16 terabyes of total memory.  However, 64bit technically allows up to 16 exabytes of ram (mm I'd love a machine with that).

Only windows server at the minute
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 11, 2008, 07:00:09 PM
Just to be clear, we have not yet moved to a 64bit rendering engine, we are only taking advantage of large address support, so in 64 bit Windows we can use up to 4GB (I think) of memory, even though it's a 32bit app still.

If you had a 64-bit OS with 8Gb of RAM, anyone know if that means two instances of TG would both use that full 8Gb of RAM nicely?

Yes, that should work fine. :)

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Freak on May 16, 2008, 03:44:46 AM
Just wondering I have not purchased TG2 as yet, I was a little underwhelmed with the TG2TP.
I see that there has likely been a lot of changes since that first public preview.
Including the big one of Multithreading...  At the moment i tend to use WM, TG0.9x and GeoControl...

Is there likely to be another TG2TP anytime soon? At this stage I'm leaning towards Geocontrol2,
over TG2. (based on the techpreview) But perhaps there have been enough changes in the last 12months to
change my mind.

Don't get me wrong i love TG, it just seems the previous techpreview was a very early example,
how much of a comparison can be made to the latest private previews compared to the original techpreview?

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 16, 2008, 05:29:04 AM
Geocontrol 2 and TG2 aren't really comparable products. Geocontrol is a dedicated terrain modeler for *heightfields only* and includes a rather rudimentary renderer. TG2 has only limited heightfield capability but *extremely powerful* procedural terrain modeling capabilities, as well as one of the best terrain-specific rendering engines around. GC2 and TG2 are really complementary products.

As for whether there will be another public tech preview, the only public (free) release we are certain of at this point will be the free version of the final release following the beta for registered users.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on May 16, 2008, 11:32:33 AM
If you're underwhelmed, take a look at the gallery http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 16, 2008, 12:46:44 PM
Nikita, I didn't know you made image of the week.  This honor is well deserved for your work on this image.  Good job!!

If you're underwhelmed, take a look at the gallery http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on May 16, 2008, 03:07:53 PM
Is terragen 2 going to feature a heightfield modifier anytime perhaps in a later update? nothing as complex as geocontrol, but something kinda like .9 where you could paint a little on generated terrains to make it a bit more like you want it after generating random ones?

*edit*
ahh, once I finished post I could've sworn I had read somewhere about future plans with height field painting, and then answered my own question ;)

http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3468.msg35713#msg35713 (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3468.msg35713#msg35713)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: SilverCity on May 22, 2008, 11:33:21 PM
As for whether there will be another public tech preview, the only public (free) release we are certain of at this point will be the free version of the final release following the beta for registered users.

- Oshyan
Sorry if this has been addressed earlier in this thread, but does the latest build include all the features that we will see in the final release, or are you continuing to add new features and controls? In other words, at this point, are you mainly working on bug fixes and optimizing the code prior to a final release?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: old_blaggard on May 23, 2008, 12:05:35 AM
I believe that the program is in a feature freeze until final release, so Planetside will be working exclusively on fixes and optimizations.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on May 25, 2008, 01:04:51 AM
The latest version internally includes basically all of the significant features, however the Technology Preview 3 version registered users are working with is missing some features, most notably the Undo system which will be included in the final.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on May 25, 2008, 11:26:44 AM
the Undo system which will be included in the final.



nice feature !
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Freak on May 26, 2008, 02:23:34 AM
Geocontrol 2 and TG2 aren't really comparable products. Geocontrol is a dedicated terrain modeler for *heightfields only* and includes a rather rudimentary renderer. TG2 has only limited heightfield capability but *extremely powerful* procedural terrain modeling capabilities, as well as one of the best terrain-specific rendering engines around. GC2 and TG2 are really complementary products.

As for whether there will be another public tech preview, the only public (free) release we are certain of at this point will be the free version of the final release following the beta for registered users.

- Oshyan

Thanks, I am aware of the various advantages of both packages, I already own TG0.9 and GeoControl 1.0, as well as WorldMachine1..
I still use TG0.9 for some compositing elements and basics but GeoControl has taken over all my heightfields creation, i rarely render in TG,
as no multithreading means it's just not feasible to do so anymore, the addition of vector sculpting applications means i rarely use TG0.9x these days.

If you're underwhelmed, take a look at the gallery http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/

I render in mainly LW/Modo or 3Delight, so the TG renderer isn't really going to offer me anything in that regard,
And from the original tech preview, I was much more convinced from original Terragen's, features and implementation. (but it was early)
As i said i haven't seen what has improved since the original tech preview, so i guess i will see when the final public test version is, whenever that may be.

Thanks for the replies.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on May 26, 2008, 03:49:34 AM
LOL! we have reaches to 50th page in this thread! ;D
an undo feature would be cool save me having to save every 10 seconds ::)
also as i have said before a wireframe instead of boxs would also be a good feature maybe it could be an on and of option so you could switch between shaded wireframe and boundary box

also i think it would be good idea if there were save render preset option like you have in vue just so you dont need to keep typing in the same info over and over again shouldnt be to hard to do i don't think?
also planetside could do a set of say 5 preset render quality options ranging from LQ to HQ and maybe even SHQ (super high quality!) along with resolution presets
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 26, 2008, 07:26:56 AM
I think these are nice ideas but I also think it isn't really as useful as you think because each scene needs quite specific quality settings. I've never rendered an image using the same rendersettings, in fact they differ quite much.

Martin
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on May 26, 2008, 08:57:18 AM
I think these are nice ideas but I also think it isn't really as useful as you think because each scene needs quite specific quality settings. I've never rendered an image using the same rendersettings, in fact they differ quite much.

Martin

totally agree with you :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on May 26, 2008, 08:39:28 PM
I think these are nice ideas but I also think it isn't really as useful as you think because each scene needs quite specific quality settings. I've never rendered an image using the same rendersettings, in fact they differ quite much.

Martin
there isnt just you and seth though i alway use one setting inpaticular for my final test render just before the big one and it would be nice if i could just select a button and it would have my saved render settings just like in maxwell and vray
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on May 26, 2008, 09:23:45 PM
I think these are nice ideas but I also think it isn't really as useful as you think because each scene needs quite specific quality settings. I've never rendered an image using the same rendersettings, in fact they differ quite much.

Martin
there isnt just you and seth though i alway use one setting inpaticular for my final test render just before the big one and it would be nice if i could just select a button and it would have my saved render settings just like in maxwell and vray

Of course it isn't just seth and me. My argument was also a suggestion at the same time that rendering at the same settings each time won't give the desired result every time and is perhaps also not appropriate for each scene. Perhaps adding a render-preset function is useful then so you can set them up/personalize yourself.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: RArcher on May 26, 2008, 09:33:51 PM
You can also make as many different render nodes as you want and save it as a clip file, then import that into each of your projects.  Pretty much the same as having a preset.  Or just modify the defaults that load when you start TG2 to include your own specific render settings.

Or what I am trying to say is TG already has support for preset render options.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 26, 2008, 10:00:12 PM
I use the clip files as presets frequently and have three defaults that I have for presets.  You can create default presets...like RArcher mentioned - Edit / Preferences / Startup
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on May 26, 2008, 10:01:20 PM

there isnt just you and seth though i alway use one setting inpaticular for my final test render just before the big one and it would be nice if i could just select a button and it would have my saved render settings just like in maxwell and vray

Oo
does that mean that if I don't agree i must keep my mouth shut ?
take a pill dude, relax...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on May 27, 2008, 06:18:45 AM

there isnt just you and seth though i alway use one setting inpaticular for my final test render just before the big one and it would be nice if i could just select a button and it would have my saved render settings just like in maxwell and vray

Oo
does that mean that if I don't agree i must keep my mouth shut ?
take a pill dude, relax...
WTF man >:( i didnt mean it like that. you can say whateva you damn want

anyway im realy starting to get pissed off about the development towards the final of Terragen 2 its nearly the 6th month of this year and by looking at the latest alpha there is still a hell of a long way to go i cant actually render a picture with the new alpha because it always cuts big boxs out of it.
i mean i worked damn hard to buy this software im only 16 years old and only on 12 bux an hour on a dairy farm thats newzealand bux by the way and it aint the easiest job in the world.
and i think its disgraceful that it doesn't even render anything properly >:(

anyway i circled all the parts where this excuses for a renderer missed out anyone else who can see any more chunks that have been ripped out gets a free plant...............
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on May 27, 2008, 07:50:22 AM
Jack, I'd just re-install the older build if I were you!
To f*ck with using the recent build to render anything(as the PS team have stated themselves, without swearing), at least the last build worked.

I was actually seriously considering pre-purchasing this program up until a couple of weeks back(I still may but not for this 'broken' piece of wank, alpha) but, looking around in here, I can feel the frustration of everyone who has, and has updated(downdated?) to the new version. You're right, it IS nearly halfway through the year, wasn't this program scheduled for final release around 1 and 1/2 year ago? Then, six months ago, then the end of the year, then the first 1/4 of THIS year, then... ??? WHEN?
It doesn't bother me that it isn't built yet, I'm a free user after all, it just bothers me that we've been told SO many times that it will be finished by (insert some invented date here) and it never is.

I have sung PS's praises since I begun with TG2, but now, I lose faith rapidly. Do I want to pay this money for a piece of broken(optional, I understand) or unfinished software, no!
Well, I'll dick around with my unregistered version, it's still my favourite landscape program, but, Jeeesus hurry up, I want to buy this!

Fix it, I'm not paying until it's done, I won't be one of these poor users in here who seem to have been taken advantage of for their money!

And, jack, make your own default .tgd's for startup, that way your render settings can be whatever you want them to be, everytime.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on May 27, 2008, 08:00:03 AM
Jack, I'd just re-install the older build if I were you!
To f*ck with using the recent build to render anything(as the PS team have stated themselves, without swearing), at least the last build worked.

I was actually seriously considering pre-purchasing this program up until a couple of weeks back(I still may but not for this 'broken' piece of wank, alpha) but, looking around in here, I can feel the frustration of everyone who has, and has updated(downdated?) to the new version. You're right, it IS nearly halfway through the year, wasn't this program scheduled for final release around 1 and 1/2 year ago? Then, six months ago, then the end of the year, then the first 1/4 of THIS year, then... ??? WHEN?
It doesn't bother me that it isn't built yet, I'm a free user after all, it just bothers me that we've been
told SO many times that it will be finished by (insert some invented date here) and it never is.

I have sung PS's praises since I begun with TG2, but now, I lose faith rapidly. Do I want to pay this money for a piece of broken(optional, I understand) or unfinished software, no!
Well, I'll dick around with my unregistered version, it's still my favourite landscape program, but, Jeeesus hurry up, I want to buy this!

Fix it, I'm not paying until it's done, I won't be one of these poor users in here who seem to have been taken advantage of for their money!

And, jack, make your own default .tgd's for startup, that way your render settings can be whatever you want them to be, everytime.
thats exactly what i did! that piece of shit was of my computer as quick as a Nigerian bride spam advert! but not quick enough because it stuffed all my registry so i couldn't install the older version had to totally whipe my hard drive and start from scratch  boy was i pissed that day :(

i was a loyal supporter of planetside too i kissed there asses and look what i got in return a piece of shit software that doesnt work and a large bruise on my foot from kicking my computer that hard
if i were you i wouldn't even bother wasting your money on deep at the moment >:(
i mean any scene created in the new alpha isnt even compatible with the old build all that shows up is just a white sceen and about 200 error messages >:(
the old build aint to flash either everytime i click to much when im texturing my trees all my computers buttons EVERYTHING stops functioning so in the end im clicking a button or pressing ctrl alt delete and nothing happens i have to restart my pc all over again its not like my system is an Altair 8800! it a high speed gaming rig!!!.
i cant think of another program that phucks around with your pc more than terragen 2 the only thing i can compare it to is probably a worm

i think planetside have got a f*cking cheek releasing the latest build in that sort of state i know matt or whateva his name is said it would be unstable but i didn't expect it to be unusable!!!

if things dont improve soon i think i will give my middle finger up to planetside and head back over to eon along with plants >:(
because frankly i am sick to the back teeth of planetside >:(
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on May 27, 2008, 08:22:55 AM
i mean any scene created in the new alpha isnt even compatible with the old build all that shows up is just a white sceen and about 200 error messages
Check the Background shader's Surface shader in the node view's Object section. Has the colour changed to white?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on May 27, 2008, 08:28:31 AM
i mean any scene created in the new alpha isnt even compatible with the old build all that shows up is just a white sceen and about 200 error messages
Check the Background shader's Surface shader in the node view's Object section. Has the colour changed to white?
nope it just normal the only edition to the scene is 200 fu*cking errors
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on May 27, 2008, 08:36:46 AM
In the previous build, you have to activate shadow casting on the background shader.


Sometimes it seems people get more and more disappointed the better TG2 gets ^^
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on May 27, 2008, 08:43:17 AM
In the previous build, you have to activate shadow casting on the background shader.


Sometimes it seems people get more and more disappointed the better TG2 gets ^^
i wouldn't exactly call the latest build 'better' the transparency isnt that great and takes eons to render, well i dont know what you would call the latest renderer maybe a word best not mentioned. and the multi threading sux it only recognizes 2 of my 4 cores and only 2 of dads 8 core computer >:(

I cant beleive people are being so obtuse about whats actually happening >:(
dandelo's right when you think we have been waiting soooooooooooooo long for this all mighty final build thats supposed to blow ever one away
and look what we have got............. a piece of shit alpha (not even beta!!) 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on May 27, 2008, 09:08:23 AM
The only likely way for these concerns to be addressed is for Planetside to increase the price quite a bit and take on more people, which would be fine by me.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 27, 2008, 09:45:12 AM
Can we not start this argument again? Don't even think we're ten pages from the last time. Yes the alpha has it's problems, not that I've had many of them, but it is an unstable release as planetside have said. Yes the development time is longer than anticipated but that's software development of you, it's a pain in the ass but even the best of companies have this problem. Hell Mafia 2 was delayed for a full 2 years because of financial problems IS were having with their publisher, Splinter Cell was delayed for about 7 months at least because it needed to be completely restarted to change the entire concept so it didn't resemble Assassin's Creed so much.
The only reason that Planetside seem to be taking so long is because they let us in at the beginning of development, which very, very, very, very, very few developers do, normally we look at an upcoming game, think it's cool, then forget about it for a few months. With Terragen most of us are here every day and so the development seems to take a long time. That's all it is, if we were on the outside trust me it wouldn't seem as long.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on May 27, 2008, 09:47:37 AM
The transparency, Jack, looks fantastic I thought, 'not that great' isn't really a fair comment. I think it looks fantastic and I could use that to no end... What doesn't seem too shit hot is the failed multicore renderer, the waste of time spent on UI(who needs a trackball, dockable/multiple windows/etc. or any other new cosmetic update) when there is clearly still LOTS of programming to do in the main? Bells and whistles, I believe, should wait while other more pressing issues are addressed.

All that said, I still have some faith that, in maybe a year or so, PS will have a product worthy of the title 'Second To None'.
The main gripe I think most people are having is that they've pre-paid for a product that should have been here long ago, and what has their money got them? A half decent, nearly stable tech preview 2, and an 'updated' TP3 that appears to work no better, if not worse in many cases.
It is so promising and it will be second to none but, everyone(including PS, I imagine on their part) resents the fact that the final has been promised to the masses so soon, far too early. Their main goal of distributing this product has only been hindered by these announcements as they now have to botch something salvageable(while appearing slightly better than the last builds) to keep the pre-paid public quiet, public who are only relying on the words told to them by the creators.
I am not saying that the team are useless, far from it, the last 'stable' TP BLOWS my mind as to what it can/could do, I use it daily, more than any other program I own actally. I do think, however, that they should have played their cards a little closer to their chest before putting it in black and white that a final product will be available 'soon'. This is bad publicity all round and has/will lose them credit from Joe Public in the long run.

I'm happy to have this TP2 for free. Again though, I won't be pre-paying. I'd like to see what it is I'll actually be buying in the end so, once the Gold release IS ready, consider me first in the queue to download the FREE TRIAL version for evaluation purposes. I hope it will convince me to buy, because I REALLY want to have this, potentialy amazing app, working to it's full ability so that I can work to mine. I won't waste my money though, I've kids to feed, bills to pay etc, as do ALL of the other people who HAVE used their own money for pre-payment. How many bags of groceries could I get for the money? Lol, probably not that many as it is a very reasonable priced app' but, at least I could eat the contents of my shopping bags and get some actual use from them, as opposed to a 'technology preview' of my purchases.

All of the tech' previews, in my mind, should have been released as 'restricted use freeware', there would be NO gripe with that whatsoever, maybe a few folk saying ''Hurry up'' but generaly, people would be grateful all round.

I haven't lost any faith in the teams ability to get this thing good, just some faith in their flippance of statements as to when that will be...

dandelO.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: SilverCity on May 27, 2008, 09:54:10 AM
The only likely way for these concerns to be addressed is for Planetside to increase the price quite a bit and take on more people, which would be fine by me.
Fine by me, as well. I'd gladly pay more for quicker development and a stable final release.

As a tool for hobbyists, T2 is where you'd expect it to be. Some great renders have been created with .09 as well. However, at this point, T2 is still not ready for production work (I know it's still in beta). Render times are too slow, especially for transparency, to be able to make your deadlines. And it seems that the animation tools are not what they should be for a Pro 3D program. That said, for specific types of landscape stills, T2 is the best app out there.

Maybe Planetside needs financial backing from a larger software company. Then Terragen can offer some real competition to Vue. I'm surprised that there hasn't been any other high end vegetation/landscape apps out there, since it seems that no one is happy with what choices we do have.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on May 27, 2008, 10:24:14 AM
anyway i circled all the parts where this excuses for a renderer missed out anyone else who can see any more chunks that have been ripped out gets a free plant...............

Oh Oh Oh... I want a free plant!!
Where there is a small circle, next to the top big circle on the lower right. Under that circle where the peaks (or atleast the part that rendered) meets the sky.

I want a nice bush please...  :P


I can understand your frustration. But to be honest, I haven't had any big render problems or crashes, except for the renderbucketmemoryleak (you gotta love a word like that  :D).
But systems vary, and so do the problems...
And while you have ever single right to be royally pissed off, I kindly ask I you would go easy on the swearing part.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on May 27, 2008, 10:50:15 AM
Before we get too far down the road of it being usable in production, I need to stick up for TG2 a bit here, and it's not arse licking; just making some of you guys realise a plain and simple fact - it is being used in production.

I've been using it on both big flicks and commercials for over a year now, way before multi-threading. TG2 can be so good I've been accused of stitching photos together, and not a single client has questioned the realism of the output, and that's from some seriously scrutinising clients. That includes animated clouds. I can think of large background elements or complete backgrounds for 5 shots that were finalled first time, which is almost unheard of in the vfx industry.

It's really simple: if the job were to involve lots of tree populations in a camera move (a 3D matte painting/environment) I'll run some tests on the trees. No different to using any other app to see if it can do a task required for the job (if you don't then you deserve to have your arse kicked). If the tests fail I'll decline to do the trees, or more likely find a solution for them in another app and integrate them into the TG2 render (let's face it, it can be done, there's little excuse with the lwo output for 3D masking at least).
No offence to anyone, but you need to realise it is being used in deepest darkest anger, on the caveat that it may take a while and if you're prepared to take a little risk. I don't have a massive render farm nor normal access to one.  Most of the time, though, I've managed to turn the job around far more quickly than the other routes available, and therefore far cheaper to the client.

Problem solving is 90% of CGI, and I suggest you try thinking out of the box a bit and don't expect the s/w to be completely reliable or do everything you want it to (haven't used a single app yet in 21 years that works flawlessly - it can always break somehow, even if it cost £40,000 at the time). If you expect any software to be completely reliable, 100%, you'll be disappointed, and that includes the kind of s/w that can kill people if it fails.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: cyphyr on May 27, 2008, 10:53:48 AM
Absolutely, well said :)
Richard
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on May 27, 2008, 11:08:21 AM
What doesn't seem too shit hot is the failed multicore renderer, the waste of time spent on UI(who needs a trackball, dockable/multiple windows/etc. or any other new cosmetic update)
I think the GUI improvements are important. Better, more intuitive camera controls in particular has been one of the first and frequently voiced request. I don't think multicore support has failed either. It's working well. Sometimes not all cores are detected, but this is a really minor error that's probably fixed already.

In general, TG2 is already extremely flexible and the images in the gallery (except mine if you will) show what can be done with it. Just because oneself can't do it, doesn't mean that it can't be done and that it'd be software's fault.

However, I think it's legitimate to keep complaining as the delay is still there and some features haven't made it into the program. For example: If you bought the animation edition, you paid $100 more for pretty much nothing (yet).
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: SilverCity on May 27, 2008, 11:13:47 AM
Before we get too far down the road of it being usable in production, I need to stick up for TG2 a bit here, and it's not arse licking; just making some of you guys realise a plain and simple fact - it is being used in production.
JimB, thanks for your response. I hadn't realized T2 was being used at all in commercial productions. I stand corrected. I have never been able to get render times down enough, for me to take a chance on a paying job. Maybe I don't know the app well enough to make it work, yet. Once the multi threading situation is worked out, I'll give it another go.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 27, 2008, 11:44:35 AM
TG2's been used on lots of films at tv shows. Star trek nemesis is the one on the main planetside website, lots of people have rumoured that it was used on the Golden Compass too
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on May 27, 2008, 11:50:30 AM
Star trek nemesis is the one on the main planetside website, lots of people have rumoured that it was used on the Golden Compass too
It's not a rumour, I used it for a good chunk of the environment surrounding the Gyptian camp. There's also a complete sky in Rome season 2  ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 27, 2008, 01:02:44 PM
Planetside didn't let us in at the beginning of TG2.

...they let us in at the beginning of development...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 27, 2008, 01:05:57 PM
It will cost more money then, than it does now to buy the final. 

...I'd like to see what it is I'll actually be buying in the end so, once the Gold release IS ready, consider me first in the queue to download the FREE TRIAL version for evaluation purposes. I hope it will convince me to buy, because I REALLY want to have this, potentialy amazing app, working to it's full ability so that I can work to mine. I won't waste my money though...
dandelO.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on May 27, 2008, 01:34:02 PM
But if I pay now, I'm not getting the final for... maybe quite some time apparently.
That it's cost you at all, calico, is the problem. It has cost YOU money for this wait.

As for letting everyone in on the developement, I don't think anyone should have been, barring alpha testers. The general public would have had less cause to complain. A free and limited preview would have done great and everyone would have been happy with any update that was ready to come out, instead of a rushed job released, pretty much on demand to keep the disgruntled pre-paid users quiet for a week or two.
It must drive Matt/Jo/Oshyan nuts, 'give us transparency', 'give us multithreading', 'give us an update', etc. everyday on the forums. And the logical thing to do, is to release an update to keep the masses from complaining.
This just slows down final developement in the long run though because, more demands need to be met to get working updates(essentially temporary fixes) out to the people.
I'm glad it's not me trying to complete the task!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 27, 2008, 01:44:52 PM
Well then by your logic, which I like by the way, if people stop complaining so often the team will be able to concentrate on getting the work done right, hell the latest update could've had a lot less problems if they'd debugged it for another week but then where would that leave the whiney public? More to whine about I guess.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: SilverCity on May 27, 2008, 01:55:39 PM
It's Catch-22, from the developers viewpoint. If they accept $ for a pre-release product, which finances their efforts, then they can expect to hear people complain. If they only release a free product, maybe they'll get less complaints, but then they won't have any income while they work on T2. It's tough either way. Ultimately, all we can do is be patient and wait until it's done.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 27, 2008, 02:24:30 PM
Being a programmer and having been in IT technology for awhile, this was seen as a good opportunity to learn, as well as play with some revolutionary software.

To pay the amount I did, this meant knowing this time would be the way it is.  I wasn't deceived.  I paid to get the final ahead of time and to participate until the final came out, but this was without further obligation.  I don't have to post here or read the complaints, I don't have to use the software, and I can wait until it's primetime.  If I wanted to wait and get the golden product without doing a thing, then I could and I bet some have.

So, it doesn't make sense to me to "wait and see".  You'll pay more money, but that seems precocious to think that you'll save money that way and somehow avoid Planetside from giving us a poor product.  Planetside has every reason to complete this software and every reason to do well. 

Maybe you should reconsider your strategy.  For your own pocketbook's sake...



But if I pay now, I'm not getting the final for... maybe quite some time apparently.
That it's cost you at all, calico, is the problem. It has cost YOU money for this wait.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on May 27, 2008, 02:41:34 PM
If you pay, the develoment would go a bit faster because they have more resources.
If you pay now, you only loose $200, if you buy it when finished you pay $600 or more (just a guess ofcourse).

If you wait, you loose time to practise, and you'll loose more money than now.
It's an investment... a lot of companies with some marketing insight would like an offer like this.


But it's your choise, I just gave the facts, not an opinion.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on May 27, 2008, 03:17:21 PM
Terragen, like any other software product in the market at the end of the day will succeed or fail by its industry and consumer reputation, end of story. To that end then TG2 which is aimed as been a commercial application must deal with the demands of its market place, and be seen to innovate and adapt to the needs of the market it serves.

Planetside, then, like any other business entity have to engage on two fronts with their competitors and their customers and if they had them their eco system and channel partners; this balance is difficult but must be achieved in order to stay in business. In business a company must show that there is growth potential in its market segment in order to give its customers confidence in both the company and its product, which brings in increased revenue streams.

There seems to be a lot of blue sky thinking about at the moment as to what TG2 should morph into, why I say to most of it is run that idea up the flag pole and see who salutes it: we need people round these here parts with can do attitudes and not a bunch of girls how pitch a fit every five minutes, to put it mildly "Bad Show all round, old boy.).

I think we a fortunate indeed, to have what we have right now; I do not mind waiting as long as I know (Once in a while) what's going on but not at the expense of getting the work done on TG2 to quote Paul, Sr (OCC) "What was, was and what is, is, and what is...is what's happening right now".

its a simple equation people: Bad Products, leads to a bad reputation, a bad reputation leads to loss of revenue which leads to hanging an "out of business sign on the door and filing for bankruptcy.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  ;D         

               
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: arisdemos on May 27, 2008, 07:18:02 PM
I personally really love that a significant number of tg2 fans have enough funding to invest in the beta software, and by their work/statements  (good or bad) let all us poverty stricken louts who are in the majority know for free the graphic potential and technical details of the tg2 development. I have to justify the relatively extreme expenditure of $200 bucks for any software by some comercial return criteria. To tell the truth even though a couple of pre-pay artists can cite graphic pay dirt and at least several alph/beta users have created laudable and commercially credible images, I still remain unconvinced that in my creative world I can make money with the contemporary tg2 computer graphics tool.

TG2 has kept my interest for about two years now and I will continue to watch Planetside's admirable progress without complaint, and of course always down load their try outs. To certain pre-paid users who are a little to full of their brown nosed selves, money remains what talks and BS walks. The temptation to compete for technical and graphic "honors" among the elite investor crowd here just doesn't get me hot enough to leave my monthly gasoline addiction 200 dollars short. Maybe when I hear that the software is not driving the more pennywise pound conscious pre-payers nuts and the commercial level artwork is flowing a little more copiously, only then if I can say that I have the needed TG2 functions in my grasp, I might consider laying down a reasonable bet on this software. 

Arisdemos
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on May 27, 2008, 07:23:39 PM
I'm understand, calico, but I really don't consider it a strategy I'd question myself on, hanging off until the final, I mean.
Yup, it'll be more expensive but it'll be titled 'finished' Sure, I'd like £100 pounds to upgrade, it's a fine price but, not really high priority for me, that 100 would be better off in my electricity meter so I could run my pc and use TP2 in the meantime.

It's the app for me, I know it, nothing comes close and no other program I've used is so pefectly logical to use. I have no problem with the waiting either, that's my point. I'm a happy bunny to have this program at all, I'm sure most folk would be happy to be GIVEN TP2 with it's limited functionability.
 
There's two sides to every coin though, it's great that people have used TG2 registered, to some truly amazing end, both commercially and personally, that would not have been possible without the pre-pay option.
And of course, PS have to keep the pennies rolling in somehow, it's just, it sounds a little backwards to do it this way. 'Buy this item! Only... It's not been made yet. Worry not, the money from your purchase will be used to make it for you, please wait...'

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on May 27, 2008, 07:27:30 PM
Quote
Arisdemos

And, TG2TP2 free, is more than capable of extremely realistic work as it is.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 27, 2008, 07:44:02 PM
Indeed it is, in fact it can create the same thing in terms of realism as the latest alpha released for pre-releasers. The benefit of paying upfront is more about the removal of restrictions and the free upgrades when they do come. An aris, no one said that you had to buy it, in fact there are fewer things I care less about, but don't go calling people brown nosed, it just ain't polite.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on May 27, 2008, 08:15:13 PM
edited - rose to the bait...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: dandelO on May 27, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
I think he just meant 'funds', JimB. i.e. 'I don't have the funds to buy it, whereas others do'.
Anyone's opinions on brown nosing etc. though, can be kept to themselves as far as I'm concerned, no one should be here to bitch over one another.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: FrankB on May 27, 2008, 09:30:17 PM
I may not be perfectly qualified to make comments in this thread, but I've been reading this thread every now and then, and I'm amazed at how it would just not stop growing ;-)
However, the last 2 pages of the discussion though made me think that the "200 bucks paid" game card does not really weigh as heavy in the business space as some seem to think (in the private use / hobbyist space it's a little different).
But 200 bucks in SW investment in business - come on! That would even pay for itself if TG2 was just doing the best ....fake stones in the world. and nothing else. :D
As JimB wrote: if it gets stuff done well, so that a client buys the first shot....200 bucks, COME ON!  ;D

Frank

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 27, 2008, 10:14:27 PM
Yep. think how much those shots in the Golden Compass must be worth. Large companies that use Terragen in production have massive render farms for these kinds of things. Remember Transformers? One of the shots of bumblebee on that platform being shocked with those...whatever they were, took 4 days to render each frame, Shrek 2 had a similar render time on one of the scenes in shreks house.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on May 27, 2008, 10:24:55 PM
The elements on Golden Compass were rendered on two quad cores and my laptop. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't have a massive render farm. Animation was done by rendering the elements in XSI. I have done fully animated clouds since though, but not rendered on a big render farm again.

Don't assume anything about VFX, especially some things you read in the press.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: SilverCity on May 27, 2008, 10:50:37 PM
I'm somewhat new to the Terragen community, so this may have been mentioned before. One thing that may help to sell T2 is a book or DVD manual/tutorial that would show how to best use the software. While the user base helps out with file sharing and various webstites, there should be at least one book/DVD that would consolidate the finer points of T2. Something like the books for Blender. Or the Geekatplay videos. Terragen 0.9 was easier for me to understand than this node based editor in T2. I'm sure a lot of people would have more confidence in purchasing, if they knew how to use this latest version of Terragen.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 27, 2008, 10:51:10 PM
Maybe you don't Jim but you're not the only CGI designer in the world. In fact Dreamworks have a reported 1000 processors in their own render farm, and they do some pretty neat films.
I'm somewhat new to the Terragen community, so this may have been mentioned before. One thing that may help to sell T2 is a book or DVD manual/tutorial that would show how to best use the software. While the user base helps out with file sharing and various webstites, there should be at least one book/DVD that would consolidate the finer points of T2. Something like the books for Blender. Or the Geekatplay videos. Terragen 0.9 was easier for me to understand than this node based editor in T2. I'm sure a lot of people would have more confidence in purchasing, if they knew how to use this latest version of Terragen.
Indeed, the function nodes in particular need a little explaining, along with some of the more obscure shaders like the Lambert shader. If we could find a willing publisher then we may even be able to get members of the Terragen community to contribute what they know. Cos let's face it, the developers ain't got the spare time to go about writing books.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on May 28, 2008, 04:04:13 AM
hey guys i want to say sorry to planetside and others i shouldn't of said all that stuff especially with the 'sentence enhancements'
i was just really annoyed about my latest render it took 50 hours for nothing really i mean what a waste of power :(
after reading the last couple of pages i have now decided i will zip my mouth about the delay and let PS get on with there job i would rather have them take ages and come up with a software that will rock the 3d world to its core rather than release it now and be full of bugs and errors (like the latest alpha!!!)

anyway i watched stealth the other week (at last) and i must say the graphics where amazing and you could so tell it was terragen! any other software could not produce those sort of results!!
and remember terragen was used in house as i pointed out a couple of weeks ago!!!

I think when terragen is released it will totally revolutionize the 3d world especially matte painting!
i have been doing matte art since i was a kid and its one of the most hardest things to do!
now with terragen out it makes it sooooo  much easier with a lot better results :)
i think terragen 2 alongside with cityengine and photoshop will dominate and completely change how matte artists work ;)
p.s
oh and mowhawk that free plant thing was a joke ;D
i am planning to release a pack of 3 bushes soon though ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on May 28, 2008, 04:55:13 AM
I think that more and more you are going to see convergence in software technologies to the degree that you may see software in future that is a complete production suite in one package, this would take you from early preproduction and concept development, through principle photography, post production which would cover FX work , Editing, colour grading and matching and compositing all the way to final print.

If you think about convergence where different technologies are brought together in a single device, this has happened with cell phone technology which allow you to do more then make phone calls these abilities include but are not limited to: Internet Browsing, MP3 Playing and Digital Photography and Video among other things, this could well happen with software so people aren't wasting time opening different software titles so they can get their work done.

Studies have shown that opening having to go between different software is distracting and takes between 25-30 minutes to regain concentration given the mean average time, take this time over an organization  over a quarter as time waisted, and seen form that view point as lost revenue then factor that by what that means across a nation it dose have an affect on GDP.

What would be nice is if you could have every thing you needed to do your job in a single application without having to open multiple applications, with the deleterious effect they have over time on productivity with a great potential for employee down time as a result: a single software title that worked for all sectors and market segments that was modular in design so you get what you want your software to be, and not tools you have no use for as they are specific to certain types of industry only.

This software would have a number of options about how it would brought, these include physical media for retail stores, internet download and hosted (Software as service) these would suit different class of costumer.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  ;D
                     
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: arisdemos on May 28, 2008, 05:08:40 AM
Well now PG I didn't name any noses as proctologically image mapped, and so if the shoe or whatever doesn't fit don't put it on. As to my being more polite I believe that what goes around comes around, and an unlevel playing field instills little civility and even less respect. Polite is nice, but a shism does exist within this forum, between the potential buyer with limited TG2 power/function and the pre-paid users who are the active customers, and often think  or act (as the saying goes) as though they are always right. The truth is that maybe the graphics person who waits to make his buy is meanwhile creating within his own sphere works that are in the professional sense above and beyond what is generally seen on this forum.  It is not polite nor fair for some fool with more money than brains to tell someone who does not own TG2 to create/compete at a disadvantage or ("get off the pot") shut up. 

The real case I was trying to make was that pre-paid users lickspittle or not are the minority market potential. It's the nameless masses who's pictures will probably never gain any standing in this little forum tea party who are the ones that ultimatly will render this software company the financial success it seeks. If this real market does not learn to use and like Terragen 2 without risking their capitol blindly during  hard economic times, then Planetside better invest the monies of its pre-payers very very wisely. Of course if you can find enough of such people (those who think 200 dollars isn't much to fret about in the larger scheme of things), maybe P. T. Barnum was right on.

The only hold this or any other software has on me is how well I can use it during the creative process. I have stopped using TG2 right now and for the time being will observe the efforts of the pre-paid users to judge the state of the programs progress. Some of what I see so far stimulates me, but without hands on performance other people's work will probably never move me to buy. I will wait for a while longer to see if Planetside decides to once again open the presently closed circle of what I consider its most functional learning curve, a free leading edge TG2 release of limited function. If this doesn't occur until the price become prohibitive, then TG2 it was very nice meeting you.

Arisdemos 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 28, 2008, 12:22:26 PM
I understand some people might not be able to afford $200.  But, those aren't the people in the graphic arts industry.


Well now PG I didn't name any noses as proctologically image mapped, and so if the shoe or whatever doesn't fit don't put it on. As to my being more polite I believe that what goes around comes around, and an unlevel playing field instills little civility and even less respect. Polite is nice, but a shism does exist within this forum, between the potential buyer with limited TG2 power/function and the pre-paid users who are the active customers, and often think  or act (as the saying goes) as though they are always right. The truth is that maybe the graphics person who waits to make his buy is meanwhile creating within his own sphere works that are in the professional sense above and beyond what is generally seen on this forum.  It is not polite nor fair for some fool with more money than brains to tell someone who does not own TG2 to create/compete at a disadvantage or ("get off the pot") shut up. 

The real case I was trying to make was that pre-paid users lickspittle or not are the minority market potential. It's the nameless masses who's pictures will probably never gain any standing in this little forum tea party who are the ones that ultimatly will render this software company the financial success it seeks. If this real market does not learn to use and like Terragen 2 without risking their capitol blindly during  hard economic times, then Planetside better invest the monies of its pre-payers very very wisely. Of course if you can find enough of such people (those who think 200 dollars isn't much to fret about in the larger scheme of things), maybe P. T. Barnum was right on.

The only hold this or any other software has on me is how well I can use it during the creative process. I have stopped using TG2 right now and for the time being will observe the efforts of the pre-paid users to judge the state of the programs progress. Some of what I see so far stimulates me, but without hands on performance other people's work will probably never move me to buy. I will wait for a while longer to see if Planetside decides to once again open the presently closed circle of what I consider its most functional learning curve, a free leading edge TG2 release of limited function. If this doesn't occur until the price become prohibitive, then TG2 it was very nice meeting you.

Arisdemos 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 28, 2008, 01:18:51 PM
Yeah and saying that those people have more money than brains, while being completely stupid because I have absolutely no money whatsoever and could barely afford food this week, is again being deliberately mean to people who have done nothing other than like this product so how about you grow up, let people buy what they want with their money and for the love of God stop insulting people who've done nothing to you.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bertrand on May 28, 2008, 02:38:54 PM
Am I living on planet Mars if I think that anyone who's able to afford the kind hardware needed to use TG2 should also be able to fork out $200 on software? This doesn't seem like such a wild assumption, does it? Or is the subjective value we put on software so low...?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 28, 2008, 03:02:41 PM
Bertrand, it's all relative.  What's important to someone?  If it isn't important, something else must be.

As far as hardware requirements, I have found that a pretty low end computer worth about $500 can run TG2 just fine...before this recent Alpha came out.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on May 28, 2008, 03:12:15 PM
Am I living on planet Mars if I think that anyone who's able to afford the kind hardware needed to use TG2 should also be able to fork out $200 on software?

mmmh i have an old computer (that i paid in several times)and it took me a while to have the money to pre-pay TG2... i have low money job and two kids... some people just have priority...
but, if your job is CG, $200 doesn't seem to be a lot of money because your priority will be to have good software and some are reaaaally more expensive than TG2 :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bertrand on May 28, 2008, 03:20:48 PM
Fair enough, Calico, Seth.
I don't have millions in the bank and my job isn't CG so I can put myself in just everybody's shoes.
Then again, nobody who thinks they can't afford 200 bucks on software - be if for good reasons - can complain if they don't fall into Planetside's customer target group. I was at an event with the boss of Autodesk the other day. Some guy from the local chamber of architects complained about the company's policy of offering expensive, non-backward-compatible upgrades on a yearly basis. The answer was that perhaps architects should start running their business in ways that let them afford good tools. In other words, if you can't afford my software than I won't have an interest in having you as a customer. I have my problems with Autodesk, mainly the anti-competitive acquisition policy, but I kind of see his point. This is why even small, young companies like NextLimit, Chaosgroup or Feversoft all charge $1000 for their beta versions - because the people who matter to them will buy it at this price and selling it cheaper to a larger client base (namely hobbyists like you and me) does not make business sense to them.
So the guys without the $200 can complain all they like, but chances are Planetside won't give a dime because they're not looking to these guys as their future client base. They're just not part of the equation...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 28, 2008, 03:23:06 PM
I will add along with Seth that it took me awhile to save up the money, once I realized it would be possible to try TG2.  I just have never seen software like this and am glad I got it.

[edit - I agree with your insight, Bertrand.  Software is too expensive, I think, but it's relative to the customer base.  As far as TG2, I have no idea what that base is.  Perhaps Planetside can give us a little insight about that.]
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: bertrand on May 28, 2008, 03:32:47 PM
Having said that, I don't think Planetside's problem is whether they charge too much or too little. Their problem is that they obviously did not develop TG2 as a multithreaded applications and when they tried to make it so realised they had to rewrite the entire code from scratch. At least that's the way it looks from where I stand.
Right now I'm sure the pricing of the future, stable product is the least of their concern ;-)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: arisdemos on May 28, 2008, 06:29:07 PM
Back @ you PG. For the love of whatever god you are referring to, if you can't see what is missing or between the lines on this forum at least read correctly what is before your eyes in black and white. Any muck I have slung during my communications backstroke to you was concisely targeted toward one fellow barbslinger whom I consider a piece of uncomfortable furniture on this site. I do regret if you or any others have taken my "more money than brains" comment to heart. I am not telling you or anyone else how to run your life or finances, but you automatically stereotype me as feeding with the church mice because I hunger for a little website equity and a maybe a bargain in Planetside's basement.

I do try to watch my manners while in your world of "nice," but remember that with us savages sometime sticking one's tongue out at a stranger could be just a friendly greeting. If you could think outside your buns you might even realize that the source of you irritation in this matter may have spent a little too much time in the grown up mode. We all are sharing the TG2 cup some in gulps and some in sips. I may not have as much time as you, so to you and all concerned don't pinch my straw and I won't muddy the water.

Arisdemos
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on May 28, 2008, 07:01:43 PM
If the price was changed, it'd probably go upwards to compensate for the weak dollar. I assume it will affect the inal pricing too.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: lightning on May 28, 2008, 08:24:27 PM
i don't have much money at all i spent about $1000 on a new computer and $125 on terragen deep
but you must remember i don't have a family to feed or bills o pay :)

anyway i think if planetside realy want to succeed i think they realy need to look into plugins to intergrate terragen with the big 3 maya max and xsi. I think this would realy appeal to graphic artist well it would for me anyway!
such as an atmosphere plugin like eons ozone
of coarse planetside will have to get the base terragen finished first before they start looking into this
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on May 28, 2008, 10:04:48 PM
If you compare IQ value with single dollars, most of us have more money than brains  ??? ;) :P

I registered TG 0.9 back in the old days, and so I got 99 bucks of the TG2 price, so I chose Deep+Animation... I live at home with my parents, and I gradually upgrade my pc's Ä200,- at a time (which buys me a new mobo and cpu from the lower regeions of the performance ladder).

I think a lot of people have pre-purchased, a lot of which are 3D developers and the like. They just don't show themselves here, because they're to busy working. So I don't think we are Elite or someting, but we are hapy with the advantages.
However, we're not too chep minded to keep it to ourselves! We share all that we find with everyone in this community. That's how we learn, that's how we grow, that's how we help eachother.

Don't go freaking out if you cant afford it, but enjoy what you cŠn do, and wait for the future possibilities. Or just leave it be, but it makes no sense complaining about something you can't change anyways.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on May 28, 2008, 10:25:15 PM
Quote
anyway i think if planetside realy want to succeed i think they realy need to look into plugins to intergrate terragen with the big 3 maya max and xsi.

that would be great for TG2 !
even if i don't even know how to use those software ;D

Quote
I think a lot of people have pre-purchased, a lot of which are 3D developers and the like. They just don't show themselves here, because they're to busy working. So I don't think we are Elite or someting, but we are hapy with the advantages.

yep !!!
Do anyone know some works real elite user of Terragen that we could look at ?
I really would like to know what a professionnal can do with it...  :-\
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 28, 2008, 11:31:06 PM
Luc Bianco? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Muied Lumens on May 29, 2008, 12:09:47 AM
Whereas the price may be a little steep for me as a hobby user who can't even use TG2 properly, I must say that I am extremely tempted to buy it anyway once I can afford it!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Cyber-Angel on May 29, 2008, 01:05:06 AM
Its funny how the price of TG2 is been discussed even though it hasn't been set yet, its also funny how its presumed that it is going to be horrendously expensive when it is released. Yes, granted that the price will be raised some when its released but this is old news that has been stated on these forums many times before, so we've been there done that and seen the motion picture already.

TG2 will either succeed or fail by how interoperable it is with existing pipelines and asset creation software as you would need to import TG2 scene data (Seamlessly) into other 3D tools for use there so you get shadow matching and so on.

Planetside and I will say this for the last time, are a business and not a charitable institution and with that in mind they will charge what they need to when TG2 goes gold to recoup their development investment and also what the market is ready to pay, this will depend greatly on the intended market segment.

If people really have a problem with the way a software company or the industry in general, then please go set up your own or check you self into a psychiatric hospital which ever is the easiest, and leave other people alone its simple as people.

 ;D

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel                 
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on May 29, 2008, 01:15:43 AM
Do anyone know some works real elite user of Terragen that we could look at ?
I really would like to know what a professionnal can do with it...  :-\

I think njen is a proffesional in the industry though I don't think he would call himself an "elite".  ;) He does some fantasic work.

...then, as was mentioned, there is always Luc.   :)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on May 29, 2008, 02:02:00 AM
...then, as was mentioned, there is always Luc.   :)

Who may not be "elite" but is (how shall I put this), a genius on stilts.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: plugsnpixels on May 29, 2008, 07:29:12 AM
This was an interesting post that didn't get much response, but I have to agree about the benefits of the integration of functionality in an application.

I have been using an integrated 2D graphics application called Canvas since about 1996. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACD_Canvas) and here (http://www.plugsandpixels.com/canvangelist) for more info.

Unlike the Adobe CS3 suite where you have compatible but separate applications (like linked hotel rooms), Canvas is more like a huge presidential suite. You don't have to leave the page to do image editing, page layout, vector illustration, web design, etc. It's a proven concept that no one else has run with (Adobe, Corel, Stone, etc.), though they borrow features from Canvas.

This type of integration might be too much for 3D and video apps, but maybe not, given the power of modern hardware.

The good news is, Canvas 11 is currently available for Windows only. The bad news is, ACD (makers of the ACDSee line of image browsers) killed off the Mac version (Canvas X) in April and aren't on the ball with active development of Canvas 11. So my point is not to push Canvas per se, but to agree with the benefits of working in an integrated environment--which will really spoil you.
______________

I think that more and more you are going to see convergence in software technologies to the degree that you may see software in future that is a complete production suite in one package, this would take you from early preproduction and concept development, through principle photography, post production which would cover FX work , Editing, colour grading and matching and compositing all the way to final print.

If you think about convergence where different technologies are brought together in a single device, this has happened with cell phone technology which allow you to do more then make phone calls these abilities include but are not limited to: Internet Browsing, MP3 Playing and Digital Photography and Video among other things, this could well happen with software so people aren't wasting time opening different software titles so they can get their work done.

Studies have shown that opening having to go between different software is distracting and takes between 25-30 minutes to regain concentration given the mean average time, take this time over an organization  over a quarter as time waisted, and seen form that view point as lost revenue then factor that by what that means across a nation it dose have an affect on GDP.

What would be nice is if you could have every thing you needed to do your job in a single application without having to open multiple applications, with the deleterious effect they have over time on productivity with a great potential for employee down time as a result: a single software title that worked for all sectors and market segments that was modular in design so you get what you want your software to be, and not tools you have no use for as they are specific to certain types of industry only.

This software would have a number of options about how it would brought, these include physical media for retail stores, internet download and hosted (Software as service) these would suit different class of costumer.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel  ;D
                     
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on May 29, 2008, 12:29:04 PM
Thanks plugsnpixels.  I'm looking into it...Canvas, I mean.   :D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on June 04, 2008, 11:26:25 PM
Any news on the development?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on June 06, 2008, 05:18:20 AM
We are currently conducting internal testing on an updated version with the intent of releasing a new Technology Preview or the beta in the near future. The next release will fix the memory leak among many other things.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mandrake on June 06, 2008, 01:01:10 PM
yes!!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: darthvader on June 06, 2008, 09:20:04 PM
WOOT!!! the memory leak is the most frustration thing for me at this point and I'll be happy to be rid of it!
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on June 06, 2008, 10:06:33 PM
WOOT!!! the memory leak is the most frustration thing for me at this point and I'll be happy to be rid of it!

Agree. It's the only reason I don't use Terragen at the moment. Been waiting for a fix for it.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on June 07, 2008, 03:35:11 PM
WOOT!!! the memory leak is the most frustration thing for me at this point and I'll be happy to be rid of it!

Agree. It's the only reason I don't use Terragen at the moment. Been waiting for a fix for it.

Why? You can use the previous version for design and the latest for rendering, no problem...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on June 07, 2008, 04:31:31 PM
WOOT!!! the memory leak is the most frustration thing for me at this point and I'll be happy to be rid of it!

Agree. It's the only reason I don't use Terragen at the moment. Been waiting for a fix for it.

Why? You can use the previous version for design and the latest for rendering, no problem...

I know. I just decided to wait for a update instead. Besides..... I don't want to install and uninstall the two versions all the time.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: mogn on June 08, 2008, 03:40:36 AM
No need to install and uninstall. You can run both, if installed in different directories.

Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on June 08, 2008, 02:58:57 PM
@mogn - Which one is which?  ^^
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on June 08, 2008, 03:05:02 PM
The one that reports 0 micro-triangles is the alpha.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Mohawk20 on June 08, 2008, 09:50:06 PM
The one that reports 0 micro-triangles is the alpha.

Which has also the faster rendertime...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on June 08, 2008, 10:16:09 PM
...which also has the better light range.   ;D
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on June 09, 2008, 05:28:08 AM
do i see the horizon bug ?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Oshyan on June 10, 2008, 04:35:23 AM
do i see the horizon bug ?
The reporting of rendered microtriangles will be working in the next release. The "horizon bug" is fixed in TP3 - what you're seeing are sun rays in the distance.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Seth on June 10, 2008, 02:58:50 PM
Luc Bianco? ;D ;D

last one from Luc Bianco : http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD845.jpg

Oo enjoy buddies... enjoy...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: RedSquare on June 12, 2008, 11:24:50 PM
Stone me, I had to do a double take reading this thread.  I thought I had stumbled into Daz3D Hexagon forum by mistake and yes I have put my money where my mouth is, the latter being as always, firmly shut.   ;) TG Deep+Animation.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nvseal on June 14, 2008, 04:01:48 AM
Luc Bianco? ;D ;D

last one from Luc Bianco : http://lucbianco.free.fr/2bgal/img/T2_2008/TGD845.jpg

Oo enjoy buddies... enjoy...

Wow, I wish I was able to squeeze results like that out of TG 2.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on June 23, 2008, 05:41:41 PM
any news on a tp4 or beta? I don't care if it doesn't fix anything but the memory leak, just a patch to that would make me quite happy.  most annoying thing right now when trying to do stuff in tp3 (but i still dont wanna go back to tp2 cause then i dont get multiple cores... right now the multicore render kinda makes up for the constant crashes)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Kevin F on June 23, 2008, 06:34:47 PM
any news on a tp4 or beta? I don't care if it doesn't fix anything but the memory leak, just a patch to that would make me quite happy...... 

I agree, it's about time we had a fix for this issue.
What I don't understand is when Matt announced the Jan 4th release back in December last year, Planetside must have known about the memory leak and other problems (and if not why not).
So why are we still waiting?
One forced (by users) update to TP3 is not good enough. The problem reported last Jan 4th which would take " a few weeks" has now taken nearly 6 months, and still no word from Planetside. Not even a progress report, despite repeated requests for such by users. OK so Oshyan has mentioned that certain issues have been fixed but this has only been as part of some other post and with no indication of when an update or God forbid an actual beta will be available.
Yet again, come on Planetside get your act together.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on June 23, 2008, 07:28:36 PM
I haven't responded in this thread for a while and as far as I can remember I have never complained about PS's strategy and promises, but now when I see some reflections of my thoughts I felt I had to jump in as well...

I completely agree with KevnF about the memoryleak.
TP3 was known to be tested by a group of alpha-testers before its release. I can't imagine the memoryleak hasn't been noticed by these experienced users.
At least, I think that's what the group of alpha-testers consists of?

I also agree about the "a few weeks" issue stated by Kevin. It's nearly 6 months later and I remember a post from Matt a couple of weeks ago that the beta would be available "in a couple of weeks".

It has taken way long enough and also features like SSS have been post-poned so the end-product already differs from the roadmap.

An idea I had sometime is why doesn't Planetside look for an extra developer/programmer to join the team? It could/would speed-up the process pretty much and yes I know employees are expensive but a sooner release would probably have payed back itself pretty quick?
I also have the feeling sometimes that Planetside beside DD, with their vast knowledge of terrain-visualisation, is also busy in the 'consultancy' field and if so that that extra work holds up the development?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Revenant on June 23, 2008, 08:32:12 PM
yeah,

release the damn fix for the memory leak, couldn't be so hard. or do you like to fu.. your customers?

Hard words, but i think they are needed now.
I do not have patience forever.

you don't can fool your customers forever.
for me personal i give a sh.. about any promises, release announcements etc.. planetside makes.
it has just no sense to wait for.

this is a classical "when it's done" company.

I purchased the deep+animation version. but what for? i want real animation tools and NOT JUST IN 3 Years or so.

Maybe that gives you the chance to think about....
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: sjefen on June 23, 2008, 08:53:56 PM
I purchased the deep+animation version. but what for?

Well..... you got it cheap at least ;)
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Revenant on June 23, 2008, 08:57:33 PM
yeah, at least. >:(

i'm just a bit frustrated. i recently continue to use tg after a long break and some things are disturbing me.

i also think that bad things should also be said. ;-) Or is this like renderosity? Where critics are allowed, but they have to be good :D

I don't hope so and i don't think so.


Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on June 23, 2008, 09:23:12 PM
Indeed. It looks a bit like Planetside tries to fool the customers and while I don't think that is actually the case, statements like this
Quote
The length of the delay is uncertain, but should be no more than a few weeks. [...] Until recently we had every reason to believe that the Beta would be ready on time.
from January now sound like a lie.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: jo on June 23, 2008, 11:08:09 PM
Hi,

I believe the memory leak came from something added close to the TP3 release and it then did not get tested as thoroughly as it should have been because, well, it's a similar situation to now really.

The TP4 release is currently being tested by alpha testers as a release candidate. Another fairly important issue has been addressed since that release candidate, so there may be another testing phase before it's released. I'm not going to say when that will be available until we know for certain, suffice to say we won't be releasing this one before we feel it has been sufficiently tested.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Zylot on June 23, 2008, 11:32:40 PM
Completely understandable
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on June 24, 2008, 06:13:16 AM
Hi,

I believe the memory leak came from something added close to the TP3 release and it then did not get tested as thoroughly as it should have been because, well, it's a similar situation to now really.

The TP4 release is currently being tested by alpha testers as a release candidate. Another fairly important issue has been addressed since that release candidate, so there may be another testing phase before it's released. I'm not going to say when that will be available until we know for certain, suffice to say we won't be releasing this one before we feel it has been sufficiently tested.

Regards,

Jo

What kind of issue if I may ask?
These are questions which always come into my mind generally when I read things get postponed etc.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: jo on June 24, 2008, 06:29:03 AM
Hi,

What kind of issue if I may ask?
These are questions which always come into my mind generally when I read things get postponed etc.

The problem was with loading files in some components when the file is using a project relative path. If you read it again, I said the issue had been addressed, which is the another way to say it has been fixed. I also suggested there might be a postponement due to there being another testing phase required for the fix.

Now, if I had said that a fairly important issue had been identified then that would mean that it still needed to be fixed and that could lead to a postponement as it might be hard to track down. That's not what I said. I think if you actually read what I wrote then everything should have been pretty clear. There is no reading between the lines needed there, I said exactly what the situation was.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Kevin F on June 24, 2008, 07:26:38 AM
Hi,

What kind of issue if I may ask?
These are questions which always come into my mind generally when I read things get postponed etc.


 That's not what I said. I think if you actually read what I wrote then everything should have been pretty clear. There is no reading between the lines needed there, I said exactly what the situation was.

Regards,

Jo

Don't make matters worse Jo by replying to a very reasonable question in such a manner. i.e. "That's not what I said." ?? what's not what you said?
or
"I think if you actually read what I wrote......." The Guy did and just asked a simple question, since what you said was not "pretty clear" i.e. what the issue was.

I still can't believe that a product promised in Dec for release in Jan STILL is not ready 6 months later. But hey I have to! since PS has my money.
It would be interesting to see what the UK Office of Fair Trading has to say with regards to selling goods in the UK on future promises that don't materialise. Within the sale of goods act the phrase "reasonably acceptable period" would no doubt be a critical point, and any judgements would be in the customers favour.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on June 24, 2008, 08:17:17 AM
My reply to all the doubters is this:

Why would PS be sitting on TG2 and losing money everyday. Oh it's to scam the earlier adopters, right?

C'mon guys - get real! Just because Santa didn't bring you what you wanted in time for Xmas is no reason to act like unreasonable, demanding kids who throw fits whenever they don't get what the want. Look what happened last time demands were made (I still find that funny, oh the irony :P).

The whole idea behind the Tech Preview was to help-out PS financially while they were in the dev stage. In return, we get an early look-in to that dev process and a cost saving.

So TG2 has taken longer than we all might have wanted (way longer). So what!! It's called software development where it is the NORM. More so in light of the few that PS are. It wouldn't surprise me if they were doing work on the side to keep there heads above water as I cant imagine that a few copies of the Tech Preview could do that for so long now.

So show some understanding - they're people out there who want TG2 released as much as you... they're called Planetside.

Oh, and before you think that I'm some little fanboy, well I do like Terragen (and underdogs)... But I'm as unhappy with the delay(s) as the next person - But what can you do. Bitching ain't gonna make it come faster. Understanding why it might be taking so long does ease the frustration though.

After so long in development NOONE here should be under any illusion about PS when it comes to timescales - irrespective of what PS might say. So if you're on board with the Tech Preview, I'm sorry but you know what you were getting into and IMO have no grounds for complaint. Unless you actually do wish to launch legal proceedings against them and see a good product go down the drain... or maybe you do because you just need to get revenge for being shafted, I don't know.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Kevin F on June 24, 2008, 08:31:33 AM
Quote from Planetside website today:
The final release of Terragen 2 "Deep" and Animation module is scheduled for 2007
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on June 24, 2008, 08:46:14 AM
Yeah - and we all know what PS are like with these sorts of things. Like I said though, exactly how vindictive are you?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Kevin F on June 24, 2008, 09:06:34 AM
Yeah - and we all know what PS are like with these sorts of things. Like I said though, exactly how vindictive are you?

well figure it out - I've been waiting for almost ten years! what do you think?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Moose on June 24, 2008, 09:20:16 AM
I'd think that after the first few of those ten years you'd have wised-up to the way PS does stuff and saved yourself a load of stress - least that's what I did. So you really wish to see Terragen buried?
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Kevin F on June 24, 2008, 09:27:19 AM
I'd think that after the first few of those ten years you'd have wised-up to the way PS does stuff and saved yourself a load of stress - least that's what I did. So you really wish to see Terragen buried?

I did wise up. I'm not stressed - just pissed off. I only use TG for a hobby anyway (no financial interest at all).
You missed my deliberately vague point - if I've waited this long I'm not going to want TG buried. In fact I'm incredibly patient. I raised the trading standards issue as a simple point of interest not a threat. As things stand now PS are selling a product with a completion date of last year. I think they should wise up.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: jo on June 24, 2008, 09:31:57 AM
Hi Kevin,

Don't make matters worse Jo by replying to a very reasonable question in such a manner. i.e. "That's not what I said." ?? what's not what you said?

I didn't mean to cause offense, I apologise if any was taken. Just to straighten it out, "That's not what I said." was referring to sentence preceding i.e. I did not say that a problem had been found/identified. It doesn't help to take it out of context.

Quote
"I think if you actually read what I wrote......." The Guy did and just asked a simple question, since what you said was not "pretty clear" i.e. what the issue was.

I felt that I had already described and exactly the situation regards the TP4 release, and I didn't feel it was necessary to go into detail about what the issue was. That doesn't necessarily give anyone useful further information, interesting perhaps but not useful :-). The poster was bringing up the issue of postponements, when I had already said what the situation was. I thought it was important to clarify that I did actually mean what I said originally, as there seemed to be some question about it despite it being clearly stated.

If it was confusing in my initial post, a "release candidate" is a version which is deemed ready for release, but we still put it through a testing phase in case something unanticipated springs up. It can happen, and experience has shown that even small changes can cause unforeseen problems if they are not tested before releasing to the public. With TP3 that process was rushed when it should been given a bit longer, especially given the magnitude of recent changes and so the memory leak problem got through. We can't just release a version with that fix because we need it to go through a testing process, and there were other important bugs we felt also needed to be fixed before a public release was made.

With normal alpha releases we can carry on going as usual, but release candidates slow us down because we need to be much more careful about what changes. That's one of the reasons we try and get together a decent number of fixes and changes before we start with release candidates. The testing process for release candidates does take some time, alpha testers need to get to grips with something over a reasonable period, and not everyone can drop what they're doing and get testing straight away.  The alpha testers are very helpful to us for making sure silly problems don't get through to the public where they cause more hassle to more people, and it's best not to circumvent that process. It usually works out badly.

We did warn that TP3 was likely to be an unstable release and recommended that people stick with TP2 if that was likely to be a problem.

Quote
I still can't believe that a product promised in Dec for release in Jan STILL is not ready 6 months later.

We've already explained why that was - multithreading. We made the decision that it was too important to not be in the final release, and it was a hard decision to make. It took longer than expected to implement, and it also threw into relief some serious problems with other parts of the renderer which needed to be addressed at the same time. We could have made the decision to go with what we had at the time, and it would have been slower and unstable.

To be straight up and unambiguous about it, with the exception of the memory leak which will be addressed in the TP4 release, the TP3 release is a considerably more advanced application than the application which would have been released in January. Everyone using TP3 is not behind where they would be if TG2 had been made final and released in January. Realistically if TG2 had been tidied up and a final release made then, we would still be where we are today ( probably behind because multithreading would have been put back a month or two ), except the price would have increased already.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Kevin F on June 24, 2008, 10:15:31 AM
Jo, Thanks for the detailed reply.

I accept most of your points, but in my defense your initial reply did have an arrogant tone to it. Still sorted now.

I will take issue though with this:

Quote
I still can't believe that a product promised in Dec for release in Jan STILL is not ready 6 months later.

We've already explained why that was - multithreading. We made the decision that it was too important to not be in the final release, and it was a hard decision to make. It took longer than expected to implement, and it also threw into relief some serious problems with other parts of the renderer which needed to be addressed at the same time. We could have made the decision to go with what we had at the time, and it would have been slower and unstable.


[/quote]

If you read Matt's December announcement :

.....We will be releasing a Beta version of the product on the 4th of January which will include significant improvements not seen in the Technology Previews released so far:

 - Efficient utilisation of multi-core and multi-processor computers for rendering........




Given the dates involved your reply don't wash.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: nikita on June 24, 2008, 10:31:23 AM
Quote
I still can't believe that a product promised in Dec for release in Jan STILL is not ready 6 months later.

We've already explained why that was - multithreading.
But that's not what Matt said back then. He talked about having every reason to believe he can make it on time. And since we're talking about the beta release, that means a version including multi threading and water transparency. Now you're saying that TP3 contains features that wouldn't otherwise have made it into TG2 yet?

All this sounds like the Tech Preview was far from finished when beta release date was announced. It's not as if I wouldn't understand that programming takes time. But this "Let's wait and hopefully they won't notice that we could have never met the release date and the requirements by january anyway." strategy s... is frustrating. It's no big secret anymore so why not just admit it?

I like how TG2 develops and understand that it needed more time than expected - but I can't understand why planetside sticks to such... let's call it half-truths.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: gregsandor on June 24, 2008, 10:57:33 AM
I appreciate all this discussion of timetables and as a Terragen user since version 3 or 4 there are probably few on this board with more interest (and less patience) in getting the new version.  As I only have one core I couldnt care less about multithreading -- I have different uses for TG.   Meanwhile, I see that some of the brightest are in this thread -- will you guys please head over to the thread I posted about animation and help me figure a way around some of the current limitations?  I'm only half-joking here -- I would really appreciate the help. After another cup of coffee I can rephrase this post so we can all have a good laugh about it, but for now this will have to suffice.  I have a project I'd really like to do with TG and am sure the braintrust here can find a way to do it.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: jo on June 24, 2008, 11:12:19 AM
Hi Kevin,

If you read Matt's December announcement :

.....We will be releasing a Beta version of the product on the 4th of January which will include significant improvements not seen in the Technology Previews released so far:

 - Efficient utilisation of multi-core and multi-processor computers for rendering........




Given the dates involved your reply don't wash.

My reply still describes what happened. We felt it was important to include for a beta release ( which is essentially feature complete ), I was mistaken when I said "final", sorry. I believe at the time there was some expectation this would be sorted out. There was however a massive underestimation of the time it would take to implement. Actually the initial effort on it did happen pretty quickly, and it looked promising, but the problem with multithreading is the nitty gritty stuff and the weirdness it can throw up.  It didn't happen the way we hoped, we're not happy things turned out the way they did, but that's how it is. If we hadn't included multithreading the release could have been on time.

And to answer to Nikita, who posted while I was writing this, there was no intent to deceive. Matt thought we would make the beta release date, that's all there is to it. Take it how you want.

And it is true that there is stuff in TP3 that wouldn't have been available for you to use you if we had cut multithreading and released in January. The multithreading is starting to get reasonably stable now. Let's say we'd released the beta in January, that means no major new features would have been added. It may have optimistically taken two months beta testing to get something we thought was ok for release - not an unreasonable amount of time. We would have needed to write some documentation. There would have been a release candidate phase that would have thrown up a few more things which need to be resolved, lets say another few weeks conservatively. Then we would have released, and I personally would have gone on a proper holiday for a bit :-). Then, before we could have started work on the multithreading there would have been a settling in phase where we were fixing bugs ( we'd like there not to be any at that stage, but inevitably something will slip through ) and addressing smaller feature and usability issues people were having with the final release. Not to mention a bunch of other non-development work which would have been needed. That could easily have added another couple of months before we could have started on the multithreading. Hindsight now shows us that it has taken about 6 months to get the multithreading to a reasonably good place, and if you add that on it's pushing us out toward the end of this year. So, if we had cut multithreading to make a January release when we discovered it was going to make things longer, then yes, it very likely would have been toward the end of this year before multithreading was available to users. From a UI perspective I could probably have got most of the things I've added in place and be moving on to new stuff, so in that particular area we would be about where we are regardless, but certainly from an underlying rendering engine perspective we are much further along.

That's not to say it's good we weren't able to release in January with all the features we'd thought, but it is a completely honest assessment of the situation as things stand from my point of view. There is no dissembling or weaseling going on. Second guess it if you will, but from my perspective that is almost certainly how things would have turned out. I'm not trying to deceive anyone by saying there is stuff TG2 is doing right now that it wouldn't have been if it had released in January. Is it how we envisaged things happening back in December? No. Is it all bad? I don't believe so.

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on June 24, 2008, 11:31:43 AM
Planetside (Oshyan, Matt and Jo), maybe you should take time off and get away from all of this for long enough to forget about it and come back with fresh eyesight to see that your repuation is at stake.  I believe you have integrity, but this isn't what is coming through right now.

Jo, while I know you are defending yourself against upset customers and I'm really not all that upset, it doesn't set well for anyone who has paid money for a promised product with promised and locked features to hear "...except the price would have increased already." 

It's easy from our side, since we're on the outside looking in, but that's my point.

I'm being completely serious.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: jo on June 24, 2008, 12:03:51 PM
Hi Calico,

Planetside (Oshyan, Matt and Jo), maybe you should take time off and get away from all of this for long enough to forget about it and come back with fresh eyesight to see that your repuation is at stake.  I believe you have integrity, but this isn't what is coming through right now.

Believe me, we understand the situation. We all wish things were otherwise. There is pretty much nothing you can say which we haven't said ourselves, long ago. Nobody wants a final release out more then we do, really.

Quote
Jo, while I know you are defending yourself against upset customers and I'm really not all that upset, it doesn't set well for anyone who has paid money for a promised product with promised and locked features to hear "...except the price would have increased already."

We have always been clear that when TG2 final is released the price will increase. I think it's fair to say that it was in the back of our minds that promising multithreading and not delivering it is one of the factors in the decision to make sure it was in the final release. I think that's what you are getting at. If we had released TG2 final without multithreading and had to keep it at the current price ( 2.x updates being included in the Pre-Purchase price ), then decided to call a version with multithreading TG3 just so we could put up the price to what we had intended for TG2 final then I think people would have grounds for complaint.

If you're worried about features being locked, they pretty much are now on the track for a beta release. A couple of things which are underway won't be included in the TP4 release, and then after that it's full steam ahead with those and on to a beta, where the emphasis will be on stability, optimisation and working out kinks in the UI.

Anyway, I may have said it once before, some pages back, but this is the last post I'll be making to this thread. I've said far too much already, I'm just a developer not a PR guy ( in case you haven't noticed :-).

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: Tangled-Universe on June 24, 2008, 02:13:19 PM
We have always been clear that when TG2 final is released the price will increase. I think it's fair to say that it was in the back of our minds that promising multithreading and not delivering it is one of the factors in the decision to make sure it was in the final release. I think that's what you are getting at.

How about features like SSS (subsurface scattering) like I asked before (couple of posts ago)? They were announced as well but have disappeared from the site lately.

And what about the other questions from me in that post? Or do I not sound violently enough to invoke answers ;)
The underlying basis for most people's frustration are things like the quote here below but mainly because PS has the tendency to be overly-vague with information or answers or just ignoring questions like in this post from me: http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg44777#msg44777 (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg44777#msg44777)
And lLike the information I asked following your post stating:  http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg44820#msg44820 (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=2942.msg44820#msg44820)

Anyway, I may have said it once before, some pages back, but this is the last post I'll be making to this thread. I've said far too much already, I'm just a developer not a PR guy ( in case you haven't noticed :-).

Regards,

Jo

As an involved person I think you can't turn your back on the people here and walk away this way. They way some people react may not deserve a thorough answer maybe but this is not the way you/ps should cope with this.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: jo on June 24, 2008, 04:22:29 PM
Hi,

As an involved person I think you can't turn your back on the people here and walk away this way. They way some people react may not deserve a thorough answer maybe but this is not the way you/ps should cope with this.

Just so everyone knows, I am an independent contractor and my job is as a developer. I also do Mac specific support, because basically I write all the Mac stuff. I also do about 95% of the Windows specific development ( most of what Matt does is not platform specific ), but I don't do support there because there are others who can handle that, which isn't the case with the Mac support. I am not part of Planetside except as a contractor, and I have no financial interest in the business. Obviously I have a long history with Planetside, getting on for 9 years I guess, and I used to be involved in more aspects of things than I am now.

Due to my long history with Planetside I do feel responsible to users for certain aspects relating to Terragen, even if strictly speaking some of that responsibility is misplaced. I do of course feel responsible for the code I write and I take it very seriously when that does not work as it should. My responsibility there is really to Matt as my client, but of course software is written for people to use and if those people are experiencing problems from something I've written then I feel an obligation to correct that as soon as possible.

If I see something on the forums which I can answer and which has not been dealt with by Oshyan or Matt, then I do my best to answer it. Strictly speaking, I don't have to do this and it's not part of my job, but if I have a spare moment I try to help out. I don't read everything on these forums by any means. If you think something has not been dealt with, and it isn't Mac specific, then that isn't my fault. This is essentially why I said I had probably said too much already, and I would not be contributing further to this thread. In fact I will minimise my involvement with the forums from now on and just reply to threads on support issues. That's not meant to sound petulant, but dealing with this stuff isn't doing anything for my blood pressure :-).

Regards,

Jo
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: gregsandor on June 24, 2008, 05:05:53 PM
Jo I hope you'll be able to help in the animation threads i'll be posting...
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on June 24, 2008, 06:47:16 PM
Does anyone know if Planetside has any external commercial benifactors? I'm not aware of any.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: rcallicotte on June 24, 2008, 07:03:32 PM
I'd be shocked to discover that the Planetside team is living on our purchases of TG2 and TG .9.



Does anyone know if Planetside has any external commercial benifactors? I'm not aware of any.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: neuspadrin on June 24, 2008, 07:39:48 PM
wow, simple question come back next day and theres whole debates and tons of posts on this thread.  wow.

anyways, didn't mean to cause all this commotion, it had just been a bit since you guys gave us an update and was curious how far out the next release was, as a non memory leak version would be awesome.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: PG on June 24, 2008, 08:09:37 PM
It's an annoyance with making software, that as hard as you try there's always going to be this grotesquely pain in the arse bug that clings to your most beloved feature like it hasn't had a cuddle in a while. But whilst most software developers throw a few thousand pounds and an elite brigade of programmers and testers at their application to silence the bleeting lambs, planetside is a relatively tiny company with, as we've just been told by Jo, only one resident programmer and this isn't really adequate for a program that makes Flight Simulator X look like it was made by an elite brigade of the stupid army. So while I am also in favour of a fix to the memory leak I can also see that being constantly whined at for something that you know full well you need to release is, to partially quote Yahtzee, about as motivating as being slapped in the balls with your own dead dog.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: JimB on June 24, 2008, 08:24:12 PM
 ;D  Beautifully put.
Title: Re: Terragen 2 Release Announcement Discussion
Post by: mindsap on June 25, 2008, 04:37:34 AM
Amen brother.